Bob Blues Posted December 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) Well Picked the Tesla up today and had the lecture about charging every night. I mentioned I was on a NB and although living in a Marina it is difficult to charge every night. The supercharger is only 2 miles from my G/F house so I will pop it there when it needs a charge. I am currently running at 340 W/mile. Putting the heater on full to de-mist the windows use 2 miles of range and putting my foot down hard did not deplete the range so I think lithium batteries could be the answers this brings me back to the original post, How can I fit this techonology to a NB I can see huge opportunities. A 90KW battery on a NB I believe could go for days with out charging. Bob Edited December 3, 2016 by Bob Blues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 As I see it, the biggest problem with this technology on the cut would be the lack of 120kW charging points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 How can I fit this techonology to a NB I can see huge opportunities. A 90KW battery on a NB I believe could go for days with out charging. Flipping it around, unless you can figure out how to fit this technology into a narrowboat there are no opportunities. No-one has managed it yet, I don't think. How will you charge the 90kW battery? This is a beginning and end of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 How will you charge the 90kW battery? This is a beginning and end of the story. Absolutely. See my post above yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Ford/VW in fact all the major manufactures announced the other day that they were funding fast chargers across Europe and the UK. Now we all know that diesel cars will be out of production very shortly, and most likely banned from city centers within the next couple of years so the question is how long do we have with our boat engines? Not very long I think the answer is, before we start paying huge amounts for our fuel. Electric boats will be the norm soon and power points will start to appear on the cut. I was reading that fusion power is now within our grasp so oil will be something that we use in manufacturing not to power vehicles.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Electric cars are surely a sideways step rather than progress. There appear to be two problems apparently ignored by the politicians 1) The electricity has to be generated somewhere and currently we don't have the capacity. We are busily shutting down coal and gas fired power stations and replacing them with nothing. We are struggling to generate enough for current needs let alone generating the massive energy needed to charge several million electric cars. 2) Assuming we struggle on with carbon based electricity generation then electric cars raise pollution, not reduce it. Its far more fuel-efficient to burn the carbon based fuel in the car than at a power station 150 miles away. Electricity transmission efficiency can be as low as 30% IIRC. 3) Even if we switch to nuclear power it won't come on line for a decade or two, while the rush for electric cars seems to be planned to start immediately. Ok that was three... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Payne Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 If only we lived in a place where the sun was present all year round.... http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/tesla-powered-an-entire-island-with-solar-energy/vi-AAkDA2C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 If only we lived in a place where the sun was present all year round.... http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/tesla-powered-an-entire-island-with-solar-energy/vi-AAkDA2C I haven't done the calcs, but I doubt a solar farm would keep more than a few electric cars on the road. Not 30 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Blues Posted December 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 I have seen quite a few Solar powered boats powered boats so a few years ago when I looked at the Solar Boat Co, they put 1000w of solar panels on the roof. I think with todays technology and improvements in Solar panels I could get to close to 2KW in the same space so this would be the main charger. Yes I know that the chances of getting anywhere near 2KW of energy in the UK is remote but even with the Solar Boat Co, they reckoned on 1500 miles a year and that was with a small battery bank and 1000x of solar. My original intentions was too use 24 * 1000Ah Lead Acid batteries powering a Lynch motor but with advancements in Lithium-ion 18650 3.7 battery I could build up a 45Kw bank and quite happily power a Lynch motor charging from mains power through a mastervolt 48V combi and solar when Im out. Re Cost: The Lead acid bank from Bimble Solar is circa 4k The cheapest I have seen for LI bats are 4 x 5.8a 3.7 18650 are about £8 So I recon I need 13 bats for 48v at 5.8A or 278w at £26 per bank so thats 161 banks to give 45Kw at that cost is £4193. If the batteries work then I see these will last longer and be more efficient. Bob Please feel free to slate and correct my maths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearley Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Ford/VW in fact all the major manufactures announced the other day that they were funding fast chargers across Europe and the UK. Now we all know that diesel cars will be out of production very shortly, and most likely banned from city centers within the next couple of years so the question is how long do we have with our boat engines? Not very long I think the answer is, before we start paying huge amounts for our fuel. Electric boats will be the norm soon and power points will start to appear on the cut. I was reading that fusion power is now within our grasp so oil will be something that we use in manufacturing not to power vehicles.............. The average motorway service area has parking for a few hundred cars but I've only ever seen them with 2 charging points. In Birmingham there are 2 charging points by the cathedral but most days they are occupied by the same 2 cars. Do electric car drivers pay for the recharge and are they exempt from the parking charges other drivers in that area pay. Can they provide charging points quick enough to provide for this expected huge increase in electric cars. And charging points for electric boats? As far as I know, they are still arguing over who is going to pay for the installation of electric points at Islington Visitor Moorings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 I have seen quite a few Solar powered boats powered boats so a few years ago when I looked at the Solar Boat Co, they put 1000w of solar panels on the roof. I think with todays technology and improvements in Solar panels I could get to close to 2KW in the same space so this would be the main charger. Yes I know that the chances of getting anywhere near 2KW of energy in the UK is remote but even with the Solar Boat Co, they reckoned on 1500 miles a year and that was with a small battery bank and 1000x of solar. My original intentions was too use 24 * 1000Ah Lead Acid batteries powering a Lynch motor but with advancements in Lithium-ion 18650 3.7 battery I could build up a 45Kw bank and quite happily power a Lynch motor charging from mains power through a mastervolt 48V combi and solar when Im out. Re Cost: The Lead acid bank from Bimble Solar is circa 4k The cheapest I have seen for LI bats are 4 x 5.8a 3.7 18650 are about £8 So I recon I need 13 bats for 48v at 5.8A or 278w at £26 per bank so thats 161 banks to give 45Kw at that cost is £4193. If the batteries work then I see these will last longer and be more efficient. Bob Please feel free to slate and correct my maths I can't see any maths in there to correct. Just a load of assumptions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Electric cars are surely a sideways step rather than progress. There appear to be two problems apparently ignored by the politicians 1) The electricity has to be generated somewhere and currently we don't have the capacity. We are busily shutting down coal and gas fired power stations and replacing them with nothing. We are struggling to generate enough for current needs let alone generating the massive energy needed to charge several million electric cars. 2) Assuming we struggle on with carbon based electricity generation then electric cars raise pollution, not reduce it. Its far more fuel-efficient to burn the carbon based fuel in the car than at a power station 150 miles away. Electricity transmission efficiency can be as low as 30% IIRC. 3) Even if we switch to nuclear power it won't come on line for a decade or two, while the rush for electric cars seems to be planned to start immediately. Ok that was three... Mike, I think 30% is too high but, I suppose it depends which losses to include. Good ole Wikipedia produced an interesting article on losses within the National Grid and the overall figure was 2.3% in the grid and 7.7% in the distribution system. But your point about electric cars increasing pollution is excellent (not many people know this). I believe the latest technology for high voltage transmission lines is now DC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 It doesnt mater how much you kick and shout its going to happen. The major manufacturers are putting in charging points. Germany is going to end production of IC cars. Renault are stopping production of diesels along with Jaguar. These things along with the Government losing the second court case about city pollution caused by diesels are a turning point. I have sold some of my classic cars recently whilst the demand is there and prices are high, Fusion is under 10 years from being a reality so Mike your nice old vintage engine will be replace by a quiet electric motor and battery bank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Blues Posted December 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 I can't see any maths in there to correct. Just a load of assumptions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Mike, I think 30% is too high but, I suppose it depends which losses to include. Good ole Wikipedia produced an interesting article on losses within the National Grid and the overall figure was 2.3% in the grid and 7.7% in the distribution system. But your point about electric cars increasing pollution is excellent (not many people know this). I believe the latest technology for high voltage transmission lines is now DC! You may make more pollution with an electric car, but you don't release it in the cities where people are dying prematurely because of air pollution. So short term we make more pollution in the countryside which will blow away. Which is better than killing city folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 The average motorway service area has parking for a few hundred cars but I've only ever seen them with 2 charging points. In Birmingham there are 2 charging points by the cathedral but most days they are occupied by the same 2 cars. Do electric car drivers pay for the recharge and are they exempt from the parking charges other drivers in that area pay. Can they provide charging points quick enough to provide for this expected huge increase in electric cars. And charging points for electric boats? As far as I know, they are still arguing over who is going to pay for the installation of electric points at Islington Visitor Moorings. I suspect that only 2 points are provided because that's the max power that can be supplied. A motorway charging station would need to be supplied via a line of pylons to cope with demand, even if batts could be changed on the spot the discharged ones would have to recharged on site, defeats the object to transport them for recharge. You can install any number of charging points but without the infrastructure they are a waste of space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 How much power would be needed to convert all cars and lorries to electric? Using ball park figures - there are about 35 million vehicles in the UK. I'm guessing the average engine consumption of the order of 50kW. Let's give them a duty cycle 2 hours per day (could be out a bit here!) That's an average load of 145GW. Roughly 40 nuclear power stations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 I suspect that only 2 points are provided because that's the max power that can be supplied. A motorway charging station would need to be supplied via a line of pylons to cope with demand, even if batts could be changed on the spot the discharged ones would have to recharged on site, defeats the object to transport them for recharge. You can install any number of charging points but without the infrastructure they are a waste of space. This is related to my point earlier. You can install as many charging points as you like but the infrastructure to supply them with sufficient electricity doesn't exist. Politicians are ignoring this. You may make more pollution with an electric car, but you don't release it in the cities where people are dying prematurely because of air pollution. So short term we make more pollution in the countryside which will blow away. Which is better than killing city folk. Now you're mixing apples with pears. Burning diesel in cars in cities causes particulate polution that kills people. Burning gas and coal in the countryside still creates CO2 (in larger quantities) which still hangs around in the atmosphere causing the greenhouse effect after it has 'blown away', even if particulates are filtered out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 How much power would be needed to convert all cars and lorries to electric? Using ball park figures - there are about 35 million vehicles in the UK. I'm guessing the average engine consumption of the order of 50kW. Let's give them a duty cycle 2 hours per day (could be out a bit here!) That's an average load of 145GW. Roughly 40 nuclear power stations! I read somewhere it would take roughly 150 reactors to supply all of our energy needs in the UK. I'll see if I can find the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 How much power would be needed to convert all cars and lorries to electric? Using ball park figures - there are about 35 million vehicles in the UK. I'm guessing the average engine consumption of the order of 50kW. Let's give them a duty cycle 2 hours per day (could be out a bit here!) That's an average load of 145GW. Roughly 40 nuclear power stations! Once you get down to the basic maths electric vehicles on a mass scale just doesn't add up, it ignores the density of energy in petrol and diesel. Maybe recharge battery banks en mass with a humungus diesel genny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 As a cross check I found that we import 9.3 million tonnes of petrol and diesel a year. With a HCV of 45,000KJ/kg that would give a power output of about 13GW. so the true figure might be similar in magnitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Oops. Petrol and diesel consumption for road vehicles is about 35 million tonnes a year because we produce a lot from the North Sea so the estimated power to replace engines with motors should be closer to 50GW. My previous guestimate was based on imported fuels. Yes, I've got too much time on my hands! But I enjoy estimating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Oops. Petrol and diesel consumption for road vehicles is about 35 million tonnes a year because we produce a lot from the North Sea so the estimated power to replace engines with motors should be closer to 50GW. My previous guestimate was based on imported fuels. Yes, I've got too much time on my hands! But I enjoy estimating. And you seem pretty good at estimating too, to me. Here's a challenge for you to estimate though. What is your estimate of how long it will take the politicians pushing this headlong rush to electric vehicles to come to realise it isn't going to happen (for the reasons we've been discussing)? And do you think this will happen before of after they've made the vehicle manufacturers ramp down production of IC engines? Once there are more electric cars out there than charging capacity (pretty soon) then demand for petrol and diesel cars will return and if production is being reduced, working second hand vehicle values are gonna rocket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted December 4, 2016 Report Share Posted December 4, 2016 Shall I treat your post as rhetorical? I can't compute the answer to your puzzle. Thanks for the compliment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted December 5, 2016 Report Share Posted December 5, 2016 The battery technology that i beleive is best suited to automotive use is the aluminium air battery. It has an energy density about 8 times higher than lion, giving about vehicle a range of 300-500 miles. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery However, like the fuel cell, it seems to be taking a long time to reach economic production. I have known of these batteries for over 20 years, and the mantra "production is imminent" has been around as long. Unlike lead acid or lion batteries, they are primary cells and thus cannot be recharged. However the materials used are very recyclable, so the battery would be swapped for a new one when expired and the old one recycled. Where the additional energy would come from to produce and recycle these batteries is about other sticking point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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