Ive broken my Engine, ideas needed

[Loafer]

 

The Waterfront, a tiny upstairs bar in the old wharf building, runs 4 real ales mostly from local micro breweries, no 6X, but they do often do Sharps if you like the big names. Quite a few from Plain Ales (Salisbury Plain micro).

I suspect you will like the K&A, if I cant fix this engine we might still be at Pewsey when you get here.

 

................Dave

 

I have done the K&A before, Dave, and didn't enjoy a lot of it. My lasting memories are very busy towpaths, cyclists tearing about, not dog-friendly, with noisy hooting trains right next to the canal for ages. We WERE going to be doing it again this year, in company with another boat, but they've pulled out due to domestic reasons so we're going to skip it.

 

I did enjoy Devizes though, with a splendid visit to the home of Wadworth's 6X, my favourite beer.

[GUMPY]

clean the fuel lines and use fresh fuel direct from A can don't use the tank until you have checked and proved that it is clean.......

[dmr]

Have a dip to the bottom of your fuel tank

 

 

Richard

 

I did that just a couple of weeks back and it was fine. However the only access is down the dipstick hole at the front of the tank (large area shallow tank built into floor below back cabin) and the trim of the boat would likely cause stuff to collect at the inaccessible back. Options are to cut an inspection hole (scary stuff) or to try to lift the back of the boat. Maybe a really strong polishing might stir up any stuff from the back..

[Tony Dunkley]

 

. . . . . . . . the only access is down the dipstick hole at the front of the tank (large area shallow tank built into floor below back cabin) and the trim of the boat would likely cause stuff to collect at the inaccessible back.

 

From your description of the tank, it sounds as if you've never, ever been able to drain or draw out water from the lowest part of the tank.

If that's so, then you've been very lucky to get away without having any serious fuel system/fuel injection problems for the 8 years that you've been running on fuel drawn from near the bottom of what amounts to a gigantic sedimenter.

I don't really see that you have any alternative other than to fit the inspection cover/door and lowest point draw-off pipe that it should have had from the time the boat/tank was new.

[bargemast]

 

From your description of the tank, it sounds as if you've never, ever been able to drain or draw out water from the lowest part of the tank.

If that's so, then you've been very lucky to get away without having any serious fuel system/fuel injection problems for the 8 years that you've been running on fuel drawn from near the bottom of what amounts to a gigantic sedimenter.

I don't really see that you have any alternative other than to fit the inspection cover/door and lowest point draw-off pipe that it should have had from the time the boat/tank was new.

 

Having done quite a few preventive fuel tank clean outs over the years, I have to agree entirely with Tony.

 

Peter.

[MtB]

Its the injection pump!

 

Worrying stuff here, it is rammed FULL of brown slimy stuff, just like I found on top of the injectors, and just like what plugged the return line last summer. No sign of water.

 

Without wishing to pour cold water, are we saying the injector pump is not capable of pumping brown slime? And if not, how come it was still pumping a bit of diesel?

 

This doesn't feel as though we have the full story yet...

[OldGoat]

I've only had brown slime twice - 'twer in the days before the diesel bug (haha), but it did exhibit pretty well what the OP is going through at the moment.

Looking at the posts - I've not noticed anything about him actually treating the fuel on a regular basis. Mebe time to start after cleaning the tank?

 

A suggestion that may be impracticable but, I have managed to access some uttermost parts of my tanks using the thin / thinnest pipes that come with the Pela pump. It's surprisingly flexible - so you can direct it to some extent.

[dmr]

I admit its not the best design of tank. I did drain it about 7 years ago, sucked all the fuel out up the filer hose, put a bit of clean fuel in and rocked the boat, and sucked that out, but this would not get to the very back. I also suck off the bottom whenever we are in dry dock and the boat is level. Have never found anything but perfectly clean diesel.

Fuel is treated with an additive (either Stanadyne performance or Morris Morendo), plus a precautionary dose of Marine 16 in the winter.

This problem is not crap out of the tank. it goes right through the filters (5 micron), which are changed every 600 hours and never show any significant contamination, I suspect it is the bio part of the deisel which is decomposing within the injector pump for some reason.

 

I have just stripped and inspected the lift pump. Not a sign of the slime in there.

 

Mike, I think there are a couple of bits in the pump that move against a relatively weak spring and are known for sticking, so will be easily upset by gunge.

 

..............Dave

[nicknorman]

Could it be some sort of fuel damage to seals etc within the bit between the filter and the injector pump caused by increased biofuel content? Lift pump diaphragm etc

[dmr]

Could it be some sort of fuel damage to seals etc within the bit between the filter and the injector pump caused by increased biofuel content? Lift pump diaphragm etc

 

Just inspected the lift pump and all seals. Seals are mostly in the return line where John Deere use a sort of rubber olive. All are fine.

Next job will be to inspect inside the rubber hoses. I will need to get some new ones made and then cut open the current ones. The slime really does look like solidified diesel rather than dissolved rubber. You can sort of work it back into liquid form with your fingers.

The Stanadyne agent said it almost looks like waxing.

 

................Dave

[MtB]

 

Just inspected the lift pump and all seals. Seals are mostly in the return line where John Deere use a sort of rubber olive. All are fine.

Next job will be to inspect inside the rubber hoses. I will need to get some new ones made and then cut open the current ones. The slime really does look like solidified diesel rather than dissolved rubber. You can sort of work it back into liquid form with your fingers.

The Stanadyne agent said it almost looks like waxing.

 

................Dave

 

 

Father in Law was a diesel fuels scientist/engineer as Shell UK. He used to say they put some sort of anti-waxing agent in the fuel they sold to the fuel retailers in the winter months, but left it out in summer.

 

I've often wondered about the fuel sold by fuel boats. Anti-waxing agent never ever seems to get discussed.

[Tony Dunkley]

Diesel fuel has a tendency to form gummy, almost varnish like deposits in fuel injection equipment over a longish period of time.

Your brown sludge is a mixture of this and rust particles that are small enough to pass through filters, and your bleeding/running problems were the result of enough of this muck accumulating in the pump inlet valve/gauze strainer/transfer pump/pressure regulating valve area.

Long before diesel bug became a widespread problem, this brown sludge was causing the same starting/bleeding problems you have had on small engines fitted with Distributor type fuel injection pumps.

On CAV pumps it was only a few minutes work to cure the trouble by taking the end plate, complete with spring loaded valve and gauze off the tranfer pump and cleaning the muck out. There were just four small nuts/studs to undo, and the fuel inlet adaptor/valve holder to remove and refit, and the whole job could be done in a few minutes without removing the pump from the engine,

Edited March 30, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Guest]

 

 

Father in Law was a diesel fuels scientist/engineer as Shell UK. He used to say they put some sort of anti-waxing agent in the fuel they sold to the fuel retailers in the winter months, but left it out in summer.

 

I've often wondered about the fuel sold by fuel boats. Anti-waxing agent never ever seems to get discussed.

Maybe I am dreaming, but I seem to recall that wagon drivers used to add a drop of petrol to their diesel in winter? They used to claim that diesel "froze" but I think waxing was the correct term.

Diesel fuel has a tendency to form gummy, almost varnish like deposits in fuel injection equipment over a longish period of time.

Your brown sludge is a mixture of this and rust particles that are small enough to pass through filters, and your bleeding/running problems were the result of enough of this muck accumulating in the pump inlet valve/gauze strainer/transfer pump/pressure regulating valve area.

Long before diesel bug became a widespread problem, this brown sludge was causing the same starting/bleeding problems you have had on small engines fitted with Distributor type fuel injection pumps.

On CAV pumps it was only a few minutes work to cure the trouble by taking the end plate, complete with spring loaded valve and gauze off the pump and cleaning the muck out. There were just four small nuts/studs to undo, and the fuel inlet adaptor/valve holder to remove and refit, and the whole job could be done in a few minutes without removing the pump from the engine,

I have often wondered why the electric lift pumps have the small filter in (Vetus etc.) and having read your post I am guessing this is the reason?

[dmr]

Diesel fuel has a tendency to form gummy, almost varnish like deposits in fuel injection equipment over a longish period of time.

Your brown sludge is a mixture of this and rust particles that are small enough to pass through filters, and your bleeding/running problems were the result of enough of this muck accumulating in the pump inlet valve/gauze strainer/transfer pump/pressure regulating valve area.

Long before diesel bug became a widespread problem, this brown sludge was causing the same starting/bleeding problems you have had on small engines fitted with Distributor type fuel injection pumps.

On CAV pumps it was only a few minutes work to cure the trouble by taking the end plate, complete with spring loaded valve and gauze off the tranfer pump and cleaning the muck out. There were just four small nuts/studs to undo, and the fuel inlet adaptor/valve holder to remove and refit, and the whole job could be done in a few minutes without removing the pump from the engine,

 

I am aware of the varnish/gum and fine rust (or whatever). I believe one of the jobs of the various additives is to dissolve this gum.

In my case, on balance, I don't think this is the issue. The rest of the fuel supply is very clean and this contamination is quite loose, not stuck to the surface of the fuel system like the varnish/gum would. It could of course be the additives stopping it from "plating" the fuel system? It does appear to start at the injection pump and I was surprised to find the lift pump almost perfectly clean. Lift pump has done 14000 hours. I am inclined to think its either due to the heat within the injection pump, or possibly "dead" areas in the pump where the fuel is not moving.

 

.............Dave

[Tony Dunkley]

 

I am aware of the varnish/gum and fine rust (or whatever). I believe one of the jobs of the various additives is to dissolve this gum.

In my case, on balance, I don't think this is the issue. The rest of the fuel supply is very clean and this contamination is quite loose, not stuck to the surface of the fuel system like the varnish/gum would. It could of course be the additives stopping it from "plating" the fuel system? It does appear to start at the injection pump and I was surprised to find the lift pump almost perfectly clean. Lift pump has done 14000 hours. I am inclined to think its either due to the heat within the injection pump, or possibly "dead" areas in the pump where the fuel is not moving.

 

.............Dave

 

It always starts to accumulate around the 'in' side [transfer pump] of a DPA type injector pump and not in the lift pump, which is why CAV put a very fine gauze strainer in the 'fuel in' adapter on that type of pump. This muck doesn't actually harm anything, it just clags things up and stops them from working, and it forms a brown, snuff takers snot-like coating on the filter gauze, which on CAV pumps were a throw away and renew item from the service kit.

The probable reason is that the operating pressure around the transfer pump and it's associated valves, although much less than injector opening pressures, is many times greater than the lift pump delivery pressure.

I'm not familiar with Stanadyne distributor type pumps [which is what I'm assuming you've got], but I wouldn't think they'll be very much different from the CAV layout and design.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[dmr]

Intuitively I would expect deposits to form in low pressure regions but all the evidence here suggests that you are probably correct.

Sadly getting a Stanadyne pump apart is not trivial. The Stanadyne people are suggesting a total strip down and rebuild which is not a skill I want to learn. If it was just removing a cover or two I might give it a go.

Unless anyone has any bright ideas I am coming round to the notion that I will need to get the pump off, stripped and cleaned, once every two or three years. Its a bit scary getting the pump off though actually not too difficult.

I do have a spare pump and the Stanadyne agent is going to check that for me so that I can carry a spare. Trouble is injector pumps are a bit like milk and don't appreciate long term storage.

 

...................Dave

[Tony Dunkley]

Intuitively I would expect deposits to form in low pressure regions but all the evidence here suggests that you are probably correct.

Sadly getting a Stanadyne pump apart is not trivial. The Stanadyne people are suggesting a total strip down and rebuild which is not a skill I want to learn. If it was just removing a cover or two I might give it a go.

Unless anyone has any bright ideas I am coming round to the notion that I will need to get the pump off, stripped and cleaned, once every two or three years. Its a bit scary getting the pump off though actually not too difficult.

I do have a spare pump and the Stanadyne agent is going to check that for me so that I can carry a spare. Trouble is injector pumps are a bit like milk and don't appreciate long term storage.

 

...................Dave

 

They're having your trousers down, a complete pump overhaul/rebuild is completely unnecessary.

The problems [muck] will be only around the 'fuel in' and transfer pump part of the injection pump. The engine, so you say, was functioning perfectly well prior to the filter change, so that rules out any defects/damage/significant wear in the distributor head/high pressure plungers.

All that is necessary is to check and clean up the transfer pump vanes/expander springs and the associated inlet and pressure regulating valves and filter gauzes.

Is the transfer pump on the end of the main pump body, like the CAV pumps ? From what I remember of a Stanadyne injector pump on a Transit, I think it looked as if it might be behind the high pressure head, but still only needing a few more minutes work to get at.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[dmr]

This is the pump....

 

http://www.stanadyne.com/dealerportal/ssi/english/Product%20Manual/99689.pdf

 

you can see why I am not keen to take it apart myself.

 

I have removed the pump, which is not trivial, and driven it some distance to a Stanadyne agent that I trust. I want a full strip and rebuild! It would be daft to do only half a job. I want confidence in this pump, I don't want it to let me down going between Salters Lode and Denver, or somewhere bad like that.

S & S Diesels don't really strike me as rip off merchants. They do injector testing free of charge, and the initial strip and inspection of the pump is free of charge, I rather wonder how they stay in business.

However I am expecting a substantial bill for this work.

 

http://www.ss-diesel-services.co.uk/index.html

 

.................Dave

[bizzard]

I think I would have tried the blitz clean method, a method I've mentioned a few times before which works wonders cleaning injector pumps and injector nozzles. That is to half empty the engines filter unit and top it up with (diesel engine fuel system cleaner)50/50, whack it back, maybe a little bleed and start up at about half throttle and rev up and down for 10 minutes whilst the cleaner does its job. Has always cleared dribbling sooted up injector nozzles for me.

[Tony Dunkley]

This is the pump....

 

http://www.stanadyne.com/dealerportal/ssi/english/Product%20Manual/99689.pdf

 

you can see why I am not keen to take it apart myself.

 

I have removed the pump, which is not trivial, and driven it some distance to a Stanadyne agent that I trust. I want a full strip and rebuild! It would be daft to do only half a job. I want confidence in this pump, I don't want it to let me down going between Salters Lode and Denver, or somewhere bad like that.

S & S Diesels don't really strike me as rip off merchants. They do injector testing free of charge, and the initial strip and inspection of the pump is free of charge, I rather wonder how they stay in business.

However I am expecting a substantial bill for this work.

 

http://www.ss-diesel-services.co.uk/index.html

 

.................Dave

 

Your pump in that link is a near straight copy of the early CAV mechanically governed DPA injector pump, and the pressure regulating valve, which is where the muck is that's caused your problems, is as easily accessible as it is on the CAV pumps. The only real difference is that the transfer pump end plate [cap] is screwed on instead of being secured with 4 x studs and nuts.

The belief that anything less than a fully rebuilt pump is more likely to let you down than your old pump minus the muck is a total fallacy.

A build up of slimy, sticky muck in the transfer pump regulating valve doesn't have any effect on engine running and reliability, as your engine had adequately demonstrated prior to your recent filter change, but when it's built up to the extent that yours had, it does prevent the pump from being fully bled and primed if it gets air into it during a filter change.

You're right to expect a substantial bill for the unnecessary pump rebuild, . . . no doubt it will also include elements to cover the 'free' injector testing and pump stripdown/inspection.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[bargemast]

When the Beatles were singing "The best things in life are free" they surely didn't have fuel injectionpumps in mind.

 

There's no business that works for free, they won't charge you for certain things, and to make up for it, you pay double for the rest.

 

Peter.

[Loafer]

You've all got me worried about my injection pump now, and I don't even know where it is. I'm a natural worrier.

 

I hope my BD3 keeps going until I die.

 

Worried, of High Onn.

[Tony Dunkley]

You've all got me worried about my injection pump now, and I don't even know where it is. I'm a natural worrier.

 

I hope my BD3 keeps going until I die.

 

Worried, of High Onn.

 

No need to worry. If yours does develop the same fault it will only happen when you're tied up somewhere changing filters.

 

 

Philosophical, of Nottingham.

[Loafer]

 

No need to worry. If yours does develop the same fault it will only happen when you're tied up somewhere changing filters.

 

 

Philosophical, of Nottingham.

 

 

Oh No! I'm just about to do that very thing!

 

I can't sleep now!

[bargemast]

Oh No! I'm just about to do that very thing!

 

I can't sleep now!

 

If you can't sleep, you can take your dog for a nice long night walk, that will make you tired enough to enable you a good night sleep, and you can have a fresh start worrying (for nothing) tomorrow.

 

Night night,

 

Peter.