Goat

[Jerra]

 

Screw the law, the police will do what they want same as the criminals.

6.5 million animals in the last out break of FMD, would you like to be responsible for something like that?

 

I am amazed that you can't get your head round why such animals need regulated.

[billS]

The Police don't, errr, police it. The insurmountable problem you'll encounter is that nobody will sell/give you the goat.

You could try and see if the Kids Company are selling off any bankrupt stock...

[craftycarper]

Goat curry was very popular at Dave's birthday banter

. It's called curried goat, the Jamaicans think it's weird saying it the other way round, Sorry should have read all the thread first, but yes Rachel is correct and the rest of you are wrong, I eat one most Friday nights,with rice and peas, and a couple of festivals, which are a kind of jamacan dumpling, very nice and know there are know peas in the rice either, I make a rather mean rice and peas myself, if anyone wants a go I will stick my recipe up, Edited August 20, 2015 by craftycarper

[GreyLady]

_{Ay dornt be currying me Guort e like's to teak is time ya knor man!}

 

_{Whatcha be wanting a Guort fa an a Boawt man, ya nar they like a bit a tha green starf ta chomp on Ya!}

 

_{Anyhow ye mekin me harngree wee all dis talk ka curree yer!}

 

 

_{Me and me Guort gonna lack us dars, cos tha boart fella marght be camin !}

[Emerald Fox]

6.5 million animals in the last out break of FMD, would you like to be responsible for something like that?

 

I am amazed that you can't get your head round why such animals need regulated.

 

I'm not sure if the FMD and Mad Cow and Edwina Currie's Chickens hullabaloos weren't all big scams by the Government.

I do remember reading how the FMD issue was badly handled.

 

Two can play at scams. Here's the farmers at it:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1463481.stm

 

Here's the Government at it(?):

 

http://www.meetup.com/westonaprice-london/pages/Foot_and_Mouth_Scam/

 

Here's something odd. That year 2001 when I flew from Helsinki via Amsterdam to Stansted (KLM used to go to Stansted then) there was a foot bath (disinfectant for the FMD) at Helsinki airport, you stepped through wearing your shoes. Splish! Splash! But there was no scrubbing to clean the shoes, just make them wet a bit - and then off you go dripping wet muck round the airport - nothing quite like spreading it around, eh, readers?

At Amsterdam airport there was no foot bath. And no foot bath at Stansted airport. Now, you'd think that Stansted would have had one, the last defence against all those entering the country carrying FMD on their shoes, especially as we always fly somewhere in our wellies after having had a good stomp round filthy farmyards.

 

In a similar vein, why is it that at UK/European airports you're to take off your trousers' belt but not your shoes, and in the USA they want you to take off your shoes at Security yet not your belt? And they will confiscate a tiny pair of nail clippers, yet there's metal knives and forks for your airline meals?

. there are know peas in the rice either, I make a rather mean rice and peas myself, if anyone wants a go I will stick my recipe up,

 

Yes please! Give peas a chance!

Edited August 20, 2015 by Emerald Fox

[Guest]

It's better than a dog, everybody has got a dog, they're boring

My mate Dave hasn't got a dog. He hasn't got a goat either, but gets on my goat from time to time.

[Emerald Fox]

Goat Afloat in a Moat with a Stoat!

[GreyLady]

Are Goats a good idea on a Grp Boat only if they get all horny in the night i can see a few holes would be an issue.

[MtB]

 

The Police don't, errr, police it. The insurmountable problem you'll encounter is that nobody will sell/give you the goat.

 

 

But why not?

 

In most other arenas an 'under the counter' black market would establish itself.

[David Mack]

 

The Police don't, errr, police it.

But if they do catch you you'll have to goato jail (without passing go and without collecting £200).

[Jerra]

 

I'm not sure if the FMD and Mad Cow and Edwina Currie's Chickens hullabaloos weren't all big scams by the Government.

I do remember reading how the FMD issue was badly handled.

Neither the 1967 nor the 2015 FMD were scams. I was in college in 67 and did my thesis on FMD.

 

During 2001 I was living in the heart of a cattle raising area.

 

FMD is a very infectious disease with over 24 variants of the virus so vaccination isn't really sensible what you are doing is guessing at which 2 or 3 of the variants are most likely and trying to protect against them. Then there is the problem that viruses mutate very easily so you could be dealing with a new one.

 

After the 67 outbreak my one big fear was that due to public opinion the government would not go in hard enough and fast enough with the slaughter. This proved to be true not helped by the fact the original outbreak in pigs was concealed for over a week allowing infection all over the country.

 

 

EDIT: To add Edwina was a case of pure misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. She opened her mouth and put her foot in it.

 

Mad cow disease definitely existed and was a problem round here. Again please explain what anybody would be able to gain from such a scam.

 

On an island like ours slaughter is the best policy if only for animal welfare considerations. The suffering is great the recover not guaranteed and the productivity of the animal if it survives greatly reduced.

 

I will be interested in what sort of a scam you think it was and who exactly you think benefited from it.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Jerra

[Paul C]

 

 

But why not?

 

In most other arenas an 'under the counter' black market would establish itself.

 

........because trading standards does. There isn't a demand for unregulated livestock sales so a black market doesn't exist because its simply not worth the hassle/risk/etc. Of course, the occasional anomoly does occur, and a farmer occasionally sells/asks to take an untagged animal (to a slaughterhouse or fallen stock receiver) but there simply isn't the interest in doing so. Its a pain in the arse to comply with the regulations but because farmers are effectively selling retail, to a wholesale buyer, there is no leverage to be able to demand they take them. They just shrug their shoulders and more or less comply with the sometimes overburdensome and daft regulations.

Neither the 1967 nor the 2015 FMD were scams. I was in college in 67 and did my thesis on FMD.

 

During 2001 I was living in the heart of a cattle raising area.

 

FMD is a very infectious disease with over 24 variants of the virus so vaccination isn't really sensible what you are doing is guessing at which 2 or 3 of the variants are most likely and trying to protect against them. Then there is the problem that viruses mutate very easily so you could be dealing with a new one.

 

After the 67 outbreak my one big fear was that due to public opinion the government would not go in hard enough and fast enough with the slaughter. This proved to be true not helped by the fact the original outbreak in pigs was concealed for over a week allowing infection all over the country.

 

 

EDIT: To add Edwina was a case of pure misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. She opened her mouth and put her foot in it.

 

Mad cow disease definitely existed and was a problem round here. Again please explain what anybody would be able to gain from such a scam.

 

On an island like ours slaughter is the best policy if only for animal welfare considerations. The suffering is great the recover not guaranteed and the productivity of the animal if it survives greatly reduced.

 

I will be interested in what sort of a scam you think it was and who exactly you think benefited from it.

 

I think Emarald Fox is simply saying that out of misunderstanding, or a non-understanding, of the spread of infectious disaeases in livestock.

[Emerald Fox]

please explain what anybody would be able to gain from such a scam.

 

I will be interested in what sort of a scam you think it was and who exactly you think benefited from it.

 

I haven't studied the whole affair of the 2001 outbreak, and thus am unqualified to say anything, really, I'm just naturally cynical and was following it in Private Eye back then. What springs to mind now is:

 

1. Who to gain? Murdering millions (?) of innocent animals in an often cruel manner certainly keeps the price of meat up.

 

2. All the firms who were raked in to do the slaughtering didn't do it for free - looks like they made a 'killing' in more than one way.

Were smaller abattoirs closed down so that the larger ones made more gain?

 

3. So... what about the animals that were not killed? Was/Is it 100% sure that they didn't contract FMD and even today may be carriers of a virus that will suddenly 'wake up' someday?

 

4. What of the foot bath farce? And does disinfectant deal with viruses? (bacteria, yes, usually).

 

I studied Biology to A-level so have some kind of idea about diseases.

 

Hmmm... here's one book about it:

 

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41nPpELqeaL._SX303_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

"Foot and mouth disease (FMD) is currently regarded as one of the world's worst animal plagues. But how did this label become attached to a curable disease that poses little threat to human health? And why, in the epidemic of 2001, did the government's control strategy still rely upon Victorian trade restrictions and mass slaughter? This groundbreaking and well-researched book shows that, for over a century, FMD has brought fear, tragedy and sorrow- damaging businesses and affecting international relations. Yet these effects were neither inevitable nor caused by FMD itself but were, rather, the product of the legislation used to control it, and in this sense FMD is a 'manufactured' plague rather than a natural one. A Manufactured Plague turns the spotlight on this process of manufacture, revealing a rich history beset by controversy, in which party politics, class relations, veterinary ambitions, agricultural practices, the priorities of farming and the meat trade, fears for national security and scientific progress all made FMD what it is today."

[Emerald Fox]

Also of interest?

 

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/factory/ALL/585/

 

The horrific conditions in which animals were kept in a Northumberland farm contributed to the initial outbreak.

At Burnside Farm, the owner, Bobby Waugh, took sows from other pig units around the country - animals who were too worn out to have more piglets. He fattened them up and sent them for slaughter. His farm was licensed to feed his animals 'processed waste food', or pigswill, under the Animal Byproducts Order of 1999.

Waugh's pigs were kept in squalid conditions, lying in their own faeces. Dead pigs were left to rot in walkways, others lay submerged in muck. Later, he was to be prosecuted for animal cruelty and banned from keeping livestock for 15 years.

 

15 years - so he'll be allowed to keep animals again in 2016?

What makes me wonder is, are there no farm inspectors to check that farms are run properly? If so, who was Bobby Waugh's inspector?

[Paul C]

OK its an interesting distration to the topic, I see you've admitted you "are unqualified to say anything, really, [you're] just naturally cynical".

 

I've not clicked your links in the more recent post.

To answer one question, yes there are regular farm inspections. Recently the rules were changed so farms in an assurance scheme don't need to be inspected by Trading Standards, since their farm assurance inspections do the same and more.

[Jerra]

 

I haven't studied the whole affair of the 2001 outbreak, and thus am unqualified to say anything, really, I'm just naturally cynical and was following it in Private Eye back then. What springs to mind now is:

 

1. Who to gain? Murdering millions (?) of innocent animals in an often cruel manner certainly keeps the price of meat up.

 

There was no change in the price of meat as I recall. I suspect all that happened was we imported more. After all NZ lamb is as cheap or cheaper than home reared.

 

2. All the firms who were raked in to do the slaughtering didn't do it for free - looks like they made a 'killing' in more than one way.

 

So you are suggesting they somehow managed to persuade the government to run this scam for their benefit?

 

Were smaller abattoirs closed down so that the larger ones made more gain?

 

Slaughter was carried out on site and the animals burned on site or buried in communal burial sites after being taken away in sealed lorries. If anything slaughter houses suffered as there was no trade as animal movement ceased entirely.

 

3. So... what about the animals that were not killed? Was/Is it 100% sure that they didn't contract FMD and even today may be carriers of a virus that will suddenly 'wake up' someday?

 

You know little about FMD I see. All animals on affected farms were slaughtered including in many cases animals which could neither catch or carry the disease such as dogs. Often animals on adjoining farms were slaughtered to provide a cordon sanitaire. Incubation of the disease is 3 to 6 days so if there were any infected it showed quickly. Of course carriers couldn't be ruled out but the fact there were no new unexplained out breaks in the years following suggested there weren't any. All animals alive then will almost certainly be dead now. Which part of this suggests a government scam?

 

4. What of the foot bath farce? And does disinfectant deal with viruses? (bacteria, yes, usually).

 

The disinfectants used were proved to kill viruses as far back as 67. These to m,y knowledge were mainly Lysol (yes it does kil viruses) and Jeyes Fluid (which also kills viruses to the extent that it is used against Bird Flu H5N1 virus) In Worcester (in 67) the disease was kept at one side of the river by the simple principle of removing the tarmac on all bridges and making a bed of disinfectant straw. How does that fit in with a government scam anyway?

 

I studied Biology to A-level so have some kind of idea about diseases.

 

Hmmm... here's one book about it:

 

 

 

 

"Foot and mouth disease (FMD) is currently regarded as one of the world's worst animal plagues. But how did this label become attached to a curable disease that poses little threat to human health? And why, in the epidemic of 2001, did the government's control strategy still rely upon Victorian trade restrictions and mass slaughter? This groundbreaking and well-researched book shows that, for over a century, FMD has brought fear, tragedy and sorrow- damaging businesses and affecting international relations. Yet these effects were neither inevitable nor caused by FMD itself but were, rather, the product of the legislation used to control it, and in this sense FMD is a 'manufactured' plague rather than a natural one. A Manufactured Plague turns the spotlight on this process of manufacture, revealing a rich history beset by controversy, in which party politics, class relations, veterinary ambitions, agricultural practices, the priorities of farming and the meat trade, fears for national security and scientific progress all made FMD what it is today."

 

Slaughter was used as I have already said because of a number of considerations. Namely:

 

Animal welfare animals which do survive suffer greatly often losing hooves and being unable to eat due to the mouth lesions.

 

Vaccination is not reliable you have to do it well before the outbreak and it is a guess as to which mutant of the virus you protect against.

The spread on to the continent wasn't prevented by their vaccination program and many many animals were slaughtered there as the vaccination wasn't preventing the spread. Well it wouldn't would it it would only prevent it in those vaccinated against the right strains and it could still be passed on to those which hadn't vaccinated as the risk was low not having had outbreaks for years.

 

Have you actually read the book or are you just quoting from the publicity blurb. It merely rehashes the arguments which have been going on since the 50s outbreak and in 2001 were not considered correct by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

 

It is too late when an outbreak has been identified to start vaccination and until it happened you don't know which form of the virus you are fighting.

National productivity on farms would have been drastically reduced making many unprofitable.

 

Incidentally how is the government in conjunction with the vets of the country a scam.

 

Incidentally Dr Woods of Kings College London is a Reader in the History of Human and Animal Health. To the best of my knowledge she has no veterinary qualifications or experience.

 

However I know you won't be convinced so I will leave it at that.

[kris88]

Just make shure it's a narrowgoat, otherwise you want be able to travel the whole network.

[GreyLady]

Just make shure it's a narrowgoat, otherwise you want be able to travel the whole network.

Mare'rrrrrrrrrr that was a good one.

Edited August 21, 2015 by grumpy146

[kris88]

When did all this legislation come in last time I had a goat, I just got it off he farmer down the road. But I wouldn't want one on my boat.

Regards kris

Edited August 21, 2015 by kris88

[Paul C]

When did all this legislation come in last time I had a goat, I just got it off he farmer down the road. But I wouldn't want one on my boat.

Regards kris

 

Quite a while ago now.

[GreyLady]

[craftycarper]

Neither the 1967 nor the 2015 FMD were scams. I was in college in 67 and did my thesis on FMD.

 

During 2001 I was living in the heart of a cattle raising area.

 

FMD is a very infectious disease with over 24 variants of the virus so vaccination isn't really sensible what you are doing is guessing at which 2 or 3 of the variants are most likely and trying to protect against them. Then there is the problem that viruses mutate very easily so you could be dealing with a new one.

 

After the 67 outbreak my one big fear was that due to public opinion the government would not go in hard enough and fast enough with the slaughter. This proved to be true not helped by the fact the original outbreak in pigs was concealed for over a week allowing infection all over the country.

 

 

EDIT: To add Edwina was a case of pure misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. She opened her mouth and put her foot in it.

 

Mad cow disease definitely existed and was a problem round here. Again please explain what anybody would be able to gain from such a scam.

 

On an island like ours slaughter is the best policy if only for animal welfare considerations. The suffering is great the recover not guaranteed and the productivity of the animal if it survives greatly reduced.

 

I will be interested in what sort of a scam you think it was and who exactly you think benefited from it.

. As a country person, although I do live on the outskirts of Bristol, I was never convinced about the foot and mouth outbreaks, and felt it funny they always flair up at a time when farmers start protesting about certain things, this can always be put down to conspiracy,s and brushed to the side, but the one thing that never stood up to examination for me,( and please correct me if I'm wrong) was the simple fact that all cloven hoofed animals can catch and carry foot and mouth??? So how come that the country side was in effect closed,all animals even suspected of carrying the disease or being near an animal that had the disease, were slaughtered and burned, yet wandering around from farm to farm completely unchecked, were thousands of roe, muntjac and fallow deer, all with cloven hooves and all totally at liberty to roam as far and wide as they wanted, yet during the entire sorry saga, I never ever heard of one deer being shot, or ever saw a deer carcass being burned?? Please if you can enlighten me as to why,

[craftycarper]

Screw the law, the police will do what they want same as the criminals.

if it's of any relevance to you, I had a couple of goats many years ago, though certainly within the last twenty years, which I just picked up from a cheese farm for about twenty quid,never asked for any paper work when I bought, them,when I sold them or when they went to the vet, even when my nanny gave birth to a kid, I was never asked to register them or tell anyone about them,though when the wife wanted some of those micro pigs we did have to get a defra licence,even though it was all done online we never spoke to anyone,met anyone or had anyone come out to check us or the land for suitability,

[dor]

if it's of any relevance to you, I had a couple of goats many years ago, though certainly within the last twenty years, which I just picked up from a cheese farm for about twenty quid,never asked for any paper work when I bought, them,when I sold them or when they went to the vet, even when my nanny gave birth to a kid, I was never asked to register them or tell anyone about them,though when the wife wanted some of those micro pigs we did have to get a defra licence,even though it was all done online we never spoke to anyone,met anyone or had anyone come out to check us or the land for suitability,

 

I kept a few pigs in the late '70s. It was around that time that they introduced quite stringent rules on pig movements. At the time there was still no requirements to keep detailed movement records for sheep or cattle.

[Alan Saunders]

. As a country person, although I do live on the outskirts of Bristol, I was never convinced about the foot and mouth outbreaks, and felt it funny they always flair up at a time when farmers start protesting about certain things, this can always be put down to conspiracy,s and brushed to the side, but the one thing that never stood up to examination for me,( and please correct me if I'm wrong) was the simple fact that all cloven hoofed animals can catch and carry foot and mouth??? So how come that the country side was in effect closed,all animals even suspected of carrying the disease or being near an animal that had the disease, were slaughtered and burned, yet wandering around from farm to farm completely unchecked, were thousands of roe, muntjac and fallow deer, all with cloven hooves and all totally at liberty to roam as far and wide as they wanted, yet during the entire sorry saga, I never ever heard of one deer being shot, or ever saw a deer carcass being burned?? Please if you can enlighten me as to why,

My best attempt at conspiracy theory at the time (2001) was that an enemy could damage the economy by obtaining cultures of the virus and simply wander around fields using a small sprayer to directly infect most of each herd. Similarly, indulging in the popular pastime of flying aircraft between the New York twin towers in 'MS Flight Simulator' I should have been able to predict the likelihood of suicide attack.

 

The Government is determined to eradicate badgers as carriers of TB but F&M is an occasional threat and the general public will not stomach the killing of cute 'Bambies'.

 

In 2001 I lived between a dairy and a beef farm. I needed to visit my boat in another county where there were farms infected with F&M. I put on wellington boots in the car park near the boat. On return to the car park I washed the mud off of the boots with canal water and sealed them in two layers of plastic carrier bags, there was no antiseptic bath available. I then consulted our local farmers who assured me that I had taken reasonable precautions, cleanliness was better than any antiseptic bath.

 

My neighbours herds avoided F&M disease and I, unlike others, did my best to avoid its spread.

 

Alan

Edited August 21, 2015 by Alan Saunders