new mooring t&c's

[magnetman]

Edited

Edited May 23, 2016 by magnetman

[magnetman]

 

I really cannot see the problem - where is all the 'new changes' about Council tax, eviction of liveaboards etc etc ?

 

Where is the 'new change' stating that you cannot use the mooring as your primary residence - was it really there all the time ?

 

Maybe a bit of scaremongering going on methinks.

Probably. Sorry about that !!

[Chewbacka]

 

I really cannot see the problem - where is all the 'new changes' about Council tax, eviction of liveaboards etc etc ?

 

Where is the 'new change' stating that you cannot use the mooring as your primary residence - was it really there all the time ?

 

Maybe a bit of scaremongering going on methinks.

My feeling on this is that if you live quietly and without bothering anybody then there (I hope) wont be any problems, but if you make a nuisance for example having stuff over the tow path, making lots of dust or noise whilst working on the boat, then these things are specifically forbidden without consent. So I think it will be much easier to evict people from moorings that annoy their neighbours (including nearby houses). How much CRT take the boaters side and how much the local houses remains to be seen - so for example could CRT terminate your agreement if you continue too emit much smoke burning damp wood in the winter? Personally if I had a boat moored close to my house that burnt treated or damp wood emitting lots of smoke over me then I would be upset, so I don't see too much wrong with this.

[magnetman]

In answer to Alan's question "And the key changes are ?" -

 

The changes in the document basically cover the following - their document is 6 pages long, so this is my brief summary

 

1) now called Waterside Mooring

2) You can only buy it now or bid on the auction if you accept the T&Cs

3) Cancellation rights and termination of mooring agreement by us

4) You can not move onto a mooring until CRT say so, and if you do the 'overstay charge' applicable

5) that CRT can enter your boat and move it if you are in breach of the mooring T&Cs mainly related to being on them when not paying.

6) no business purposes on the mooring without consent

7) can not transfer mooring upon death, but a spouse/civil partner can apply to use it for the remains of the period

8) agree to the 'overstay charges' if you are on the mooring when you should not - basically before the mooring term starts or after it ends, including if terminated early. Charges will be on the website and posted at the mooring site.

9) Complaints and disputes process.

Completely disagree with 7) if its a residential mooring ! OK so you have to burn or bury a stiff but security of tenure for a home is fairly important as well

 

(Your red text disappeared from the quoted text not quite sure why)

 

Oh that's because it wasn't your text !!

 

Anyway hopefully I'm making sense (as if)

Edited May 23, 2016 by magnetman

[David Mack]

Completely disagree with 7) if its a residential mooring ! OK so you have to burn or bury a stiff but security of tenure for a home is fairly important as well

But nobody on a residential mooring anywhere in the UK has security of tenure. Any mooring provider can end the mooring agreement (or hike the rent as much as they like) at the expiry of the fixed term, or if there is no fixed term, on giving the appropriate notice (usually equal to the frequency of rent payment). So this is nothing new.

 

At least with a boat you can generally take your home elsewhere, which is more than a bricks-and-mortar dweller can do.

Edited May 23, 2016 by David Mack

[Lady Muck]

Nobody has yet mention this: I have a CaRT Leisure mooring in a CaRT marina. A small number of the moorings are specifically Residential - you can spot them because they have a more powerful electricity supply and they have a phone line. Now... about a year ago the electricity bollards were replaced with a new computerised system. You pay for your electricity online and... wait for it - CaRT can now see your consumption patterns at a glance. It could make it very difficult to live on a leisure mooring!

they knew anyway, I always had to provide my boat name and mooring site every time I bought electricity cards.

 

10 years uninterrupted use.

its more like 30 or 40 years of uninterrupted use, round here.

[Graham Davis]

Completely disagree with 7) if its a residential mooring ! OK so you have to burn or bury a stiff but security of tenure for a home is fairly important as well

 

A similar clause can often be found in Council House tenancies and in Park Homes tenancies, so why not boats?

[Lady Muck]

My feeling on this is that if you live quietly and without bothering anybody then there (I hope) wont be any problems, but if you make a nuisance for example having stuff over the tow path, making lots of dust or noise whilst working on the boat, then these things are specifically forbidden without consent. So I think it will be much easier to evict people from moorings that annoy their neighbours (including nearby houses). How much CRT take the boaters side and how much the local houses remains to be seen - so for example could CRT terminate your agreement if you continue too emit much smoke burning damp wood in the winter? Personally if I had a boat moored close to my house that burnt treated or damp wood emitting lots of smoke over me then I would be upset, so I don't see too much wrong with this.

If we are talking London area leisure moorings, then I can think of only two sites (Uxbridge and Hackney Wick) that are towpath and neither of them are anywhere near houses. I can't think of any leisure moorings *at all* that are near enough to houses for them to be able to smell smoke or hear gennies. There are some on the lower Lea opposite flats but have you seen how wide the lea is at that point? Most of the Lea ones are offside and not near houses, most of the Stort ones are, too, (including the private moorings), the only ones in town that are leisure (I think) are at Lisson wide and they are not near anything at all unless you count that huge ugly power station.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lady Muck

[magnetman]

 

A similar clause can often be found in Council House tenancies and in Park Homes tenancies, so why not boats?

I know there is no security of tenure with boats - a bit like life -one might get run over by a coach anyway.

 

Council houses are a completely different matter as they are not subject to normal market forces and should be allocated to those in need in theory I didn't realise they did it with park homes though. So if someone had a parent in a mobile home on a park home site the parent dies then the beneficiary of the will would have to sell the mobile home but not allowed to sell it to themselves ?

 

Just seems a bit unreasonable and slightly odd. Why would they want to re-let the mooring rather than just allowing the existing occupier to carry on paying the ££ ?

 

I guess it may be a way of closing some sort of scam loophole and that the spouse of the dead mooring holder could always bid for the mooring again anyway.

 

 

I have heard of sob stories where people have bought boats thinking the mooring was transferable when it wasn't then they called BW who allowed them to remain (not sure if CRT have allowed it).

 

So if it says not transferable under any circumstances it closes the door to that particular scam

[S and K]

I know there is no security of tenure with boats - a bit like life -one might get run over by a coach anyway.

Council houses are a completely different matter as they are not subject to normal market forces and should be allocated to those in need in theory I didn't realise they did it with park homes though. So if someone had a parent in a mobile home on a park home site the parent dies then the beneficiary of the will would have to sell the mobile home but not allowed to sell it to themselves ?

Just seems a bit unreasonable and slightly odd. Why would they want to re-let the mooring rather than just allowing the existing occupier to carry on paying the ££ ?

I guess it may be a way of closing some sort of scam loophole and that the spouse of the dead mooring holder could always bid for the mooring again anyway.

I have heard of sob stories where people have bought boats thinking the mooring was transferable when it wasn't then they called BW who allowed them to remain (not sure if CRT have allowed it).

So if it says not transferable under any circumstances it closes the door to that particular scam

I can answer part of your question.

 

Most mobile parks, that I know of, have a clause that states, should the chalet/mobile home 'go on the open market' the park owner gets first refusal to purchase it. They also have the right to decide who purchases the unit. A "Win, win" situation.

[Alan de Enfield]

I can answer part of your question.

 

Most mobile parks, that I know of, have a clause that states, should the chalet/mobile home 'go on the open market' the park owner gets first refusal to purchase it. They also have the right to decide who purchases the unit. A "Win, win" situation.

 

Being a 'Park owner' we have the same clause in our T&Cs - however, it is not actually a condition imposed by the Park owner, it is a clause that is mandatory from the Overseeing Association.

[David Mack]

 

Being a 'Park owner' we have the same clause in our T&Cs - however, it is not actually a condition imposed by the Park owner, it is a clause that is mandatory from the Overseeing Association.

Why?

 

And is it mandatory to be a member of the Overseeing Association?

[Alan de Enfield]

Why?

 

And is it mandatory to be a member of the Overseeing Association?

 

No - but the benefits of belonging are many fold.

They provide a full support for planning applications, legal support, pro-forma contracts etc etc.

All of the Parks I know of are members.

 

It is the sort of 'club' that boat owners could do with.

 

The British Holiday & Home Parks Association is the only UK organisation founded with the exclusive objective of representing and serving those who own or manage holiday, residential, tenting and touring parks.

 

The Association is committed to lobbying and representing BH&HPA members' interests to government and policymakers at all levels. The Association's strategy is directed by park owners and managers to provide services tailored to the needs of the industry.

 

BH&HPA advises members on all aspects of park management, through advice services, publications, seminars, an authoritative Journal, website and an annual conference and exhibition.

 

Just one of the campaigns currently running is for the reduction in VAT charged - they are very active lobbying Government and have joined forces with other bodies in the leisure industry

 

The Cut Tourism VAT campaign is seeking a reduction in VAT from 20% to 5% for visitor accommodation and attractions

 

VAT is a European tax and the rules allow individual countries to apply lower rate VAT to some products and services. One of these states that countries can apply reduced rate VAT to ‘accommodation provided by hotels and similar establishments including the provision of holiday accommodation and the letting of camping sites or caravan parks’. 25 of the 28 EU member states currently take advantage of reduced tourism VAT rates. For example, the rate of VAT on visitor accommodation is 6% in Belgium, Portugal and the Netherlands, 7% in Germany, 9% in Ireland and 10% in France, Italy and Spain. The Cut Tourism VAT campaign argues that countries which apply a reduced rate of VAT have a competitive advantage over those which do not. As a result, the UK is at a disadvantage in a price-sensitive market.

 

[WJM]

WJM, on 23 May 2016 - 2:51 PM, said:

 

Nobody has yet mention this: I have a CaRT Leisure mooring in a CaRT marina. A small number of the moorings are specifically Residential - you can spot them because they have a more powerful electricity supply and they have a phone line. Now... about a year ago the electricity bollards were replaced with a new computerised system. You pay for your electricity online and... wait for it - CaRT can now see your consumption patterns at a glance. It could make it very difficult to live on a leisure mooring!

they knew anyway, I always had to provide my boat name and mooring site every time I bought electricity cards.

 

There is a big difference between the scrawled sheet of paper that the pub uses to record Rolec Card sales paid in cash (thats how we used to buy ours) and a full record in graph form detailing your minute by minute electricity consumption for an entire year or more.

 

I would suggest to anyone who might be in a grey area regarding residence at a leisure mooring that they should regularly do a couple of days on batteries. Then you can start worrying about proving your Council Tax status!

Edited May 24, 2016 by WJM

[Lady Muck]

oh they had a proper official book that it went in.They know whats going on, on their sites. Just the same as they know where all the cruisers are. If they want boats gone then I shall just have a different adventure, we've always said that. I love my mooring but I won't be able to afford it if/when they inevitably whack it up to yuppie/hipster price levels, so then I shall cruise.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lady Muck

[mayalld]

I'd say it's being forced on them, they don't want any of it (especially not the inevitable massive price hike). I've always thought that at some point, we'd get forced off in favour of a load of yuppies with money, (hence me not getting into a situation thats gonna be a problem for me), but TBH, no yuppie with money is gonna want to keep a holiday boat in a place like this They are either in town or way out in Essex, where it's pretty, not here. No leisure mooring in outer London is ever gonna get sold at auction for £12k if you can't live on it (or rent it as a b&b, either). They'd have to go back down to the old prices of around a grand a year to be of any interest to anyone. I reckon. So as I say, I watch with intrigue. I don't think the inner city LA's care.

 

 

You need to think outside the box here!

 

If they clamp down on residential use of leisure moorings, and the price falls to £1k you can have TWO leisure moorings, and flit between them every so often, and still be quids in.

[Lady Muck]

We seriously discussed getting one on the Oxford canal as well as this one.

But, our plan B would be to cruise the system but choose a different marina every winter. That's always been the plan.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lady Muck

[Paul C]

What if 2 boaters got 2 leisure moorings (one each) and arranged a swap every couple of weeks/months/whatever?

[Lady Muck]

What if 2 boaters got 2 leisure moorings (one each) and arranged a swap every couple of weeks/months/whatever?

You've got to agree any berth sitting with CRT in advance, they have new rules to do with that, too. We were off our mooring last summer, we had difficulty offering our mooring to friends who we knew could use one as CRT now won't let anyone who is on the naughty step borrow a mooring. It's a double punishment if you ask me, you get into trouble because you're not moving far enough (because you really need a mooring in that area but there's no availability). Then when your friend says, 'borrow mine and stop stressing,' you can't, they won't let you.

I've two friends who really want to let one round here, but they've got a very long wait, I reckon.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lady Muck

[MtB]

What if 2 boaters got 2 leisure moorings (one each) and arranged a swap every couple of weeks/months/whatever?

 

 

I'm losing track of the reasons for this. Would it be to avoid the need for PP?

[Paul C]

Oh yeah I forgot you can't simply sub-let or lend your mooring while you're not on it.

[sueb]

Marinas sub let whilst you are away but still charge you the full amount for your mooring.

[Lady Muck]

I wonder if this is CRTs' plan for other moorings? Wouldn't surprise me! Would be a right pain though, because I'm freelance, I please myself when we head off and come back, how on earth do I know where I'm going to be next week? I don't.

[MtB]

Its all getting quite difficult isn't it. I like to have a home mooring so when I'm out, I'm not required to keep on the move.

 

Now if I have a CRT home mooring (which I don't, but that's just by chance), I'm not allowed to leave it for 28 days without telling them. Is this so they can rent it to someone else? Or some other reason?

 

The thing is, when I leave my home mooring I have no specific plan so I could be back on it is a day or two, or it might be six months. I feel if I'm renting a mooring, when my boat is moored on it and when it isn't should be entirely my own affair.

 

When you rent a house the landlord has no right to demand to know when you stay in it and when you go away.

 

 

 

(Edit the format for better clarity.)

Edited May 24, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Lady Muck]

Bimbling not allowed anymore! Banned!