Tiller or wheel?

[fergyguy]

Whilst I appreciate many of you enjoy your nb with its tiller steering this post is aimed at wb owners...do you prefer your wb to have a tiller or hydraulic steering via a wheel? Is one better than the other? If so why?

[Tam & Di]

I've had plenty of craft with wheel steering and we even had a 10'6" wide passengerboat on the lower Grand Union steered that way. I have to say though that for a wide boat on UK canals a tiller gives much quicker response and is generally preferable.

 

 

Tam

[Paul C]

Tiller is much quicker and much easier to locate "centre" in a hurry, the only argument for going to wheel on a boat would be: 1) steering position not at the back 2) steering too heavy for a tiller

[pete.i]

Yep having gone from a tiller (narrowboat) to a wheel (cruiser) I prefer a tiller every time.

[bag 'o' bones]

A tiller arm tends to transmit rudder shocks more directly to the steerer where as a wheel is more 'disconnected' so to speak. Dunno if that makes much difference?

[cuthound]

A tiller arm tends to transmit rudder shocks more directly to the steerer where as a wheel is more 'disconnected' so to speak. Dunno if that makes much difference?

True, I can always tell when the bottom is getting close because the feel of the tiller changes .

[Tam & Di]

A tiller arm tends to transmit rudder shocks more directly to the steerer where as a wheel is more 'disconnected' so to speak.

 

A tiller is directly connected to the rudder whereas a wheel has various 'bits' in between, especially if it is hydraulically powered, which means there are more things to go wrong.

 

To emphasise the point, on continental waterways a large vessel is supposed to carry an emergency tiller that can drop onto the top of the rudder stock. Tiller = good, Wheel = good until it is not

 

Tam

Edited May 8, 2016 by Tam & Di

[b0atman]

I saw a Dutch barge on the Soar and the amount of turns of the wheel to manoeuvre was ridiculous bigger wheel better ratio .

[fergyguy]

It's looking like the tiller is the way to go?...I asked the question simply because some of the new wbs we have looked at had a fantastic looking stern area complete with wheel and control panel but the interior of the boat was not to our liking and the ones which had the better interiors had a tiller so the stern looked a little bit more simple and plain (not that's a bad thing) I also felt that hydraulic steering would with time bring it's own expensive problems where as I guess not so much to go wrong with a tiller? Unless I break my arm lol...thanks for our opinions and views it's all part of my information gathering and whilst a good few of you may not like wide beams in your comments and advise your going to help us buy a good one which will have been well though out and that will suit our needs despite its waterways limitations.

[Phil Ambrose]

I switched from a WB with a wheel to a NB with tiller in my case tiller wins hands down.

Phil

[fergyguy]

Hi Phil it does seem to be what everyone is saying I suspect it helps when you can feel the boats reactions through the tiller.

[FadeToScarlet]

The trip boat I steer (80' by 14', about 45 tonnes) has hydraulic wheel steering, but you can feel what's going on with the riverbed and where you are in the channel from how easy it is to turn, although you tend to notice the back pulling in first if you're out of the channel.

[bargemast]

 

A tiller is directly connected to the rudder whereas a wheel has various 'bits' in between, especially if it is hydraulically powered, which means there are more things to go wrong.

 

To emphasise the point, on continental waterways a large vessel is supposed to carry an emergency tiller that can drop onto the top of the rudder stock. Tiller = good, Wheel = good until it is not

 

Tam

 

This was the case in the old days, nowadays they have to have an independent emergency steering system, which rarely consists of an emergency tiller.

 

On my 38m barges I had mechanical steering and had emergency tillers, but that's a while ago now.

 

If the steering is hydraulic (like on most of the bigger barges) driven by an hydraulic pump of the main engine, then the secondary (emergency) system would normally have another hydraulic pump driven by a 24 Volt motor.

 

Instead of hydraulics, electric steering systems are quite common too, and will have to have two completely independent systems too.

 

On these barges you'll only very rarely still find a Wheel, is mainly just some joy-sticks.

 

 

 

Peter.

Edited May 8, 2016 by bargemast

[Robbo]

My barge has a wheel, but it's a luxmotor shape so impractical for a tiller. It's hydraulic and I have no issues steering, it is however not as easy to get use to as a tiller but does have same benefits such as the rudder stays where you left it which is use ful when manuvering.

[bargemast]

This is the small tankerbarge named "BRAVE" that I had a few years ago with a view of the Inside of her wheelless-wheelhouse, and with 2 independent hydraulic systems, 1 operated by the biggish lever, and the 2nd by the short stick.

 

 

 

Peter.

[saltysplash]

If you do choose Wheel Steering then make sure there is a 'Tell Tail' to indicate the position of the rubber

[ditchcrawler]

Maybe have a read here http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48196

[NickF]

I got used to wheel steering on the Peter le Marchant WB Symphony. You could fit a tiller but I always used the wheel because it made it much easier if there were several people on the stern deck. Everyone could move around more easily and the steerer is stood at the front (of the rear deck) so no one can stand infront of you and block your view. Also no risk of anyone standing within the arc of the tiller. Getting a feel for when the rudder was central took a while but once you have got it it really is not a problem.

 

http://ieuan.me/cycling/ive-just-seen-one-of-the-peter-le-marchant-boats/

[PD1964]

It's not just a matter of tiller/wheel but also where you site your throttle and bow thruster controls, much easier with a wheel as all close at hand, a bit more difficult with a tiller especially with some full turns these can make the controls just out of reach which is more of a problem on widebeams then narrows. You also mentioned Euro-Cruisers, a tiller would also restrict rear seating.

Edited May 9, 2016 by PD1964

[Tam & Di]

 

Instead of hydraulics, electric steering systems are quite common too, and will have to have two completely independent systems too.

 

On these barges you'll only very rarely still find a Wheel, is mainly just some joy-sticks.

 

 

I fitted Friesland with electric steering and had a hand-held remote for it too. It would have been easy enough to adapt it for a telecommand so I could steer from anywhere - even on the bank if I felt like it

 

We went up the Main with on a friend's loaded 1300t 80m (Janny - you might know it). He was a keen cyclist and sat on an exercise bike steering remotely which was amusing.

 

Tam

[Robbo]

If you do choose Wheel Steering then make sure there is a 'Tell Tail' to indicate the position of the rubber

 

You don't really need it. If you have one you tend to keep looking at it when moving instead of getting a feel where the boat is and what it's doing. It's handy when just setting off to know where it's pointing, but if you know how many turns lock to lock you have (mines around 4) that helps.

[bargemast]

 

I fitted Friesland with electric steering and had a hand-held remote for it too. It would have been easy enough to adapt it for a telecommand so I could steer from anywhere - even on the bank if I felt like it

 

We went up the Main with on a friend's loaded 1300t 80m (Janny - you might know it). He was a keen cyclist and sat on an exercise bike steering remotely which was amusing.

 

Tam

 

No Tam, I don't know that "Janny", I used to know a klipper and a 38m named like that, and also a pusher-convoy of 2 x 67m x 8.20. (134 x 8.20)

 

Many of the 80m barges (if they are 8.20m wide) were originally 67 x 8.20 later lenghtened to 80m, but with 1300t the "Janny" of your friends may be wider and built as an 80m barge from the start.

 

Peter.

[DHutch]

My barge has a wheel, but it's a luxmotor shape so impractical for a tiller. It's hydraulic and I have no issues steering, it is however not as easy to get use to as a tiller but does have same benefits such as the rudder stays where you left it which is use ful when manuvering.

 

EmilyAnne is also somewhat dutch/luxmotor in style, and has a wheel.

 

Rather than hydraulic steering we have a mechanical system which uses a chain over a sprocket behind the wheel, of which comes a pair of cables which goes via a set of pulleys to a quadrant on the rudder post.

Originally the cables where fairly thin wire rope as used on circa 10hp outboard steering systems on dorys and the like, but these where a little under-spec and have now been replaced with dyneema rope, as you can use a larger diameter and breaking strain cord for the given bend radius. This appears to give good service.

 

My experience with various hydraulic systems is the often a lot of the 'feel' is lost and many do not self-centre. I expect you can do better than most, but while there is some play in the rope-based system we have, the feel and self-centring is good. They are however very much simpler to route than a cable/chain/rod system and should be robust and a fit-and-forget solution.

 

Our wheel is about 2ft diameter and around 8 turns lock to lock, which gives reasonable performance and about the right level of force than anyone can steer with ease, without needing a stupidly high number of turns.

 

Its not quite as intuitive to learn, but having grown up with it, I get get out boat to perform as well as the equivalent tiller based without issue, and suits the hull shape and does allow you to sit down for much of the trip.

 

If you are thinking seriously about having a wheel, and would like an afternoon trialling one, you are welcome to get in touch via PM and I will try an arrange something which works for both of us.

 

When going straight at normal speeds I go for fairly small movements, bsm-shuffle style. For tighter manoeuvring and or at very slow speeds, I switch to an 'impulse' type mode, when I will put on say 2-4 turns lock, hold it for a period, and then take the turns off again, with a slightly counter-steer if required. Just like you would with a tiller. Combined with modulating the engine speed and our mildly profiled schilling-style rudder, I can get really pretty good performance out of the boat, despite it being 22ton and the rudders length being a compromise.

If you do choose Wheel Steering then make sure there is a 'Tell Tail' to indicate the position of the rubber

 

We can see the rudder post from the wheel by looking over your shoulder, and I do use it occasionally including when reversing and when teaching new people to steer, however there is enough self-centring on our wheel that combined with my experience of steering the boat I do as said not really use it much at all, certainly not when going forwards. We also have the option of a tell-tail where the rope passed the back of the wheelhouse.

...on continental waterways a large vessel is supposed to carry an emergency tiller that can drop onto the top of the rudder stock.

 

We have a back-up swan neck and tiller, which can be placed on the rudder stock. I have never had to use this in an emergency (ie, on a river, up streem of the weir) but have used it a few times ten years ago when the original cables where failing.

Daniel

[fergyguy]

Hi Daniel thanks for the offer I will keep that in mind...I think I may get a broker to arrange a trial of both types....I have had issues with newand used at Mercia so they owe me a favour....I will let you know how that turn out.

[DHutch]

No worries at all. I expect if you spend an hour on each, the tiller will come easier two you if you do no have much boat/wheel experience, although that said I have also had people who have never used a wheel on a boat take to it from the off and have no issues.

 

I am in north staffs, as is the boat, on it way towards Coventry for a rally on a months time. So not far.

 

Daniel