Potential Step Change In Battery Technology

[PaulG]

 

Yes really they are the exception. You may have noticed that the UK is generally quite a windy place, but sometimes you get periods of calm like we've had recently.

 

However the wind generation was behaving as forecast (namely very low output) because we're really quite good at forecasting wind. It was the ageing coal plants that caused the sweating at National Grid. From the FT:

 

Of course the old, unreliable coal plants need to shut down.

But replacing an unreliable source with another one that is just as unreliable is crazy.

Especially as, in the winter, windless days are usually characterised by high pressure conditions which produce colder than average temperatures at night. And of course, you've got no solar either, so what value are the so-called renewables then?

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a44bae1c-82fe-11e5-8e80-1574112844fd.html#axzz3qhPv6fFc

Edited November 6, 2015 by PaulG

[Jambo]

With respect, that's just more "cloud cuckoo land" thinking.

Everything will be OK when we have access to technology that doesn't exist yet, may not work well even when it does exist, or may not be cost effective.

 

No really, it is coming. We are leaving dumb, 20th century grids behind (at long last) and moving to something far far more sophisticated that will have much more dynamic and dispatchable demands while allowing for a far greater proportion of distributed and variable supply.

[Paul C]

With respect, that's just more "cloud cuckoo land" thinking.

Everything will be OK when we have access to technology that doesn't exist yet, may not work well even when it does exist, or may not be cost effective.

 

Smart metering rollout started in 2007 and target is completion by 2020. UK is one of the countries furthest ahead with its deployment.

[PaulG]

 

Smart metering rollout started in 2007 and target is completion by 2020. UK is one of the countries furthest ahead with its deployment.

That's alright then. The lights may be in danger of going off right now, but never mind, it will all be fixed by 2020

 

"There's also other technologies which allow us to go closer to the "marginal" situation of just enough power generation to meet demand, such as smart appliances eg a fridge which can respond to a request and turn off for an hour or so (safely - without endangering the food); and vehicle-to-grid. They're still a bit away though."

 

As I said, all in the future and nowhere near guaranteed to work!

[Jambo]

Of course the old, unreliable coal plants need to shut down.

But replacing an unreliable source with another one that is just as unreliable is crazy.

Especially as, in the winter, windless days are usually characterised by high pressure conditions which produce colder than average temperatures at night. And of course, you've got no solar either, so what value are the so-called renewables then?

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a44bae1c-82fe-11e5-8e80-1574112844fd.html#axzz3qhPv6fFc

 

they're not just as unreliable. They're variable, yes, but it's really quite predictable so you can plan around it. Multiple GW of centralised fossil and nuclear generation can drop off the grid without notice which is what destabilises things.

 

So yes we're phasing out coal (good riddance) and we're also going to build out *a lot* of renewables and gas plant in the coming decade. The government is also apparently bent on pursuing a dead duck of a nuclear design for reasons only it knows. If that actually manages to get constructed we might get one or two more but that'll be it I suspect.

[PaulG]

 

No really, it is coming.

That's what worries me.

[PaulG]

 

they're not just as unreliable. They're variable, yes, but it's really quite predictable so you can plan around it. Multiple GW of centralised fossil and nuclear generation can drop off the grid without notice which is what destabilises things.

 

So yes we're phasing out coal (good riddance) and we're also going to build out *a lot* of renewables and gas plant in the coming decade. The government is also apparently bent on pursuing a dead duck of a nuclear design for reasons only it knows. If that actually manages to get constructed we might get one or two more but that'll be it I suspect.

I think it would be pretty easy to show that there are more windless days in the UK than there are failures of coal generation plants.

The technology to build "clean" coal plants already exists and these plants are online in other countries - Canada springs to mind.

I'm not particularly a protagonist of coal as a fuel,but it is an important energy source.

Your "planning" involves duplication of generating infrastructure that is wasteful and uneconomic.

 

High energy costs are killing our industry. Ask the guys who have just been put out of work at Scunthorpe.

[cuthound]

Norway is almost entirely hydro powered rather than tidal. As far as I'm aware, there are only two tidal power plants of any size in the world and they're in France and Korea.

 

Norway has/is investing in tidal energy plants that don't require large tidal ranges, and that are relatively scaleable.

 

These for example

 

http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/14191/floating-tidal-power-plant-opened-in-norway/

http://www.businessinsider.com/norway-power-moon-2012-6?IR=TT

 

Edited to add second example.

Edited November 6, 2015 by cuthound

[cuthound]

Norway is almost entirely hydro powered rather than tidal. As far as I'm aware, there are only two tidal power plants of any size in the world and they're in France and Korea.

 

Norway has/is investing in tidal energy plants that don't require large tidal ranges, and that are relatively scaleable.

 

This for example

 

http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/14191/floating-tidal-power-plant-opened-in-norway/

Of course the old, unreliable coal plants need to shut down.

But replacing an unreliable source with another one that is just as unreliable is crazy.

Especially as, in the winter, windless days are usually characterised by high pressure conditions which produce colder than average temperatures at night. And of course, you've got no solar either, so what value are the so-called renewables then?

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a44bae1c-82fe-11e5-8e80-1574112844fd.html#axzz3qhPv6fFc

Completely agree. In this country is is often cold and still, conditions in which wind power is useless.

 

Tidal energy is the way forward for green energy, along with nuclear, but both are expensive and technically difficult compared to wind.

 

The problem with the government subsidising green energy, is that it encourages cheap but not best technology.

[IanD]

The problem with tidal energy -- like so many other renewable sources -- is that unlike Norway it can't provide more than a fraction of the UK's energy requirements, though at least it's more predictable than most renewable alternatives. Go and read "Sustainable Enrgy -- Without the Hot Air" by David MacKay (free download) and then have a rethink...