Ive broken my Engine, ideas needed

[smileypete]

If the goo dissolves into warm/hot veg oil then it's wax.

 

If it only slowly dissolves into strong alkali (dishwasher tablet or washing soda in 1/2 pint hot water) then it's probably polymerized oil.

 

If it needs some sort of acid to dissolve (vinegar? dishwasher cleaner possibly?) then it could be a soap like substance.

 

As said a trawl of teh web especially the biodiesel forums will turn up loads of info. Maybe an idea to keep a jar from each fill and do a test on it sometime?

 

Looks like this is one of the additives used by home biodiesel processors:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Allklear-400-Biodiesel-Antioxidant-Litres/dp/B00JDKAFHQ

 

There's also various basic tests like soap tests, cloud point tests that give some idea of fuel quality:

 

http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Soap_tests

Edited April 4, 2016 by smileypete

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Luckily my pump sustained no damage or wear, just contamination.

 

 

..............Dave

 

From much earlier in this topic, but disregarded by the OP in preference for much more dramatic/expensive causes and remedies :~

 

"Diesel fuel has a tendency to form gummy, almost varnish like deposits in fuel injection equipment over a longish period of time.

Your brown sludge is a mixture of this and rust particles that are small enough to pass through filters, and your bleeding/running problems were the result of enough of this muck accumulating in the pump inlet valve/gauze strainer/transfer pump/pressure regulating valve area.

Long before diesel bug became a widespread problem, this brown sludge was causing the same starting/bleeding problems you have had on small engines fitted with Distributor type fuel injection pumps."

and :~

 

''It always starts to accumulate around the 'in' side [transfer pump] of a DPA type injector pump and not in the lift pump, which is why CAV put a very fine gauze strainer in the 'fuel in' adapter on that type of pump. This muck doesn't actually harm anything, it just clags things up and stops them from working, and it forms a brown, snuff takers snot-like coating on the filter gauze, which on CAV pumps were a throw away and renew item from the service kit.''

______________________________________

 

I'm posting this for the benefit of anyone else who may experience similar problems with bleeding a DPA type injection pump following a filter change, and in the hope that they will resist the temptation to burden themselves with all the self-indulgent grief and pointless expenditure that has featured so prominently in this topic.

Gummy, sticky and brownish snot-like gunge has been accumulating in the transfer pump/pressure regulating valve parts of DPA [distributor] pumps, and causing these very same problems, since they were first introduced some, I would guess, 50 or so years ago.

The precise chemical composition of today's fuel system crud is undoubtedly somewhat different due to the changes in the composition of diesel fuel, but the effects of the muck are no different now from what they always have been, and neither is the cure.

The presence of what may look like alarming quantities of snot-like muck in the low pressure and return/leak-off parts of a diesel fuel injection system will never stop an engine from running because it won't affect the functioning of the high pressure components [ operating in the region of 2000psi ], but the presence of it and it's ability to gum up the small internal gauze filters and lightly spring loaded valves in the low pressure side will very effectively prevent the correct operation of the low pressure components which supply fuel to the high pressure side of the system. In extreme cases this may well induce rough running and/or misfiring, or poor starting, but is most likely to manifest itself after the fuel system is disturbed/opened up and air gets in, . . . such as when changing the primary and/or main filters.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[kris88]

Tony I sent you a message recently, did you get it ?

 

 

Regards kris

[Tony Dunkley]

Tony I sent you a message recently, did you get it ?

 

 

Regards kris

 

No kris, I didn't.

[kris88]

I'll send a message again, I lost my phone so don't have your phone number any more.

 

Regards kris

[dmr]

 

From much earlier in this topic, but disregarded by the OP in preference for much more dramatic/expensive causes and remedies :~

 

"Diesel fuel has a tendency to form gummy, almost varnish like deposits in fuel injection equipment over a longish period of time.

Your brown sludge is a mixture of this and rust particles that are small enough to pass through filters, and your bleeding/running problems were the result of enough of this muck accumulating in the pump inlet valve/gauze strainer/transfer pump/pressure regulating valve area.

Long before diesel bug became a widespread problem, this brown sludge was causing the same starting/bleeding problems you have had on small engines fitted with Distributor type fuel injection pumps."

and :~

 

''It always starts to accumulate around the 'in' side [transfer pump] of a DPA type injector pump and not in the lift pump, which is why CAV put a very fine gauze strainer in the 'fuel in' adapter on that type of pump. This muck doesn't actually harm anything, it just clags things up and stops them from working, and it forms a brown, snuff takers snot-like coating on the filter gauze, which on CAV pumps were a throw away and renew item from the service kit.''

______________________________________

 

I'm posting this for the benefit of anyone else who may experience similar problems with bleeding a DPA type injection pump following a filter change, and in the hope that they will resist the temptation to burden themselves with all the self-indulgent grief and pointless expenditure that has featured so prominently in this topic.

Gummy, sticky and brownish snot-like gunge has been accumulating in the transfer pump/pressure regulating valve parts of DPA [distributor] pumps, and causing these very same problems, since they were first introduced some, I would guess, 50 or so years ago.

The precise chemical composition of today's fuel system crud is undoubtedly somewhat different due to the changes in the composition of diesel fuel, but the effects of the muck are no different now from what they always have been, and neither is the cure.

The presence of what may look like alarming quantities of snot-like muck in the low pressure and return/leak-off parts of a diesel fuel injection system will never stop an engine from running because it won't affect the functioning of the high pressure components [ operating in the region of 2000psi ], but the presence of it and it's ability to gum up the small internal gauze filters and lightly spring loaded valves in the low pressure side will very effectively prevent the correct operation of the low pressure components which supply fuel to the high pressure side of the system. In extreme cases this may well induce rough running and/or misfiring, or poor starting, but is most likely to manifest itself after the fuel system is disturbed/opened up and air gets in, . . . such as when changing the primary and/or main filters.

 

Tony

 

I did not just ignore your post, I read it carefully, thought about and then disregarded it because it was obviously wrong.

Anyone who is interested can read back through this thread and draw their own conclusions.

 

For the benefit of anybody else experiencing similar problems my advice is to carefully work out what has gone wrong and if appropriate to get your pump fixed by a professional diesel technician.

As red Adair famously said, If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

 

And Tony, I am not going to enter into an argument with you, I have the evidence here in front of me so it would be unfair.

 

................Dave

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Tony

 

I did not just ignore your post, I read it carefully, thought about and then disregarded it because it was obviously wrong.

Anyone who is interested can read back through this thread and draw their own conclusions.

 

For the benefit of anybody else experiencing similar problems my advice is to carefully work out what has gone wrong and if appropriate to get your pump fixed by a professional diesel technician.

As red Adair famously said, If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.

 

And Tony, I am not going to enter into an argument with you, I have the evidence here in front of me so it would be unfair.

 

................Dave

 

I think the best response to this is to remind you of the first few lines of your OP, . . . quote :~

 

"Ive just broken my JD3. Next step is to get injection pump off and down to main agent but any other ideas would be very welcome before I do that.

Engine running fine.

Changed both fuel filters (done this many many times before)

Engine started on second go (unusual, always starts instantly) but running horrid."

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Paraphrase that into ~ 'I've just changed the filters in a fuel system that I don't understand and know nothing about how it works, and although my engine was perfectly alright before I messed about with it, I can't get it to run properly now.

Despite having no idea what the problem is, and asking for advice on how to fix it, I've already decided that the injection pump, which was working OK before I changed the filters, is now defective'. ~ and it immediately becomes rather more accurate and informative.

I think your suggestion that anyone experiencing similar problems should read through this entire topic/thread is an excellent idea, as it will be helpful in expanding on and substantiating what I summarized in post #202.

I am also in full agreement with the sentiments expressed in your Red Adair quote. The end result and cost of the joint efforts to solve the problem yourself, with the aid of a plumber, speaks volumes.

You have blown a pile of money, and time, on something that could be fixed in a few minutes, with the injection pump in situ, by any competent diesel fitter/engineer, or any reasonably capable and practical boat owner with the aid of the advice and guidance that you chose to ignore.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[smileypete]

Can see both sides but can understand exactly why the diesel place recommended what they did, and why dmr went along with it.

 

Once bunged some petrol with 2 stroke into my car and it nearly conked out on the motorway! . Can only think the oil had a solvent effect and loosened some gunk.

Edited April 5, 2016 by smileypete

[dmr]

Can see both sides but can understand exactly why the diesel place recommended what they did, and why dmr went along with it.

 

Once bunged some petrol with 2 stroke into my car and it nearly conked out on the motorway! . Can only think the oil had a solvent effect and loosened some gunk.

 

I had diagnosed a failed injection pump and mtb had agreed. The Stanadyne agent actually said "I will look inside your pump if you really want me to, but its almost certainly not the problem". I asked him too. When he did he found it was totally full of a substance that he had never seen before. I then requested a careful rebuild of the pump, after all my life might even depend upon it one day. At no point did the agent do any more than I asked them to. I have this stuff here in a bag and it is not the stuff that Tony (who has never seen it) says it is. I, as a professional engineer with much automotive experience, am happy about the decisions that I have made and the actions that I have taken. I can not understand why Tony wants to argue, is so rude, and wants to tell me that I don't "understand" how a very conventional filter-pump-filter system works. Tony has no idea of what expertise I do or do not have. This is getting very tedious.

 

Engine now running very nicely but still want to work out what has happened here to prevent a recurrence.

 

.................Dave

[Laurie Booth]

Well, I have read all 11 pages and have not understood any of it. Just glad that the engine is now running OK and that you can now do the BCN Challenge.

 

See you both soon.

 

[Tony Dunkley]

I had diagnosed a failed injection pump and mtb had agreed. The Stanadyne agent actually said "I will look inside your pump if you really want me to, but its almost certainly not the problem". I asked him too. When he did he found it was totally full of a substance that he had never seen before.

 

. . . . . . . I can not understand why Tony wants to argue, is so rude, and wants to tell me that I don't "understand" how a very conventional filter-pump-filter system works. Tony has no idea of what expertise I do or do not have.

 

 

.................Dave

 

After reading through the first few pages of this topic/thread, and recognizing the priming/bleeding problems you were having as being the same as those I've encountered and rectified on many occasions over the years with CAV [DPA type] distributor pumps, I explained [in post #87] both the cause and the remedy.

The 'arguing', all on your part, began from there on with a preference for your own unproven theories over what is a well known problem to which distributor type injection pumps have been prone since they were invented.

In view of the fact that the engine was, in your words, "running fine" prior to the filter change, the mysterious substance which you say the pump was ' full of ' was clearly having no detrimental effect on the functioning of the pump or the performance of the engine, and, again in your words, had caused "no damage or wear''.

The only portion of this muck, as I have explained at least twice already, that was causing any problem would have been the small quantity of it that was gumming up the lightly spring loaded pressure regulating valve in the transfer pump end of the injection pump and preventing it from functioning as it should.

 

As for your general understanding and expertise with regard to fuel injection systems, another quote from one of your posts illustrates just how inadequate and limited this is : ~ " I am not very brave when it comes to cracking injector lines, I have heard tales of nasty accidents. . . . . . . . . I am not brave enough to watch the fuel coming out, am I been silly? I did not wrap the union too well on one cylinder and it shot fuel all over the place." ~ hardly the words of someone comfortable and familiar with something they're working on, are they?

 

As I indicated in post #202, my intentions are now focused on trying to ensure that others who may experience similar difficulties with priming/bleeding DPA type injection pumps after a routine filter change on a hitherto serviceable and defect free engine, don't rush into opting for the same expensive and needless remedy that you chose.

 

I think that everything that you've posted so far is a very clear pointer to the 'expertise' that you undoubtedly don't have, and I do agree that the seemingly endless parading of your misconceptions is definitely getting tedious.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[dmr]

Well, I have read all 11 pages and have not understood any of it. Just glad that the engine is now running OK and that you can now do the BCN Challenge.

 

See you both soon.

 

 

Bad news here, think we might not make the BCN this year but will be back in 2017. PM sent.

However will be passing through Bham at some stage on the way North and doing the Market in September so can hopefully meet up.

 

.................Dave

Edited April 6, 2016 by dmr

[Tony Dunkley]

I've been contacted by another forum member who has directed me to the following Post from a 2013 Topic :~

 

dmr, on 18 Nov 2013 - 9:15 PM, said:

................... ....................... . . . . . . .

 

We also had a pump issue with contamination. It was something in some bad diesel (that I was given) that went straight through the filters and stuck the moving parts within the pump together. I believe Stanadynes work to even tighter tolerances than other pumps.

I found that many pump specialists were not too happy about working on Stanadynes so find a proper Stanadyne agent if you can, and remind them not to reset the idle speed or you will get a very fast tickover.

SS Diesels in Hedge End near Southampton were brilliant but they are not that easy to get to, they stripped and inspected the pump whilst we waited, then had it cleaned, rebuilt and tested the following morning.,

 

............Dave.

 

This appears to be somewhat similar to the more recent episode which initiated this thread, and that the recurrence you said you wanted to avoid [in Post #209] has already been and gone.

The "moving parts within the pump" that you describe as being "stuck" together would undoubtedly be the same small and lightly spring loaded components of the same pressure regulating valve at the transfer pump end of the injection pump that I first directed you to in my post #87 as being the cause of your more recent difficulties.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[bag 'o' bones]

An interesting topic which I'm sure other DM3 owners fill find useful.

 

Warning to those concerned - lets not let it degrade into a slanging match!

[Tony Dunkley]

An interesting topic which I'm sure other DM3 owners fill find useful.

 

Warning to those concerned - lets not let it degrade into a slanging match!

 

I'm equally sure that the owners of the few DM3's there are in boats won't be the slightest bit interested in it.

[BD3Bill]

I shall leave this here...

 

Watch it until at least 15mins, it's nearly an hour, but bloody good !

 

I shall thank Mr Dunkley for telling us this useful info, I DO appreciate it, I have worked on old Ford Tractors and have a BD3 in our boat.

I did not know there was a filter IN the injector pump, again thank you !

 

The old guy in the YT link shared the part number for the repair kit,

It's a Sparex kit, part number S57135. I have ordered one from my local New Holland dealer today ! :0)

Then I have it IF the problem ever occurs.... I'm like that :0)

 

Cheers and thanks again,

 

Bill

 

ETA the pic for the link actually, and coincidentally has his grubby digit pointing at where the filter is haha!

Edited April 6, 2016 by BD3Bill

[dmr]

Not going to argue with Tony but must just point out that my pump is a Stanadyne even though Tony keeps telling me its a CAV. They are very different pumps though do work in the same basic way as Stanadyne licensed the RoosaMaster concept to CAV many many years ago.

 

.............Dave

[dmr]

I've been contacted by another forum member who has directed me to the following Post from a 2013 Topic :~

 

dmr, on 18 Nov 2013 - 9:15 PM, said:

................... ....................... . . . . . . .

 

We also had a pump issue with contamination. It was something in some bad diesel (that I was given) that went straight through the filters and stuck the moving parts within the pump together. I believe Stanadynes work to even tighter tolerances than other pumps.

I found that many pump specialists were not too happy about working on Stanadynes so find a proper Stanadyne agent if you can, and remind them not to reset the idle speed or you will get a very fast tickover.

SS Diesels in Hedge End near Southampton were brilliant but they are not that easy to get to, they stripped and inspected the pump whilst we waited, then had it cleaned, rebuilt and tested the following morning.,

 

............Dave.

 

This appears to be somewhat similar to the more recent episode which initiated this thread, and that the recurrence you said you wanted to avoid [in Post #209] has already been and gone.

The "moving parts within the pump" that you describe as being "stuck" together would undoubtedly be the same small and lightly spring loaded components of the same pressure regulating valve at the transfer pump end of the injection pump that I first directed you to in my post #87 as being the cause of your more recent difficulties.

 

Two very different events with different causes and different symptoms.

However...

This is getting very very tedious and just a touch unpleasant, If any forum members want to keep up to date with any developments or find out more details they can contact me by pm, but I am no longer posting in this thread.

 

...............Dave

[bag 'o' bones]

Thank you for everyone who has contributed to this topic but I think it is time to close.