The Vine Prog Today, Friday

[TheBiscuits]

Ah, thank you. I thought that there were separate, more expensive, commercial licences, obviously I was mistaken.

There are. Clearly and plainly listed on the CRT Business Boating pages.

 

You were not mistaken on this occasion.

[BMC problems]

That would be a direct contravention of the 1995 Act then.

[alan_fincher]

You raise an interesting point. Do coal boats and other commercial craft, which unlike CCers I believe DO have a different licence, have to abide by the "14 day, then on your way" rule?

 

The straight answer is there isn't a different license, it's the same one.

 

Your "straight answer" is wrong - trading coal boats need a trading licence not a pleasure boat licence.

Ah, thank you. I thought that there were separate, more expensive, commercial licences, obviously I was mistaken.

 

You were not.

[adam1uk]

Yes, it's an utterly ludicrous situation.

 

CART bloke: "We require all CCers to move an acceptable distance".

Boater: "O.K., and what is that distance?"

CART bloke: "Oh ho ho ho, we can't tell you that because we don't know. But we'll let you know what isn't, later".

 

 

Imagine if it had been, for example, a government spokesman on Kylevine's programme, and he was being asked about unemployment.

Gov. Bod: "We have too many unemployed people in Britain".

KV: "Oh yes? How many are there?"

Gov. Bod: "Dunno. Even if I did know, I wouldn't tell you".

 

This would not be likely to win the respect of listeners or to show the spokesman in a good light. Rather, it would suggest that he hadn't a clue.

 

The law which prevents the government from revealing the unemployment numbers must have passed me by. You must think there is one, or the two examples you've given would be utterly different.

[Athy]

nonsense.

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

The law which prevents the government from revealing the unemployment numbers must have passed me by.

I don't believe there is any such law. Have you evidence that there is?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

The straight answer is there isn't a different license, it's the same one.

 

 

That would be a direct contravention of the 1995 Act then.

 

 

You do seem to be struggling to actually understand other peoples posts, and then post anything remotely representing the facts.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Murflynn]

 

I don't believe there is any such law.

which confirms that you were talking nonsense.

the rationale in #143 is perfectly clear to any reasonable and intelligent person.

[Athy]

which confirms that you were talking nonsense.

.

Certainly not. It was the CART minion on the radio who was talking nonsense, if you remember that far back in the thread. It does seem quite a long time ago now.

 

the rationale in #143 is perfectly clear to any reasonable and intelligent person.

Well, as the great majority of the post is a quotation of my words, of course it's clear to any reasonable and intelligent person, I totally agree. Not so sure that Adam's comment is clear, though.

[Graham Davis]

Certainly not. It was the CART minion on the radio who was talking nonsense, if you remember that far back in the thread. It does seem quite a long time ago now.

 

Your choice of language proves that you will not agree with what several of us have said, and confirms your attitude towards CaRT.

The EMPLOYEE from CaRT answered accurately and correctly, paraphrasing exactly what the Act says. He could do no more than that.

[MtB]

Good point. Surely only git would refer to a hard working employee as a 'minion'....

(except that Mr Athy doesn't live aboard, otherwise this could have been wonderfully circular!)

[KenK]

Next time a C&RT employee is asked the question possibly they could use the following as a reply.

 

The 1995 act requires that either a home mooring is available or that the boat be used “Bona Fide for Navigation”. The question then arises what does "Bona Fide" mean.

A judge in one of the section 8 cases used the example of the Mersey Ferry. The ferry transports passengers from one side of the River Mersey to the other and back again. It only travels a relatively short distance each time. The purpose of the ferry is to move passengers, in order to do so it must navigate the river, therefore navigation is a necessary requirement for the ferry to perform its primary function and hence is “bona fide”.

 

Now consider the case of the lady boater on the BBC 2 radio show. She, her husband and children live on a boat, it is used as far as we know as their main residence. Her husband needs to commute to his place of work and the children need to be taken to school, I do not recall if the lady herself worked. None of this activity requires movement of the boat, in fact movement of the boat is actually prejudicial to the activity. The purpose of the boat is accommodation therefore navigation is not a necessary requirement for the boat to perform its primary function. Their only reason for moving the boat is to try to comply with the terms of the 1995 act and hence is NOT “bona fide”.

 

 

I’m not a lawyer but I would suggest that the above is a straightforward example of what “bona fide” means in practice and resolves the, how far do I need to move question, which C&RT cannot answer.

 

Ken

[MtB]

Very nicely explained..!

 

Mr Symonds' error in his answer was failing to include a comment that the law does not state a distance, so nor could he.

 

A simpler thing to remember each time that booby trap is laid out for him in future.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Alan de Enfield]

Next time a C&RT employee is asked the question possibly they could use the following as a reply.

 

 

 

Excellent - it should be included as a 'sticky' and every time the question is asked the questioner should be referred to it.

 

Maybe it should be pasted on the KandA website as well.

[Athy]

Good point. Surely only git would refer to a hard working employee as a 'minion'....

(except that Mr Athy doesn't live aboard, otherwise this could have been wonderfully circular!)

Oi! I may have a mild case of brewer's goitre, and in some ways I may be wonderful, but circular I ain't.

 

 

Yet.

[Athy]

 

Your choice of language proves that you will not agree with what several of us have said, and confirms your attitude towards CaRT.

The EMPLOYEE from CaRT answered accurately and correctly, paraphrasing exactly what the Act says. He could do no more than that.

Perhaps you would care to write other posters' scripts for them, or at least give them some signals as to how to choose their language? Are your fees reasonable?

 

What, in your opinion, is my attitude towards CART? I would describe it as neutral most of the time.

 

Oh, and since when is a complete information-free fudge of an answer "accurate"? He was made to look a fool in front of millions of listeners, I felt rather sorry for him as his overlords had obviously set him up as a "fall guy".

 

Several people not agreeing is known as "discussion", which is the life blood of this web site, so I hope that at least in that respect you are correct, Graham.

[RLWP]

as his overlords had obviously set him up as a "fall guy".

 

 

This is the bit I'm trying to get you to change your mind on.

 

Matthew Symonds is the "strategy and engagement manager (boating)" and answers to Richard Parry. He's not some dogsbody enforcement officer on the bank, they answer to him

 

Richard

[Athy]

 

This is the bit I'm trying to get you to change your mind on.

 

Matthew Symonds is the "strategy and engagement manager (boating)" and answers to Richard Parry. He's not some dogsbody enforcement officer on the bank, they answer to him

 

Richard

Thank you for that information. I did assume that he was office-based rather than on the bank. Perhaps he's just not cut out for broadcasting - he came over as tentative, bland and lacking any charisma or aura of authority during the Radio 2 broadcast. Do they not have a press officer who is trained in dealing competently with the media?

 

So, Richard Parry is his overlord. Perhaps he could have supplied the poor fish with sufficient information to enable him to give a straight answer to a straight question, which might have made his on-air performance less underwhelming.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Athy

[RLWP]

Do they not have a press officer who is trained in dealing competently with the media?

 

No, they do what any proper company should do and put the person responsible in front of the media. I hear your experience of him (tentative, bland and lacking any charisma or aura of authority) and that isn't how I heard it. Maybe knowing who he was and how careful he would have to be in what he said coloured my view of the exchange

 

Richard

[Athy]

 

No, they do what any proper company should do and put the person responsible in front of the media. I hear your experience of him (tentative, bland and lacking any charisma or aura of authority) and that isn't how I heard it. Maybe knowing who he was and how careful he would have to be in what he said coloured my view of the exchange

 

Richard

Not sure about your first sentence (and anyway, CART is not a company) but I totally concur with your last sentence. However, probably les than 1% of listeners would have known who he was and under what constraints he had been placed. So, the connoisseur such as your goodself might appreciate his broadcast, but the groundlings who made up most of the listeners would not.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Athy

[RLWP]

Not sure about your first sentence

 

No? The best communication comes from the person delivering a service. Of course, if you'd rather have a professional talking head reading a script

 

Richard

[Athy]

 

No? The best communication comes from the person delivering a service.

Sorry, can't agree. Those who fully understand their subject do not always have the gift of communication. Did you never have a teacher at school who knew his subject inside out but couldn't teach it for toffee?

[RLWP]

Sorry, can't agree. Those who fully understand their subject do not always have the gift of communication. Did you never have a teacher at school who knew his subject inside out but couldn't teach it for toffee?

 

Ahh well, we will have to agree to differ. I thought Matthew trod very carefully through the interview, you heard that as lacking in charisma.

 

Richard

[Athy]

 

Ahh well, we will have to agree to differ. I thought Matthew trod very carefully through the interview, you heard that as lacking in charisma.

 

Richard

One man's trod carefully is another man's blundered aimlessly, yes.

[Dave_P]

Next time a C&RT employee is asked the question possibly they could use the following as a reply.

 

The 1995 act requires that either a home mooring is available or that the boat be used “Bona Fide for Navigation”. The question then arises what does "Bona Fide" mean.

A judge in one of the section 8 cases used the example of the Mersey Ferry. The ferry transports passengers from one side of the River Mersey to the other and back again. It only travels a relatively short distance each time. The purpose of the ferry is to move passengers, in order to do so it must navigate the river, therefore navigation is a necessary requirement for the ferry to perform its primary function and hence is “bona fide”.

 

Now consider the case of the lady boater on the BBC 2 radio show. She, her husband and children live on a boat, it is used as far as we know as their main residence. Her husband needs to commute to his place of work and the children need to be taken to school, I do not recall if the lady herself worked. None of this activity requires movement of the boat, in fact movement of the boat is actually prejudicial to the activity. The purpose of the boat is accommodation therefore navigation is not a necessary requirement for the boat to perform its primary function. Their only reason for moving the boat is to try to comply with the terms of the 1995 act and hence is NOT “bona fide”.

 

 

I’m not a lawyer but I would suggest that the above is a straightforward example of what “bona fide” means in practice and resolves the, how far do I need to move question, which C&RT cannot answer.

 

Ken

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier, but you put it better. CRT could easily start enforcing against people who have a cruising range of 50 miles if the intention is to remain within commuting distance to work. The fact that CRT aren't doing this should be a cause of great relief to many. The possibility exists that it could happen in the future.

 

My reading of the 1995 act is that the clause which allows boaters to be free of a home mooring was intended to allow people with no requirement to remain in any one area to be allowed to avoid paying for a mooring which they never use. The act was badly worded and inadvertantly allowed the current situation, which many (including myself) have benefitted from. BW's CCing guidance was an attempt to enforce the 'spirit' of the act but their approach didn't work. CRTs have tried a different approach...

[Athy]

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier, but you put it better. CRT could easily start enforcing against people who have a cruising range of 50 miles if the intention is to remain within commuting distance to work.

Aye, you have a point (and I think that Mr. Boiler expressed a similar view back in the murky depths of the thread).

 

BUT...

 

We surely do not want a situation in which CART, or anyone else, tells us why we go boating and where we do so. Ask a dozen boaters why they do it and you'll get a dozen answers, maybe 13 if one of them's a bit indecisive. That is a large part of the appeal: the waterways mean different things to different people. One man's cosy, companionable marina mooring might be another's horrible crowded water parking space. The remote mooring on the South Oxford top pound which is a natural delight for one person might be a lonely place devoid of basic comforts and facilities to someone else. And so on...

 

Edited to add: the best why-I-do-it related comment I've heard came from the fellow who was steering his ex-working boat past us below Cropredy Lock at about 11 p.m. one night last year: "I like boating at night, it's peaceful".

Edited May 4, 2016 by Athy