Help My Boat Choice

[MissMax]

List of boats i have found online. Not in any order

 

 

Can you please give me some advice, tips, hints on what the good or bad points about these boats. They are not in order and the price is varied. They are just ones i like the

look of and feel i could live inside them.

 

Thank you

 

 

Cons I will have to change the toilet and shower

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3643.aspx

 

 

I will have no money for a survey, but it looks pretty

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/3010web/3010abnb.php?BoatID=3010

 

 

It's light blue

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/2876web/2876abnb.php?BoatID=2876

 

 

 

It's MASSIVE, no money left for survey

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/3015web/3015abnb.php?BoatID=3015

 

 

 

Cost of Bathroom and Kitchen, plus extra may be to much

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=480917

 

 

 

Need to remove the green bathroom suite and defo do the hull (but the kitchen is lovely)

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3690.aspx

 

 

 

Toilet needs changing but other wise yes (It's very cheap)

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=480076

 

 

 

Need to redo the shower and toilet room.

http://bristol.boatshed.com/narrowboat_36ft-boat-220040.html

 

 

 

 

No hand sink in bathroom, need to change kitchen sink, not much money left for survey add extras

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3668.aspx

 

 

 

 

Absolutely no money left for anything (not even pie)

http://www.abcboatsales.com/boat-sales/dihangfa/

 

 

 

 

Need to do bathroom

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=453553

 

 

 

No money left over (but it's so pretty)

http://pdfs.abnb.co.uk/3015abnb.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

[New to this]

some interesting ones in there, you need to get out and see some in the flesh

[bizzard]

some interesting ones in there, you need to get out and see some in the flesh

I really do think she ought to put some clothes on though.

[MissMax]

I really do think she ought to put some clothes on though.

I'm practicing owning a boat

 

I thought you lady chaps and man chaps could use your boaty 5th sense skills to tell me if any of these look like they need lots of money thrown at them

Edited July 16, 2016 by MissMax

[MtB]

Yes. Best advice is go and look at them. The ones you like best will not be ones you expect.

 

And conversely, the one you think looks GREAT in the advert will just not move you. Probably.

In addition, although you might decide in advance you want a trad stern boat with pump out and portholes, the boat that moves you enough to get your cheque book out will prolly be cruiser stern, cassette bog with bus windows. See if I'm right!

[New to this]

I'm practicing owning a boat

 

I thought you lady chaps and man chaps could use your boaty 5th sense skills to tell me if any of these look like they need lots of money thrown at them

hang in a nudist boater, best have thick curtains

[Stewart Kirby]

List of boats i have found online. Not in any order

 

 

Can you please give me some advice, tips, hints on what the good or bad points about these boats. They are not in order and the price is varied. They are just ones i like the

look of and feel i could live inside them.

 

You say on some of these "no money for survey" but some insurance companies insist on a survey if the boat is over 20 years old. However, of the boats shown I would only be interested in Sailor Vee and Dihangfa. I see a few have been overplayed, done well this causes me no worries, but you need a survey to make sure it has been well done.

Go and have a look at some of them, kick some tyres, in my experience the adverts show the boat looking OK but when you see it in the flesh it's different.

 

Also, the prices are the asking prices, don't be afraid to offer less and make sure your offer is subject to a positive survey. Be careful with one of the advertisers, they often own the boat and guide you to use a surveyor from their list, this can cause problems, especially if you pay a deposit before the survey.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Stewart Kirby

[Captain Pegg]

List of boats i have found online. Not in any order

 

 

Can you please give me some advice, tips, hints on what the good or bad points about these boats. They are not in order and the price is varied. They are just ones i like the

look of and feel i could live inside them.

 

Thank you

 

 

Cons I will have to change the toilet and shower

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3643.aspx

 

 

I will have no money for a survey, but it looks pretty

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/3010web/3010abnb.php?BoatID=3010

 

 

It's light blue

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/2876web/2876abnb.php?BoatID=2876

 

 

 

It's MASSIVE, no money left for survey

http://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/3015web/3015abnb.php?BoatID=3015

 

 

 

Cost of Bathroom and Kitchen, plus extra may be to much

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=480917

 

 

 

Need to remove the green bathroom suite and defo do the hull (but the kitchen is lovely)

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3690.aspx

 

 

 

Toilet needs changing but other wise yes (It's very cheap)

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=480076

 

 

 

Need to redo the shower and toilet room.

http://bristol.boatshed.com/narrowboat_36ft-boat-220040.html

 

 

 

 

No hand sink in bathroom, need to change kitchen sink, not much money left for survey add extras

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3668.aspx

 

 

 

 

Absolutely no money left for anything (not even pie)

http://www.abcboatsales.com/boat-sales/dihangfa/

 

 

 

 

Need to do bathroom

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=453553

 

 

 

No money left over (but it's so pretty)

http://pdfs.abnb.co.uk/3015abnb.pdf

 

 

It will take a while to look through them all but for starters rule out the abc boat sales one at Goytre Wharf. That's on an isolated waterway and you say will take all your money but it would need to be moved by road to wherever you want to be (assuming that isn't Monmouthshire or Brecon). The boat Treskelly at Whilton has some mention of overplating needed but it is a 1993 boat. I suspect it really shouldn't need it at that age so I would be cautious about the care that boat has been subject to.

 

ABNB are a high end broker so if you can afford their low end boats that may be a good bet even if they are at the top of your range. It may just work out better in the long run but do remember you may not have to pay the asking price and if you can get a sale below it will be you can put toward a survey.

 

Will have a look at the others and see if I can find anything else.

 

JP

[MissMax]

Really appreciate your help. Thank you everyone, and thanks for the advice on ones to avoid

 

I don't drive so i thought i would ask the forum for advice so i don't spend all my cash on taxi and train fares, just to be disappointed.

Edited July 16, 2016 by MissMax

[New to this]

Really appreciate your help. Thank you everyone, and thanks for the advice on ones to avoid

 

I don't drive so i thought i would ask the forum for advice so i don't spend all my cash on taxi and train fares, just to be disappointed.

check your mail

[Captain Pegg]

A couple of other things I have noticed are that some of the boats don't have permanent beds and others don't have power set ups for a live aboard.

 

Thyme at Whilton Marina appears to be 12v only and Adam's Ale at Great Haywood is 240v only via landline not an inverter I think. There are reasons why these two boats are cheaper than others on your list. You can get a good buy but beware of what appears to be a bargain.

 

Look for a good hull and get it confirmed by a survey. At least one of the boats appears to have a 6mm baseplate which is potentially an indicator of expensive structural work needed in the foreseeable future. Some folks will say you shouldn't buy an overplated hull but that's the method for repairing and thickening a 6mm thick hull on an old leisure boat. Back in the 60s and 70s a 6mm baseplate was the standard whereas it's now 10mm. I have a 1969 hull of 6mm (actually 1/4" for the old timers) which had a further 6mm added in 1987.

 

You may find that your expenses after purchase will be focused on the fabric of the boat and its systems. For that reason steering clear of boats that need immediate expenditure on the fit out may be best.

 

The permanent bed thing is a matter of personal choice but I suspect you will at least need a boat where the make-up bed could be pretty much permanently made up without getting in the way. Otherwise going to bed will become a chore and that's no fun.

 

JP

[Bobbybass]

Never ever buy a boat without a survey...

 

Remember..brokers only want to sell boats...they do not get involved in 'waterworthyness'....

If I want to sell a boat (and I have a few)...you paint them up....varnish the nice bits...and pray for someone who has no money for a survey..

[Captain Pegg]

Never ever buy a boat without a survey...

 

Remember..brokers only want to sell boats...they do not get involved in 'waterworthyness'....

If I want to sell a boat (and I have a few)...you paint them up....varnish the nice bits...and pray for someone who has no money for a survey..

While I generally agree with your first point, I would have to take issue with the second.

 

Your comments actually seem to be reflecting your own attitude to selling a boat onto all brokers. Good businesses sell honestly and they know that selling a bad product is a poor business model. That's why they survive and hopefully flourish. My experience of brokers is one of them faciltating surveys.

 

JP

Edited July 17, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[MtB]

Never ever buy a boat without a survey...

 

Remember..brokers only want to sell boats...they do not get involved in 'waterworthyness'....

If I want to sell a boat (and I have a few)...you paint them up....varnish the nice bits...and pray for someone who has no money for a survey..

 

 

I don't agree with this highlighted bit. The rest of youre advice is spot on though.

 

I've never had a survey done when purchasing any of my boats. A surveyor will load the dice in your favour but if he makes a mistake and overlooks something, it's YOU who carries the can.

 

So far better to get yourself an education and check out the boat yourself in my opinion. Most of what a surveyor charges £500 to tell you can be seen for yourself, if you care to look.

 

 

(Edit to add some missing punctuation.)

Your comments actually seem to be suggesting that you lack scruples but are casting that aspersion onto brokers. Good businesses sell honestly and they know that selling a bad product is a poor business model. That's why they survive and hopefully flourish. My experience of brokers is one of them faciltating surveys.

 

 

I took Mr Bass to be pointing out that there are plenty of boat sellers out there with scruples similar to his own, so beware!

Edited July 17, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Captain Pegg]

I took Mr Bass to be pointing out that there are plenty of boat sellers out there with scruples similar to his own, so beware!

Maybe. In which case he is being very honest. I just took it at the face value of the words I read. I have slightly edited my post to be a bit less accusatory.

 

Although my own experience of brokers isn't 100% positive I wouldn't be comfortable saying to someone who is a novice "don't trust professional opinion". That's seems pretty irresponsible to me.

 

Take my previous example I posted I think in response to another query from MissMax where I said that my survey highlighted a deficiency in the exhausting of flue gases from my water heater. Imagine a novice buyer takes the 'advice' not to have a survey absolutely literally and then ends up with carbon monoxide poisoning?

 

Trouble with the Internet is that it's difficult to weed out those with sound professional advice from the well intended but terminally hard of thinking folk. That can be done by going through regulated channels. I don't post my questions on here; I PM the person that I know to be professional in the field.

 

JP

Edited July 17, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Alan de Enfield]

........ Good businesses sell honestly and they know that selling a bad product is a poor business model. That's why they survive and hopefully flourish.

 

It seems to work OK for Whilton.

 

I would suggest that most boat brokers will only see their 'customer' once - whilst there is a flood of newbies buying boats then there is an 'unlimited supply' of first time buyers(many heading for London)

[MtB]

Although my own experience of brokers isn't 100% positive I wouldn't be comfortable saying to someone who is a novice "don't trust professional opinion". That's seems pretty irresponsible to me.

 

 

There are plenty of accounts on here where a surveyor has missed something far more expensive to fix than a gas heater flue. Further, the benefit of a survey including testing a gas heater flue is a side issue. Not all surveyors include flue testing in their surveys. People get a survey because they want it to reveal serious stuctural faults with the hull of a boat, and we know for a fact they get missed sometimes in surveys.

 

So I think it is equally irresponsible to a new person to say "you can trust a professional opinion". You simpy can't. My own industry is a good exapmple. Poor quality and incomplete advice from Gas Safe Registered plumbers to their customers is rife.

[Sea Dog]

 

So far better to get yourself an education and check out the boat yourself in my opinion. Most of what a surveyor charges £500 to tell you can be seen for yourself, if you care to look.

 

Correct in theory Mike but, if you'll forgive me, I think you're underestimating the development of an "engineer's eye". Easy to do, as defects or poor workmanship are often as plain as the nose on your face to those who have the eye, you and others here amongst them. Not so for those who haven't yet developed one and, frankly, most folks never will, either through lack of the necessary experience or the bent for engineering. For them, a good, independent surveyor or a trusted friend with the eye is the only alternative to buying on trust.

 

I spent many years mentoring and assessing technicians and engineers and was continually amazed at some of the things that caught out even the very good ones. Hell, I've been amazed at some of the things that catch or have caught me out, but I'm grateful for my engineer's eye which at least ensures that it's relatively rare.

 

So, whilst your general drift is fair enough, I think the layman is really up against it, particularly where boats are involved!

[boathunter]

I like to think I'm a practical chap. I was a mechanical/ structural design engineer for two decades, then mended and mechanic'ed rusty old classic cars for a decade. Before I bought a boat I spent 4-5 years educating myself as best I could about all things narrowboat. Then I bought without survey. 2 points.

 

I remember very well when I first started my schooling and if I'd bought back then I'd certainly have had a survey because trying to take in all aspects of a boat would have been too much.

 

After looking for a while, what I originally thought would suit me, a long list of "features" on a 70ft boat, got 20ft shorter and all the technical features dwindled to "more boaty than flat-like", plank lining rather than sheets of ply, homely, and a full length permanent bed. But the main thing was that the previous owner had maintained it rather than freshened it up for the sale.

[MtB]

Correct in theory Mike but, if you'll forgive me, I think you're underestimating the development of an "engineer's eye". Easy to do, as defects or poor workmanship are often as plain as the nose on your face to those who have the eye, you and others here amongst them. Not so for those who haven't yet developed one and, frankly, most folks never will, either through lack of the necessary experience or the bent for engineering. For them, a good, independent surveyor or a trusted friend with the eye is the only alternative to buying on trust.

 

I spent many years mentoring and assessing technicians and engineers and was continually amazed at some of the things that caught out even the very good ones. Hell, I've been amazed at some of the things that catch or have caught me out, but I'm grateful for my engineer's eye which at least ensures that it's relatively rare.

 

So, whilst your general drift is fair enough, I think the layman is really up against it, particularly where boats are involved!

 

 

Yes I undestand and agree with what you say here.

 

But equally we see peeps on here given the bald, unquailfied assertion they 'MUST get a survey', with no explanation of what they can and cannot expect from one. A poster here a few months ago had 'get a survey' on her list of things to do when buying the boat as though it was an administrative detail to be ticked off the list like getting insurance and a licence. A lot of new peeps see it like this I suspect, when faced with an avalanche of posters saying "GET A SURVEY". Just a box to be ticked.

 

In fact a survey is only as good as the instruction you give the surveyor. Failing to attend the survey and discuss the boat in depth with him is, for example, a route to a pointless survey.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Captain Pegg]

There are plenty of accounts on here where a surveyor has missed something far more expensive to fix than a gas heater flue. Further, the benefit of a survey including testing a gas heater flue is a side issue. Not all surveyors include flue testing in their surveys. People get a survey because they want it to reveal serious stuctural faults with the hull of a boat, and we know for a fact they get missed sometimes in surveys.

 

So I think it is equally irresponsible to a new person to say "you can trust a professional opinion". You simpy can't. My own industry is a good exapmple. Poor quality and incomplete advice from Gas Safe Registered plumbers to their customers is rife.

 

My work also tells me that you have no guarantees from a professional hence I didn't say it was a failsafe. On the flip side however I do have some pretty major experience of what happens when you fail to properly inspect and maintain stuff. By engaging a surveyor - and buying through a broker for that matter - you are taking resonable steps toward reducing your own risk and providing a degree of legal back-up. You will also get someone who can measure things not just guess at them. My advice would be to take those steps. Particularly if you won't be able to afford remedies afterwards.

 

I suspect you are familiar which Red Adair's views on professionals and Einstein's on common sense? I subscribe to both.

 

JP

[cuthound]

One often overlooked advantage in having a survey (and attending) for a first time buyer, is that of seeing how the various systems are operated, as well as piece of mind re hull thickness etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

. By engaging a surveyor - and buying through a broker for that matter - you are taking resonable steps toward reducing your own risk and providing a degree of legal back-up.

 

From personal experience I beg to differ.

 

A broker offers no legal 'back-up' or 'security' to a buyer, they do not have to meet or comply with the ''Sale of Goods Act', they do not have to ensure that the boat is 'Fit For Purpose' and their ONLY roll is as a 'marriage broker' introducing the seller to a potential buyer.

 

The broker cannot (and does not have to) ensure that the boat is owned by the seller, or confirm that the sellers description is correct, they do not have to mention it has bee overplated, or needs overplating, or even if the hull is holed, the broker does not even have to write the 'selling details' correctly - they can purely say something like "check it out yourself".

 

Surveyosr can and do make mistakes, surveyors may just do 'the job' with little attention to detail. the survey will be written with various caveats which basically mean that you have no 'legal come back'.

 

I had a boat surveyed (full surveys of 'Hull, Engines and equipment' costing over £1000) which received a 'glowing report'. Within hours of purchase I found a whole host of faults, the least of which, was it was almost impossible to engage neutral, the most severe being the need to spend £20,000+ to get the boat 'seaworthy'. After failing to get satisfaction from the Surveyor I engaged a firm of Marine Solicitors, who, having read the Survey T&Cs, told me not to waste any more money on legal efforts as it was a guaranteed failure. Mend the boat and get on with life.

 

I realise that others have very different experiences but what both MtB and myself are saying is :

 

Do not see a survey as the 'answer' - it may be a general indication of condition but it is no guarantee.

 

Caveat Emptor.

[Captain Pegg]

One often overlooked advantage in having a survey (and attending) for a first time buyer, is that of seeing how the various systems are operated, as well as piece of mind re hull thickness etc.

That's a good point. The survey report will also give you a description of those systems stating what they are, how they are configured and how they operate. At least mine does. And for the record I only commisioned an internal survey. I had the sellers pre-sale hull condition survey transferred into my name for a nominal fee. The boat has very good provenance and I was happy to do this.

 

JP

[RLWP]

List of boats i have found online.

 

OK, time to be blunt

 

This is great fun - it's part of the process. We did this when we bought our boat. And in the end it's practically pointless

 

Some of the boats you listed won't have some of the things you don't know you need. Some of the boats will have things you never knew were essential to you. Some will no longer be for sale. Some will have truly horrible sellers

 

Pretty soon, you are going to have to leave this phase and go and look at real boats. Fantasy boat shopping is endlessly fascinating and we all do it. Real boat shopping is very different and far more practical

 

Turn your computer off and go and stand in some boats. Bet you find the ones you thought you wanted disappoint and ones you rejected begin to be attractive

 

Richard