Ive broken my Engine, ideas needed

[bargemast]

I got shot to pieces this afternoon. What you say is not always true! And I was already on the lowest difficulty level! Bum.

There are certain computer programms that you can use to play chest, and they can be stronger than yourself, so I suppose that it may be the same with your Playstation, a gadget that I don't have, and don't know.

 

A little cousin is addicted to his, and prefers to play with his, instead of doing his homework.

 

Peter.

[dmr]

Update

Collected Injection pump today.

Tony was correct, it is very easy to get inside the first bit of the Stanadyne to get at the little filters, (have just had a lesson from the bloke who did the work) but I would still not fancy doing a total strip and rebuild myself. Current thinking is that the "stuff" is not diesel bug but it did go into the injection pump, it certainly did not "materialise/grow" inside it. So it went through two fine paper filters then struggled to get through the course filter in the injection pump. I just don't understand. Will still probably get a bug testing kit tomorrow.

Have another problem now.

Pump has had complete overhaul including acid bath, looks better than new, but this has lost the timing marks as these had not penetrated the Beta paint (that has now gone). Now almost no way to "properly" set the timing. Reckon I can estimate it within about 5 or 6 degrees but if any forum diesel experts have hints and tips on how to optimise timing I would be very interested.

 

...................Dave

[GreyLady]

I am no guru and I hope you get your engine sorted out, I am.new to boating but not mechanics

 

 

Stage 1 check for Air Locks.

Stage 2 mock bypass fuellines/returns

 

Stage 2 fuel can, if the engine runs then it's the problem is tank/lines.

 

Vice versa

...

Edited April 2, 2016 by GreyLady

[Batavia]

Spill timing.

 

Chris G

[RLWP]

Spill timing.

 

Chris G

Can you spill time a distribution pump?

 

Richard

[Arthur Brown]

To avoid a subsequent "big bill", I'd want to be very sure what is in the fuel tank, right to the bottom corners.

[Tony Dunkley]

Spill timing.

 

Chris G

 

You can't spill time a DPA type pump, because they don't have spill ports to be covered/uncovered by the plungers.

[dmr]

I don't think John Deere publish any timing figures. Everything is encapsulated within a little box of electronics that a John Deere technician should have. This has sensors for crank angle, TDC and injection.

There are a number of issues here,

First it would cost more big money.

Second I think you have to run through a mix of speeds and loads for the machine to give its answer and these conditions are most likely not easily achievable on the JD3.

Finally because the JD3 works over only part of the engines available speed range the John Deere timing is probably not quite optimum anyway.

 

...............Dave

[RLWP]

You can't spill time a DPA type pump, because they don't have spill ports to be covered/uncovered by the plungers.

I'm very surprised there is no static mark on a pump of this type.

 

Richard

[Tony Dunkley]

Update

Collected Injection pump today.

Tony was correct, it is very easy to get inside the first bit of the Stanadyne to get at the little filters, (have just had a lesson from the bloke who did the work) but I would still not fancy doing a total strip and rebuild myself. Current thinking is that the "stuff" is not diesel bug but it did go into the injection pump, it certainly did not "materialise/grow" inside it. So it went through two fine paper filters then struggled to get through the course filter in the injection pump. I just don't understand. Will still probably get a bug testing kit tomorrow.

Have another problem now.

Pump has had complete overhaul including acid bath, looks better than new, but this has lost the timing marks as these had not penetrated the Beta paint (that has now gone). Now almost no way to "properly" set the timing. Reckon I can estimate it within about 5 or 6 degrees but if any forum diesel experts have hints and tips on how to optimise timing I would be very interested.

 

...................Dave

 

If you look back at some of my earlier posts in this topic, you'll find that ''current thinking'' prior to my telling you about the gauze filter in the 'fuel in' connections in the region of the transfer pump was that I told you the brown slimy stuff wasn't diesel bug.

 

Now, after needlessly forking out a load of dosh to your 'trusted' experts for an unnecessary pump overhaul you are saying that there's no way to set the injection timing and that you think you can estimate it within a few degrees.

 

The good news is that, of course, there is a correct procedure for re-setting the timing, and it's easy and quick if you know how.

The bad news is that it's quite complicated and lengthy to explain, and as you've either disputed or ignored everything that I've explained to you so far about what was a quickly and easily solved air/fuel purging problem caused by a gummed up regulating valve, I'm not inclined to spend any more time on lengthy explanations of how to set-up your pump timing just to have it ignored or disputed in the same manner that everything else was.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[MtB]

Dave, I believe you have a spare pump. Can you copy'N'paste the timing marks across from that?

[RLWP]

I don't know which pump you have, there are timing marks shown in this: http://oregonfuelinjection.com/pdf/stanadyne-db2-db4-pump-removal-and-installation.pdf

 

Also in here: http://www.stanadyne.com/dealerportal/ssi/english/Product%20Manual/99820.pdf

 

Richard

Edited April 2, 2016 by RLWP

[dmr]

Dave, I believe you have a spare pump. Can you copy'N'paste the timing marks across from that?

 

Nice idea but no.

The spare pump came off the previous engine.

The pump and engine have no manufacturers timing marks. The first time the pump has to come off the person doing this scribes lines on the engine and pump, so they will always be in slightly arbitrary places. Its normal to scribe lines but with hindsight a nice dot with a centre punch would maybe have be better.

 

I have had this pump off before so they are my marks. Last time S&S just fixed it, I had no idea it was going to go into an acid bath this time.

 

I can sort of remember where the pump sat on its adjusting slots so I can hopefully get it within a few degrees.

Its likely that the timing is optimised for emissions as much as performance anyway.

Most of my hands-on background is with petrols rather than diesels so I would like to learn a bit more about the trade offs of advanced and retarded injection.

 

.................Dave

Edited April 2, 2016 by dmr

[WotEver]

... I would like to learn a bit more about the trade offs of advanced and retarded injection.

Nicked from a Google search:

 

advanced:

noise (diesel clatter)

white smoke (or grey) especially when cold

missing under certain load conditions

slow down shudder

 

retarded:

smooth and quiet (too quiet)

black smoke

hard to start

missing under certain load conditions

slow down shudder

 

Tony

[dmr]

Silly me, laying awake at night worryin' about nuffin'.

 

Beta spray the engines green so there is a perfect outline in bare steel of where the pump flange goes

 

Would still like to learn about injection timing though.

 

...................Dave

[MtB]

Silly me, laying awake at night worryin' about nuffin'.

 

Beta spray the engines green so there is a perfect outline in bare steel of where the pump flange goes

 

 

Lol, I expect that was what Tony decided not to tell you!

 

 

Would still like to learn about injection timing though.

 

 

Me too.

 

First question, is what does 'retarded' mean, exactly? Is is injection after TDC? Or simply injection later than at the optimum angle?

[dmr]

 

 

Lol, I expect that was what Tony decided not to tell you!

 

 

 

 

Me too.

 

First question, is what does 'retarded' mean, exactly? Is is injection after TDC? Or simply injection later than at the optimum angle?

 

Retarded is just the opposite of advanced.

To retard the timing means to make it later in the cycle.

Retarded would also mean later than optimum in most cases.

Just like in petrols these things never happen exactly at TDC because there are all sorts of delays and typically you need combustion quite well established by TDC so that most of it happens just after TDC, hence things must start a little before TDC. Its not as bad as it sounds because near to TDC there is very little "torque arm" so not a big torque to try to push the engine backwards.

mind, my old VW bus would sometimes crank very very slowly and when it did do a good combustion it would stop the engine dead.

 

As you go faster the delay can reduce a little bit (in terms of milliseconds), but still represents an increasing crank angle so it is generally required to advance the timing as speed increases.

 

............Dave

[MtB]

 

Retarded is just the opposite of advanced.

To retard the timing means to make it later in the cycle.

Retarded would also mean later than optimum in most cases.

Just like in petrols these things never happen exactly at TDC because there are all sorts of delays and typically you need combustion quite well established by TDC so that most of it happens just after TDC, hence things must start a little before TDC. Its not as bad as it sounds because near to TDC there is very little "torque arm" so not a big torque to try to push the engine backwards.

mind, my old VW bus would sometimes crank very very slowly and when it did do a good combustion it would stop the engine dead.

 

As you go faster the delay can reduce a little bit (in terms of milliseconds), but still represents an increasing crank angle so it is generally required to advance the timing as speed increases.

 

............Dave

 

 

Thanks! Yes I understood all that in relation to petrol engines, but with diesel so much is different I was wanting to establish the terminology where diesels are concerned. It's the sort of misunderstanding when switching disciplines that can really mess up one's progress!

[dmr]

 

 

Thanks! Yes I understood all that in relation to petrol engines, but with diesel so much is different I was wanting to establish the terminology where diesels are concerned. It's the sort of misunderstanding when switching disciplines that can really mess up one's progress!

 

I'm much the same, trying to convert my petrol knowledge to diesels. As its compression ignition its intuitive to assume that combustion is instantaneous as soon as the fuel goes in, but in reality there are still time delays. I think that these new fangled common rail systems put in a dribble of fuel quite early on to get things started so that when they put in the main bit it goes off much quicker.

 

To avoid any misunderstanding when converting to diesels just remember never to refer to the injector as a spark plug.

 

................Dave

[MtB]

 

I'm much the same, trying to convert my petrol knowledge to diesels. As its compression ignition its intuitive to assume that combustion is instantaneous as soon as the fuel goes in, but in reality there are still time delays. I think that these new fangled common rail systems put in a dribble of fuel quite early on to get things started so that when they put in the main bit it goes off much quicker.

 

To avoid any misunderstanding when converting to diesels just remember never to refer to the injector as a spark plug.

 

................Dave

 

 

Yes and another thing to remember is to put diesel in the tank not petrol...

 

 

 

(This being another rookie mistake, as those vans around with "WONG FUEL?" written on the side we see attending cars in filling stations, with embarrassed looking blokes hanging around trying to pretend it isn't their car, illustrate...)

Edited April 2, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[dmr]

 

 

Yes and another thing to remember is to put diesel in the tank not petrol...

 

 

 

(This being another rookie mistake, as those vans around with "WONG FUEL?" written on the side we see attending cars in filling stations, with embarrassed looking blokes hanging around trying to pretend it isn't their car, illustrate...)

 

It always seems like bad marketing to have "mis fuelling unit" written on the side of the van, it might just as well say "idiot helper".

Its a bit like having the "rat catcher and bed bug exterminator" van outside your house. A few companies pride themselves on offering a discrete vermin service so maybe you could start a discrete misfuelling service in your spare time.

 

When we hired a boat many years ago (I told Gillie she could not buy a boat till she had been on one at least once) we chose Norbury wharf as their boats are not sign written as hire boats. Its a complete myth of course because all the local boaters instantly recognise them anyway.

 

Out of interest, how much work do you think you get due to having a sign written van?

I used to think it was pointless as people would rarely be ready to write down the phone number, but that has all changed with mobile phones having cameras.

 

...................Dave

[MtB]

 

Out of interest, how much work do you think you get due to having a sign written van?

I used to think it was pointless as people would rarely be ready to write down the phone number, but that has all changed with mobile phones having cameras.

 

...................Dave

 

Virtually none. The reverse happens in fact. One tends to get old farts tapping on the window when parked up in the Waitrose car park making phone calls, wanting to chat aimlessly about the foibles of their heating system for an hour then enquire how much to service it, then say they'll "think about it"...

 

The main reason for the signwriting is parking. Sometimes traffic wardens will cut a bit of slack to a van clearly there to do a job. But not always. Also, some apartment blocks with parking control will give day permits to tradesmen's vans provided they are signwritten with a phone number.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[nicknorman]

As its compression ignition its intuitive to assume that combustion is instantaneous as soon as the fuel goes in...

 

................Dave

No, it's important to bear in mind that compression ignition occurring in a petrol engine is pretty instantaneous (and bad for it!) due to the fact that the whole cylinder is full of near-stochiometric mixture of fuel vapour and air. However in a diesel you inject droplets of fuel and so the compression ignition is a much slower process with each droplet burning from the outside in. So it's definitely a burn as opposed to a detonation.

[bargemast]

No, it's important to bear in mind that compression ignition occurring in a petrol engine is pretty instantaneous (and bad for it!) due to the fact that the whole cylinder is full of near-stochiometric mixture of fuel vapour and air. However in a diesel you inject droplets of fuel and so the compression ignition is a much slower process with each droplet burning from the outside in. So it's definitely a burn as opposed to a detonation.

 

If you inject "droplets of fuel" your injectors are shot, they should inject a very fine spray more like a mist to spontaneously ignite.

 

Peter.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

If you inject "droplets of fuel" your injectors are shot, they should inject a very fine spray more like a mist to spontaneously ignite.

 

Peter.

 

Back in the 1950's and 60's the term 'injector' was rarely', if ever, found in the repair/maintenance manuals of most diesel engine makers, . . . preferring instead to describe them as 'atomizers'.