tHE LAST WORKING BOATS - IMAGES FROM THE EARLY 1970'S & 80'S

[pete harrison]

Also, did one of the Severners, a full length one I think, with a conversion on it have at one time a wheel-steering arrangement? Late 80's, early 90's

I am not aware of any full length 'Severner' being wheel steered in the 1980's or 1990's. The only thing I can think of is back then PINE usually tied in the canal basin in Chester, or more specifically between the locks leading down to the River Dee. My recollections are that PINE was either unconverted or part converted at that time. Another boat also tied at the same location was the 'blue top' butty YEO, which was part converted (part steel cabin and part 'blue tops') and had something like a wheelhouse at its stern - an arrangement that was certainly in place when I photographed it at Chester on 18 October 1992. Are you remembering a combination of these two boats at the same location ?

[zenataomm]

I understand Fir was shortened by Wyvern.

 

A friend of mine bought her in the early 80s and bought one of those small books on Severners.

It stated that they were all steel hulls and he commented on this when stopping off once at Wyvern to ask what they knew about the boat's history.

 

One of the son's commented that it was he who'd shortened and knocked the elm bottoms out. My friend questioned this as his book quoted "all steel". So to prove it he was shown photos of the deed, where vegetable bottoms and a kelson were clearly visible.

[alan_fincher]

I understand Fir was shortened by Wyvern.

 

A friend of mine bought her in the early 80s and bought one of those small books on Severners.

It stated that they were all steel hulls and he commented on this when stopping off once at Wyvern to ask what they knew about the boat's history.

 

One of the son's commented that it was he who'd shortened and knocked the elm bottoms out. My friend questioned this as his book quoted "all steel". So to prove it he was shown photos of the deed, where vegetable bottoms and a kelson were clearly visible.

 

A shame neither son now seems equally prepared to make available detail from their archives of some of the very historic boats they used to operate. Certainly James doesn't seem that interested, and insisted to me that the two "Niddle Northwich" boats had both been "Small Woolwich" boats......

 

Yes, the Alan H Faulkner booklet wrongly describes these boats as "all steel". Not only were they composite, with wood bottoms, my understanding is that they were iron composite, despite the fact that welded iron construction would have been highly unusual for a 1930s built narrow boat.

 

Describing them as steel, is I believe also wrong.

 

I'm sure I have seen somewhere a claim that they were shortened at Braunston originally, but that would seem to be wrong then.

 

In Wyvern use one of them, (Bridget I think), retained part of her original engine room, as accommodation, with the wood cabin then extending it forward, wheres (I think) Olive had an all wood purpose built cabin.

[pete harrison]

I understand Fir was shortened by Wyvern.

 

One of the son's commented that it was he who'd shortened and knocked the elm bottoms out.

Wyvern Shipping Company Ltd.'s own records state that both of their 'Severners' were shortened by Blue Line Cruisers Ltd., Braunston. Perhaps one of the sons assisted with or oversaw this hull conversion at Braunston.

[alan_fincher]

Wyvern Shipping Company Ltd.'s own records state that both of their 'Severners' were shortened by Blue Line Cruisers Ltd., Braunston. Perhaps one of the sons assisted with or oversaw this hull conversion at Braunston.

 

One of the sons certainly worked at Blue Line for a while - I can no longer recall which, but if forced to guess, I would say John, I think - this was when he owned "Nutfield", which he was sometimes living on alongside the former Blue Line crews living on "Belmont", "Lucy" and "Raymond", before it later became the Wyvern trip boat.

 

This may well be the explanation then - the work was done in order to create Wyvern hire boats, but actually carried out at Blue Line.

 

They never seem consistent about the length they were cut to either. Usually I have heard 54 feet, but a brochure from about 1970 says 55 feet, and I have seen other lengths as well.

One of the son's commented that it was he who'd shortened and knocked the elm bottoms out.

 

I suppose you could argue that "Elm" had Elm bottoms, "Fir" had Fir bottoms, "Beech" had Beech bottoms.......

 

.................. Coat !

[Black Ibis]

 

A shame neither son now seems equally prepared to make available detail from their archives of some of the very historic boats they used to operate. Certainly James doesn't seem that interested, and insisted to me that the two "Niddle Northwich" boats had both been "Small Woolwich" boats......

 

Yes, the Alan H Faulkner booklet wrongly describes these boats as "all steel". Not only were they composite, with wood bottoms, my understanding is that they were iron composite, despite the fact that welded iron construction would have been highly unusual for a 1930s built narrow boat.

 

Describing them as steel, is I believe also wrong.

 

I'm sure I have seen somewhere a claim that they were shortened at Braunston originally, but that would seem to be wrong then.

 

In Wyvern use one of them, (Bridget I think), retained part of her original engine room, as accommodation, with the wood cabin then extending it forward, wheres (I think) Olive had an all wood purpose built cabin.

 

Yup, WILLOW and the other seven were definitely welded wrought iron with wooden bottoms. WILLOW was rebottomed with a steel in 1979, (it was then re-rebottomed and indeed refooted in 2010, and Pete at Langley Mill did a brilliant job of welding steel to the original iron according to the survey we had)

Edited April 24, 2015 by Black Ibis

[zenataomm]

Yup, at the time Fir did have some of the original metal cabin, which would have been the living cabin as they were built with the engine 'ole at the back end.

[alan_fincher]

Yup, at the time Fir did have some of the original metal cabin, which would have been the living cabin as they were built with the engine 'ole at the back end.

 

I'm not convinced. The original cabin that remained was set fairly well back, with a surprisingly small amount cut away to create the cruiser stern that the SR2 was under, I think.

 

I think at least some of what remained, (possibly all), would have been engine room originally, as I doubt the original living accommodation extended that far back in the original boat.

 

But what I don't know is how long the original engine rooms are/were ? I assume the Petters were not physically very large? Does anybody know, please ?

 

EDIT:

 

Looking at pictures from James and Amy's blog of Oak, then if the big chimney further forward is fora cabin stove, there is no doubt that much of what was retained on "Bridget" was the accommodation space, not the engine room.

 

And, good grief, what a state they have let it fall into - not James and Amy, that is!

 

 

Edited April 24, 2015 by alan_fincher

[FadeToScarlet]

I'm not convinced. The original cabin that remained was set fairly well back, with a surprisingly small amount cut away to create the cruiser stern that the SR2 was under, I think.

 

I think at least some of what remained, (possibly all), would have been engine room originally, as I doubt the original living accommodation extended that far back in the original boat.

 

But what I don't know is how long the original engine rooms are/were ? I assume the Petters were not physically very large? Does anybody know, please ?

 

EDIT:

 

Looking at pictures from James and Amy's blog of Oak, then if the big chimney further forward is fora cabin stove, there is no doubt that much of what was retained on "Bridget" was the accommodation space, not the engine room.

 

 

The engine rooms were very short- which is going to make the task of re engining Willow difficult! They were only about 4'6" or 5' long, and were very cramped despite the physically small 10 horse engine, because they had floor plates nearly level with the uxter plate.

 

I have many detailed photos of the plans, but the Gloucester Archive copyright rules prevent me from sharing them here or online.

 

Edit- just run a tape measure around the back cabin and engine room (currently resembling a shed).

 

The whole cabin was a smudge over 12' long- that's engine room and back cabin together- and the engine room itself, measured to the remains of the original bulkhead which has mostly been cut away, is 5'.

 

Quite cramped, especially as, according to the health inspections, they were- unlike our earlier belief- used as family-crewed boats until the Second World War.

Edited April 24, 2015 by FadeToScarlet

[John Williamson 1955]

At least N.B. Ash is in commercial use and looks to be in reasonable condition. I saw it today at Bulls Bridge loaded with coal, gas and maybe diesel ready for the next supply run for the London Boaters. It's just a shame I saw it there just after I had set off to go for some Calor gas from a local marina.... Hey ho. It was a nice day to be on the water anyway.

 

It sounded really nice last time it passed me, too.

[alan_fincher]

At least N.B. Ash is in commercial use and looks to be in reasonable condition. I saw it today at Bulls Bridge loaded with coal, gas and maybe diesel ready for the next supply run for the London Boaters. It's just a shame I saw it there just after I had set off to go for some Calor gas from a local marina.... Hey ho. It was a nice day to be on the water anyway.

 

It sounded really nice last time it passed me, too.

 

Although that "Ash" was not "Ash" originally, as the real "Ash" is a different boat - it's origins are from sister boat "Alder".

 

In 2009 Pete Harrison explained the history in this post.

[X Alan W]

Wyvern Shipping Company Ltd.'s own records state that both of their 'Severners' were shortened by Blue Line Cruisers Ltd., Braunston. Perhaps one of the sons assisted with or oversaw this hull conversion at Braunston.

I Don't know who carried out the work, but the boats were certainly in Blue Lines dock for some if not all of the shortening work to be carried out

[FadeToScarlet]

Although that "Ash" was not "Ash" originally, as the real "Ash" is a different boat - it's origins are from sister boat "Alder".

 

In 2009 Pete Harrison explained the history in this post.

Yes, the original ASH has now gone back to the a Carter family, who converted it and lived on it in the 50s, and the process of restoring has begun-

 

 

The foreend of ALDER with a modern stern and some modern hull sides, renamed ASH 2, is the fuel boat in London, and the original stern end of ALDER is ASH 1 which is AFAIK on the K&A.

 

ALDER was renamed ASH By D&IWE in the late 40s as they already had an Alder, the Josher motor, and it was later split into two to form a push tug and the foreend was given a stern and made into a 60' leisure boat, before being de converted a couple of years ago and now working.

[Timleech]

 

ALDER was renamed ASH By D&IWE in the late 40s as they already had an Alder, the Josher motor, and it was later split into two to form a push tug and the foreend was given a stern and made into a 60' leisure boat, before being de converted a couple of years ago and now working.

 

So what is the ex- Fellows, Morton 'Alder', about 60', which has a modern counter and steel conversion (by Ian Kemp)?

 

Tim

[Laurence Hogg]

In 1991 one of the worst examples of unjoined up thinking and co operation between inland water bodies occurred which not only provided a would be opportunity for rescue of historic craft but a serious archaeological oppururtunity. This was the re development of Boothstown (or Booths Hall) basin which contained a serious amount of wide beam L&L craft but also a fleet of box boats. A friend franticly phoned me to say where he normally fished had turned into a sight not to be missed. Needless to say The Waterways Museum was alerted and Ellesmere Port but nothing was really done and the contractor was keen to get on with the job. We got there on a Saturday and took loads of pictures some of which are shown here, I think a Manchester University also recorded some of the craft at the same time, I think a "Box" was rescued but little else.

Within a few dats the larger craft were bulldozed and broken up, the basin edges tidied and the fleet of box boat were effectively left buried.

 

A very sad end and lost opportunity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments on the boats shown will be much appreciated.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Laurence Hogg

[furnessvale]

In 1991 one of the worst examples of unjoined up thinking and co operation between inland water bodies occurred which not only provided a would be opportunity for rescue of historic craft but a serious archaeological oppururtunity. This was the re development of Boothstown (or Booths Hall) basin which contained a serious amount of wide beam L&L craft but also a fleet of box boats. A friend franticly phoned me to say where he normally fished had turned into a sight not to be missed. Needless to say The Waterways Museum was alerted and Ellesmere Port but nothing was really done and the contractor was keen to get on with the job. We got there on a Saturday and took loads of pictures some of which are shown here, I think a Manchester University also recorded some of the craft at the same time, I think a "Box" was rescued but little else.

Within a few dats the larger craft were bulldozed and broken up, the basin edges tidied and the fleet of box boat were effectively left buried.

 

A very sad end and lost opportunity.

 

A sad sight but given the current condition of wooden boats within the museum system, does anyone think the addition of all, or even some, of these boats would have helped things?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[pete harrison]

The foreend of ALDER with a modern stern and some modern hull sides, renamed ASH 2, is the fuel boat in London, and the original stern end of ALDER is ASH 1 which is AFAIK on the K&A.

 

ALDER was renamed ASH By D&IWE in the late 40s as they already had an Alder, the Josher motor, and it was later split into two to form a push tug and the foreend was given a stern and made into a 60' leisure boat, before being de converted a couple of years ago and now working.

ALDER was inspected at Gloucester on 15 November 1949 under its original name. The first dated evidence I have of its renaming to ASH was 11 August 1950 when its health registration at Gloucester was amended.

 

The stern end of ALDER is no longer on the Kennet and Avon Canal, and in any case this is the stern of the F.M.C. Ltd. motor boat ALDER and has nothing to do with the Severn and Canal Carrying Company Ltd.. This stern end, complete with a B.C.N. day boat fore end, is now at Over Basin, Gloucester.

[FadeToScarlet]

ALDER was inspected at Gloucester on 15 November 1949 under its original name. The first dated evidence I have of its renaming to ASH was 11 August 1950 when its health registration at Gloucester was amended.

 

The stern end of ALDER is no longer on the Kennet and Avon Canal, and in any case this is the stern of the F.M.C. Ltd. motor boat ALDER and has nothing to do with the Severn and Canal Carrying Company Ltd.. This stern end, complete with a B.C.N. day boat fore end, is now at Over Basin, Gloucester.

Thanks Pete, I shall amend my records accordingly.

[Timleech]

 

ALDER was renamed ASH By D&IWE in the late 40s as they already had an Alder, the Josher motor, and it was later split into two to form a push tug and the foreend was given a stern and made into a 60' leisure boat, before being de converted a couple of years ago and now working.

 

 

 

So what is the ex- Fellows, Morton 'Alder', about 60', which has a modern counter and steel conversion (by Ian Kemp)?

 

Tim

 

I now realise that I have (probably) misread your post as saying that 'it' was the Joshers motor rather than the Severner.

 

Tim

[pete harrison]

 

So what is the ex- Fellows, Morton 'Alder', about 60', which has a modern counter and steel conversion (by Ian Kemp)?

 

Tim

This ALDER is the fore end of the F.M.C. Ltd. motor boat with a new counter stern and cabin conversion. This was formally used as the painters boat based at Northwich. The F.M.C. Ltd. motor boat ALDER operated in the northern carrying fleet and kept its name following the integration of the 'Severners' in 1950, but was the cause of the 'Severner' ALDER requiring a name change to ASH to avoid confusion.

 

On becoming redundant the F.M.C. Ltd. motor boat ALDER was also cut into two parts by 'British Waterways', with the stern end becoming the push tug ALDER I and the fore end as already mentioned becoming the painters boat ALDER II. The stern end push tug ALDER I was subsequently fitted with an iron B.C.N. day boat as a fore end and was latterly operated by British Waterways Board as a maintenance boat on the Kennet and Avon Canal. It is now based at Over Basin, Gloucester.

 

Confusing innit

[Laurence Hogg]

A sad sight but given the current condition of wooden boats within the museum system, does anyone think the addition of all, or even some, of these boats would have helped things?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

There were private individuals who were interested in some but hadn't a chance of rescuing anything due to the attitude and timescale. I cannot agree more that sending them th Ellesmere Port wopuld have ensured their demise but private buyers tend on the whole not to be so orientated as the museums. It was a tragedy.

[Derek R.]

But what wonderful images. Thanks for posting.

[Pluto]

In 1991 one of the worst examples of unjoined up thinking and co operation between inland water bodies occurred which not only provided a would be opportunity for rescue of historic craft but a serious archaeological oppururtunity. This was the re development of Boothstown (or Booths Hall) basin which contained a serious amount of wide beam L&L craft but also a fleet of box boats. A friend franticly phoned me to say where he normally fished had turned into a sight not to be missed. Needless to say The Waterways Museum was alerted and Ellesmere Port but nothing was really done and the contractor was keen to get on with the job. We got there on a Saturday and took loads of pictures some of which are shown here, I think a Manchester University also recorded some of the craft at the same time, I think a "Box" was rescued but little else.

Within a few dats the larger craft were bulldozed and broken up, the basin edges tidied and the fleet of box boat were effectively left buried.

 

A very sad end and lost opportunity

 

Comments on the boats shown will be much appreciated.

I was involved with the recording done by Greater Manchester Archaeological Unit, and outline details of 24 boats were established and a report published. The Boat Museum managed to save the stern of Lily, which I think is now on display. As with most such recording projects, the site owners were pressurising for work to continue after the short interruption for recording. Legally, it is very difficult to get extended access to such sites. It has to be shown that the remains have major significance. That wooden wide canal boats suffered from a lack of interest from canal enthusiasts in the twentieth century, with the notable exception of one or two who post on this forum, would not have helped. Even now, there seems to be little increase in the number of those who take an active interest.

 

Having owned a wooden short boat, I would suggest that none of the remains were suitable for conservation as complete boats. Although the planking looks reasonable in some photos, the frames were mostly badly rotted, making any restoration extremely expensive. The best that could be done was to save one or two sections. Taking the lines of just one boat would have been an extremely lengthy process, given the working conditions. It was certainly a sad event, but those of us who know about wide wooden canal boats are used to the deterioration of boat remains, and the lack of interest in them.

[Athy]

Not a comment, but a question: what is a "box boat", please? An early form of container carrier would be my guess.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Athy

[Rob-M]

Not a comment, but a question: what is a "box boat", please? An early form of container carrier would be my guess.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/national-waterways-museum/the-museum-collections/historic-boat-collections/box-boat-337describes Box Boat 337.