Potential Step Change In Battery Technology

[Alan de Enfield]

A breakthrough in electrochemistry at Cambridge university could lead the way to rechargeable super-batteries that pack five times more energy into a given space than today’s best batteries, greatly extending the range of electric vehicles and potentially transforming the economics of electricity storage.

Chemistry professor Clare Grey and her team have overcome technical challenges in the development of lithium-air batteries — the only cells theoretically capable of giving electric cars the range of petrol and diesel vehicles without having to carry excessively bulky and heavy battery packs.

 

The system demonstrated in the Cambridge lab is 90 per cent efficient, say the researchers, and it can be recharged 2,000 times

 

..............it will enable a car to drive from London to Edinburgh on a single charge, with batteries that cost and weigh one-fifth of the lithium-ion cells that power today’s electric cars.
.

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/149ca550-7e30-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html#axzz3q8e6vG7X

Edited October 31, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[Top cat]

I hope that this time it's real, I've read so many claims of battery breakthroughs but here we are still using 150yr old lead acid technology. Btw when I followed the link I got an overlay screen wanting money.

 

Top Cat

[Alan de Enfield]

. Btw when I followed the link I got an overlay screen wanting money.

 

Top Cat

 

I don't know why that is ( I don't pay and get free access) maybe its something to do with it being a copy and paste.

It has happened before which is why I actually included enough text to make sense of the subject.

[IanD]

Lead acid is used on boats because weight and size aren't so important and they are by far the cheapest battery per kWh at the moment -- about £90/kWh for T-105.

 

The cost per kWh of (conventional) lightweight compact lithium batteries is dropping due to adoption in cars like the Tesla pushing volumes up, and is now being promoted for home power storage applications like the Tesla Powerwall, but they're still more than £200/kWh.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/oct/27/tesla-powerwall-batteries-flow-lithium-energy-storage-revolution

 

If the lithium-air cells are even smaller and lighter than conventional lithium, it still remains to be seen whether they're cheaper or not -- probably they'll carry a price premium for the smaller size/weight, at least initially.

[Paul C]

There's some interesting background reading on the Chevrolet Volt - basically, while the technology has been developed to a stage where the car is possible to make in reasonable numbers (thus a bit of economy of scale), its still not cost effective to buy a plug-in hybrid (I'll leave the distinction between EV and PHEV for now - if the vast majority of your journeys are within a PHEV's electric range, then its basically an EV for those journeys, while offering a solution to range anxiety).

 

So its not just the technology, but the cost too, which must be addressed long term.

 

At the moment also, the whole electric car idea is somewhat propped up by government grants too - as they become more widespread, these will gradually disappear or become insignificant so this must be taken into account in the costs too!

[Top cat]

I'm running a hybrid car and love it so I enquired with a specialist about converting our boat to hybrid drive. I was told I had to provide a separate battery room that would be filled with a couple of tons of lead acid cells, cost 15K plus fitting. My whole car cost less than that and it most certainly does not have a ton of lead acid cells aboard. It's the the boat industry joined the 21st century and used automotive technology

So I'm looking forward to better batteries

 

Top Cat

[Paul C]

I'm running a hybrid car and love it so I enquired with a specialist about converting our boat to hybrid drive. I was told I had to provide a separate battery room that would be filled with a couple of tons of lead acid cells, cost 15K plus fitting. My whole car cost less than that and it most certainly does not have a ton of lead acid cells aboard. It's the the boat industry joined the 21st century and used automotive technology

So I'm looking forward to better batteries

 

Top Cat

 

Prius?

[dmr]

I am an old cynic, but sadly these days university researchers are under the same pressures as just about everybody else and have to play the politicians games in order to get research funding. One thing that has to be done is to stress how your research is gong to revolutionise the world and make a load of money. So a chemist can't just ask for money to investigate some interesting chemistry. they have to do a press release claiming its gong to make a great new battery for the motor industry or cure all diseases known to mankind.

Its rather sad because if sets unrealistically high expectations and makes very clever people look a bit silly.

 

.............Dave

[Chalky]

The problem is that the energy density of fossil fuels is huge compared to batteries. The average car fuel tank contains about 3 MW (3 *10^6) of power when its full and can be filled in less than 5 minutes

 

Lead acid is used on boats because weight and size aren't so important and they are by far the cheapest battery per kWh at the moment -- about £90/kWh for T-105.

 

The cost per kWh of (conventional) lightweight compact lithium batteries is dropping due to adoption in cars like the Tesla pushing volumes up, and is now being promoted for home power storage applications like the Tesla Powerwall, but they're still more than £200/kWh.

 

The equivalent storage for a Tesla power wall would cost £600,000 for the batteries and still need charging. The new petrol tank (+ sender and fixing kit) for my MGB cost £100. The charge (98 octane super unleaded) is less than £60. It's also considerably lighter and smaller. There's a long way to go before the economics work out.

[Robbo]

The problem with boats is not the battery technology it's the charging technology for boats been off grid especially in winter. I see fuel cells like the Efoy comfort been one of the solutions.

[Justme]

I'm running a hybrid car and love it so I enquired with a specialist about converting our boat to hybrid drive. I was told I had to provide a separate battery room that would be filled with a couple of tons of lead acid cells, cost 15K plus fitting. My whole car cost less than that and it most certainly does not have a ton of lead acid cells aboard. It's the the boat industry joined the 21st century and used automotive technology

So I'm looking forward to better batteries

 

Top Cat

 

 

They have.

 

This is a hybrid ferry.

 

http://www.cmassets.co.uk/en/our-work/projects/current-projects/hybrid-ferries-project.html

[Sea Dog]

The problem is that the energy density of fossil fuels is huge compared to batteries. The average car fuel tank contains about 3 MW (3 *10^6) of power when its full and can be filled in less than 5 minutes

 

 

The equivalent storage for a Tesla power wall would cost £600,000 for the batteries and still need charging. The new petrol tank (+ sender and fixing kit) for my MGB cost £100. The charge (98 octane super unleaded) is less than £60. It's also considerably lighter and smaller. There's a long way to go before the economics work out.

 

And that's before the Governments have to work out how to recoup the lost revenue from Petrol/Diesel.

[Paul C]

I'm running a hybrid car and love it so I enquired with a specialist about converting our boat to hybrid drive. I was told I had to provide a separate battery room that would be filled with a couple of tons of lead acid cells, cost 15K plus fitting. My whole car cost less than that and it most certainly does not have a ton of lead acid cells aboard. It's the the boat industry joined the 21st century and used automotive technology

So I'm looking forward to better batteries

 

Top Cat

 

There's a good chance that secondhand batteries from hybrids and electric cars will be replaced and retasked into less demanding (ie don't need so much energy density etc) roles - so its very possible that in the future, boaters will be able to buy much more advanced battery technology, albeit secondhand.

[IanD]

As was pointed out, unless there are regular charging stations -- which wouldn't be so difficult for the canals compared to roads, but would cost a lot of money to install -- you would need huge (and very expensive) battery banks to be able to travel long distances between occasional charging stations. And given the minute number of boats (and the much smaller fuel usage) compared to cars it makes no environmental sense to do this, unlike cars where motives include reduced energy use and far lower pollution in cities.

[Top cat]

Prius?

No its a Yaris

 

In a few states in the USA they charge higher road tax for electric cars to offset the loss of tax on gasolene, I would expect that practice will become more widespread once electric cars go mainstream.

 

T C

[MtB]

If the lithium-air cells are even smaller and lighter than conventional lithium, it still remains to be seen whether they're cheaper or not -- probably they'll carry a price premium for the smaller size/weight, at least initially.

 

 

The OP states they will be cheaper. One fifth of the cost of lithium iron batteries:

 

 

 

..............it will enable a car to drive from London to Edinburgh on a single charge, with batteries that cost and weigh one-fifth of the lithium-ion cells that power today’s electric cars.

.

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/149ca550-7e30-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html#axzz3q8e6vG7X

Quite a brave claim!

[blackrose]

As was pointed out, unless there are regular charging stations -- which wouldn't be so difficult for the canals compared to roads, but would cost a lot of money to install -- you would need huge (and very expensive) battery banks to be able to travel long distances between occasional charging stations. And given the minute number of boats (and the much smaller fuel usage) compared to cars it makes no environmental sense to do this, unlike cars where motives include reduced energy use and far lower pollution in cities.

I can't really see that a few hundred thousand electrically/battery propelled canal boats (most of which are moored up at any one time) would really be that environmentally advantageous compared to the millions of cars on our roads. Where new battery technology would really be beneficial on boats is in increased capacity and reduced charging times for domestic banks.

Edited November 1, 2015 by blackrose

[Top cat]

The reason I would like a hybrid boat isn't to cut CO2 emmisions but to not have the noise and fumes when going through locks. Being able to do the odd day trip after charging the battery for free from the solar panels on our house roof would be nice too. Obviously longer trips are going to need the diesel and as others have rightly said the co2 emmitted by canal boats is trivial compared to road transport.

 

T C

[Paul C]

The reason I would like a hybrid boat isn't to cut CO2 emmisions but to not have the noise and fumes when going through locks. Being able to do the odd day trip after charging the battery for free from the solar panels on our house roof would be nice too. Obviously longer trips are going to need the diesel and as others have rightly said the co2 emmitted by canal boats is trivial compared to road transport.

 

T C

 

Just fit a cat and DPF then?

[blackrose]

The reason I would like a hybrid boat isn't to cut CO2 emmisions but to not have the noise and fumes when going through locks.

I thought engine noise was one of the attractions of vintage engines, and most modern engines are pretty quiet - well mine is anyway. I remember casting off from my morning at Brentford once and my neighbour on an old Dutch barge asked me why I hadn't started the engine (I had).

 

I can't say that diesel fumes have ever been an issue for me. On the Thames you have to switch your engine off anyway, and on canals and smaller rivers I'm usually working the locks as I'm single handed. If the fumes were a problem I'd just switch the engine off before getting off the boat.

Edited November 1, 2015 by blackrose

[Jambo]

The problem is that the energy density of fossil fuels is huge compared to batteries. The average car fuel tank contains about 3 MW (3 *10^6) of power when its full and can be filled in less than 5 minutes

 

 

The equivalent storage for a Tesla power wall would cost £600,000 for the batteries and still need charging. The new petrol tank (+ sender and fixing kit) for my MGB cost £100. The charge (98 octane super unleaded) is less than £60. It's also considerably lighter and smaller. There's a long way to go before the economics work out.

 

I don't really think it's particularly useful to compare a battery against the energy in a tank of fuel as internal combustion engine cars are hugely inefficient compared to EVs. To switch the comparison around, if you had an EV with a battery pack with the equivalent energy storage capacity as a typical fuel tank you'd be able to drive more than 2,000 miles which I think we can all agree is excessive

[Paul C]

 

I don't really think it's particularly useful to compare a battery against the energy in a tank of fuel as internal combustion engine cars are hugely inefficient compared to EVs. To switch the comparison around, if you had an EV with a battery pack with the equivalent energy storage capacity as a typical fuel tank you'd be able to drive more than 2,000 miles which I think we can all agree is excessive

 

Interesting.....I've never liked filling up with fuel, but accept that its needed every 400-600 miles or so. Some cars with particularly efficient engines in a model range with a ood fuel tank can do 800 or more miles on a tank.

 

What would you say was a reasonable range a car should have between refill/recharge? Obviously a refill takes 5 mins or so BUT must be done at a filling station; and a battery charge could be done at home BUT takes hours - so two answers are okay!

[ditchcrawler]

I'm running a hybrid car and love it so I enquired with a specialist about converting our boat to hybrid drive. I was told I had to provide a separate battery room that would be filled with a couple of tons of lead acid cells, cost 15K plus fitting. My whole car cost less than that and it most certainly does not have a ton of lead acid cells aboard. It's the the boat industry joined the 21st century and used automotive technology

So I'm looking forward to better batteries

 

Top Cat

You spoke to the wrong people

[Top cat]

Who should I talk to?

 

T C

[Jambo]

 

Interesting.....I've never liked filling up with fuel, but accept that its needed every 400-600 miles or so. Some cars with particularly efficient engines in a model range with a ood fuel tank can do 800 or more miles on a tank.

 

What would you say was a reasonable range a car should have between refill/recharge? Obviously a refill takes 5 mins or so BUT must be done at a filling station; and a battery charge could be done at home BUT takes hours - so two answers are okay!

 

I reckon the 200 to 300 mile mark is where we'll start to see uptake of EVs taking hold in earnest. Tesla is already there (the Model S has a range of 250 miles or thereabouts), others will follow. It's not as far as a small number of people drive occasionally (London-Edinburgh is 400 miles for example) but that's why plug in hybrids (and indeed trains and hire cars) exist. The main issue is to get the battery cost down quickly and that's underway as well, a lot faster than expected too I'm happy to say.