Anyone just received CRT letter 'reminding' CC'ers to move?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

Part of the problem in discussing this is that people use loaded terminology (fortunate/less fortunate)

 

There is an assumption that those who lack the resources to fund all that they want are simply unfortunate, whilst those who have the resources to fund more than others have are fortunate.

A bigger part of the problem in discussing this is that 1 in 5 of the UK population live below our official poverty line, meaning that they experience life as a daily struggle.

 

... and many either don't realise that or don't accept it passing it off as lacking 'the resources to fund all they want'.

 

 

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Some might think that they wanted the Associations to come with a minimum distance so they could stand up in court and say "the boating Associations are all agreed that boater without a home mooring should move around least *** miles a month"

Thanks for that will do that when on my laptop

Hope they do not let MtP know when they receive one or they will be accused of non compliance

 

Absolutely!

 

I also think it says much about Richard Parry that he committed the Trust to come up with a minimum distance such that boaters would know what was expected of them but has failed to do so.

 

 

[mayalld]

A bigger part of the problem in discussing this is that 1 in 5 of the UK population live below our official poverty line, meaning that they experience life as a daily struggle.

 

... and many either don't realise that or don't accept it passing it off as lacking 'the resources to fund all they want'.

 

 

 

 

 

It all depends how you define poverty though.

 

Given that the official poverty line in the UK says that anybody who has less than £100 per week after housing and water is in poverty, the 20% of population figure is based on a rather comfortable level of poverty!

[cotswoldsman]

 

Absolutely!

 

I also think it says much about Richard Parry that he committed the Trust to come up with a minimum distance such that boaters would know what was expected of them but has failed to do so.

 

 

I think it was also at one of those meetings where he said that he was going to stop the introduction of new 48 hour moorings and after that hardly a week went bye without new ones being introduced including the one he was personally involved in following a few pints at the Three Locks

[Bettie Boo]

 

A Summons is deemed served when it is posted in the Royal Mail. It does not need to be sent by any other method than the normal post. It does not need to be sent Recorded or Signed For. Therefore any Notice can take the same Precedent.

 

 

 

 

My understanding too. Proof of posting is accepted by a court as proof of service.

 

Paradoxically sending by recorded delivery ('signed for') might be great for proving the notice was delivered, but if the recipient is expecting such a notice they are likely to refuse to sign for it, or claim the sig is not theirs in which the sender is worse off than if they'd sent by normal post.

 

 

MtB

 

Fair enough, for both of the above comments.

 

But my original point still stands; for those of us how have internet access and prefer to receive communications from our banks, phone providers and most importantly CRT that option should be open to us. Not only is it more cost effective for the providers of said services, but we would definitely receive our communications in a much more timely fashion.

 

It would be quite simple to set up really. Whether it be a bog standard form letter or a notice / information specific to one boater, our address would need to be looked up on the system once the document was composed. At that stage it would identify if our preference of communication was via a mailing address using snail mail or via email. If email, type in the address and hit send. If snail mail, find an envelope apply proper postage, put into the outgoing mail and hope Royal Mail manage their end of the bargain.

 

Maybe I'm simplifying it too much, but I really don't understand why / what the hold up is on CRT communicating to us via email. They have no problems letting us know about stoppages via the internet, albeit that is a mass notification and here we are discussing individual correspondence.

[cotswoldsman]

 

It all depends how you define poverty though.

 

Given that the official poverty line in the UK says that anybody who has less than £100 per week after housing and water is in poverty, the 20% of population figure is based on a rather comfortable level of poverty!

Glad you think £100 pW is comfortable to pay elec/gas, food, school costs, council tax etc I guess you think they might even have enough left to take up their ISA allowance

[bassplayer]

A bigger part of the problem in discussing this is that 1 in 5 of the UK population live below our official poverty line, meaning that they experience life as a daily struggle.

 

... and many either don't realise that or don't accept it passing it off as lacking 'the resources to fund all they want'.

 

I blame the digital world myself, I hate spreadsheets and check boxes (and I was a software engineer!).

 

"By checking this box you agree to everything we say"...well I agree with some of it, but....."Yes or No?....Common sense is not an option"...help!

[Rich]

 

It all depends how you define poverty though.

 

Given that the official poverty line in the UK says that anybody who has less than £100 per week after housing and water is in poverty, the 20% of population figure is based on a rather comfortable level of poverty!

Damned plebs, always complaining.

[Sabcat]

Glad you think £100 pW is comfortable to pay elec/gas, food, school costs, council tax etc I guess you think they might even have enough left to take up their ISA allowance

 

It's after council tax as well.

 

 

It all depends how you define poverty though.

 

Given that the official poverty line in the UK says that anybody who has less than £100 per week after housing and water is in poverty, the 20% of population figure is based on a rather comfortable level of poverty!

 

These people are living the dream eh? ***some words removed by moderator***

Edited March 4, 2015 by DeanS
against forum guidelines

[cotswoldsman]

Damned plebs, always complaining.

Hehe

[Rich]

Quote from MtB, "My understanding too. Proof of posting is accepted by a court as proof of service"

 

and one of these days someone is going to discover the truth in that proof of posting does not equate with proof of receipt.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Rich

[KevMc]

Quote from MtB, "My understanding too. Proof of posting is accepted by a court as proof of service"

 

and one of these days someone is going to discover the truth in that proof of posting does not equate with proof of receipt.

 

I'm going to ask .... what "proof" of posting is there available that doesn't also provide proof / record of delivery? I thought that was why you got proof of posting

[MtB]

 

I'm going to ask .... what "proof" of posting is there available that doesn't also provide proof / record of delivery? I thought that was why you got proof of posting

 

 

A document called a "Certificate of Posting". You post the letter by handing it in over the counter at a Post Office and you ask for a Certificate of Posting. There is no associated proof of delivery but a court accepts the Certificate of Posting as proof of service.

 

 

 

 

MtB

[mrsmelly]

Life can be very simple for some.

 

The problem is, jobs used to be a plenty, there was no such thing as zero hours, further education used to be free, there were council houses for those that were in need or on low income. This has all gone of course, but some still live in a bygone era, imagining it's still as simple as when they were younger.

It's easy to sit back and pontificate when your peering through old glasses.

 

Well I dont live in the past maybe you do? I have 5 children and 9 grandchildren so can absolutely assure you I am very up to date with " The real world" on a daily basis. The facts are that CART and the inland waterways system are NOT social housing. If I couldnt afford my boating lifestyle and was skint for whatever reason I would find out alternative land based help from the correct source not from anyone to do with boating, CART or otherwise. Yes things are not so easy as they were I will agree but thats life. I maintain my chosen lifestyle by still working full time as does my 62 year old wife I started work full time in 1971 and she started in 1969 and we have moved around a hell of a lot for our work over the years not stayed put, a boat of course does allow any boat owner to move to the work luckily and even better allows them to get out of that ----hole London.

 

Tim

 

Tim

[Jerra]

But my original point still stands; for those of us how have internet access and prefer to receive communications from our banks, phone providers and most importantly CRT that option should be open to us. Not only is it more cost effective for the providers of said services, but we would definitely receive our communications in a much more timely fashion.

I would basically agree however coming back to the point about snail mail any document which might eventually result in legal action can't IMO be delivered by email. Yes I know about methods of alerting the sender when the email has been read etc. Some emails still go missing and people might choose to just delete an email from CRT rather than open it if they knew trouble was brewing.

 

So I think documents which aren't "mission critical" could be emailed I still think CRT will rely on snail mail. Particularly when they can't guarantee the boater has reception to receive the email let alone the desire to read/admit it has been delivered.

[Maffi]

It will be fascinating to see how this unfolds.

 

I am not sympathetic to those who exploit the system and barely move.

 

On the other hand, as we all know, the 1995 Act does not specify distance. If a boater only moves 30 metres every 14 days, my opinion is that they are exploiting the system. However, I recognise that they are moving in accordance with their legal obligations.

 

I have read arguments that, if CRT make distance a requirement of the license , then that should be enough. However, if those requirements are not backed by law, those conditions become much harder to enforce and much easier to challenge. The conditions are illegal. Can any organisation therefore issue a contract which is in contravention of British Law? Is that a precedent that would benefit UK citizens in the long term - even if we might be in favour of this particular example?

 

Perhaps the 1995 Act would have been different had the waterways been as busy then as they are now.

 

My feeling - like it or not - is that we're in a period of transition. The new guidance/policy on movement , whilst not backed by law, is going to have an effect. In any hierarchy , it's much easier to push down than up. If I had to make a prediction, however, it would be that, as long as the law remains as it is, this initiative will soon be challenged in court and be ruled unfair and illegal. If it were to succeed, the wider implications would be too problematic for society.

 

 

Joel Mobile phone companies, internet companies etc all have illegal contracts.

 

Surely the whole point of the CCer ticket is so you don't pay for that which you don't use ie if you are cruising around the country all the time and never going back to your home mooring. If you need to be in one place then you need a mooring.

 

But surely the distance thing is down to people being pedantic. There is a clue here, Continuous >Cruiser< It doesn't take much to work it out. Cruising is NOT bowhauling your boat 30 feet up the cut. Cruising involves distance if you need to ask how any boat lengths you need to move then that's a measure and you are not a CCer rather a Continuous Avoider of the checkerman.

 

 

I would basically agree however coming back to the point about snail mail any document which might eventually result in legal action can't IMO be delivered by email. Yes I know about methods of alerting the sender when the email has been read etc. Some emails still go missing and people might choose to just delete an email from CRT rather than open it if they knew trouble was brewing.

 

So I think documents which aren't "mission critical" could be emailed I still think CRT will rely on snail mail. Particularly when they can't guarantee the boater has reception to receive the email let alone the desire to read/admit it has been delivered.

 

 

Jerra Ignoring an email from CRT wont make it go away.

[Graham Davis]

 

 

My understanding too. Proof of posting is accepted by a court as proof of service.

 

Paradoxically sending by recorded delivery ('signed for') might be great for proving the notice was delivered, but if the recipient is expecting such a notice they are likely to refuse to sign for it, or claim the sig is not theirs in which the sender is worse off than if they'd sent by normal post.

 

 

MtB

 

Exactly Mike, which is also why, when we issued Summons, they were sent in plain envelopes, and not with any identification or franking marks.

Sneaky Government Depts!!

[DeanS]

Someone moves off land to CC on a boat. They have no postal address.

Where does CRT send the letters?

 

 

 

and perhaps if a boat "hasn't moved far enough", CRT should then just knock on the boat and hand it over?

Edited March 3, 2015 by DeanS

[Bettie Boo]

I would basically agree however coming back to the point about snail mail any document which might eventually result in legal action can't IMO be delivered by email. Yes I know about methods of alerting the sender when the email has been read etc. Some emails still go missing and people might choose to just delete an email from CRT rather than open it if they knew trouble was brewing.

 

So I think documents which aren't "mission critical" could be emailed I still think CRT will rely on snail mail. Particularly when they can't guarantee the boater has reception to receive the email let alone the desire to read/admit it has been delivered.

 

I'm really not trying to be difficult with this, but those same people could just as easily say they never received what was posted to them via snail mail. At least the sender would have their "sent" folder as proof that an email was sent to the recipient, as well as some document/communication from the boater stating that email was their preferred method of communication. Which in itself, would be easier than a trip to the post office to ask for a receipt.

 

I do agree that if it was something along the lines of a section 8 it should be sent recorded delivery or such, but as a general reminder notice to all ccer's email for those with access is a much more cost effective and timely method to use.

 

Is it just me or do other ccer's not find it a complete pain in the nether regions to have communications (other than general information available on their web site) from CRT only available via snail mail?

[Tony Dunkley]

If C&RT's EO's delivered all these letters to the boat/boatowner in question by hand they would not only have proof of delivery/receipt, but it would serve as an opportunity to talk about the perceived problem face to face, and/or a chance to confirm whether or not the boat is complying with the lawful requirements for a CC'er

[Bettie Boo]

Someone moves off land to CC on a boat. They have no postal address.

Where does CRT send the letters?

 

 

 

and perhaps if a boat "hasn't moved far enough", CRT should then just knock on the boat and hand it over?

Exactly my point - I don't have a mailing address

 

I have a friend in Birmingham who's address I use. But it's not to actually receive mail (other than CRT), but to give those institutions who insist they need an address...bank, doctor, phone provider. Although all of them are set up as paperless with the exception of CRT

[Tony Dunkley]

Someone moves off land to CC on a boat. They have no postal address.

Where does CRT send the letters?

 

 

 

and perhaps if a boat "hasn't moved far enough", CRT should then just knock on the boat and hand it over?

 

Yes, why not ?

[Graham Davis]

 

I'm going to ask .... what "proof" of posting is there available that doesn't also provide proof / record of delivery? I thought that was why you got proof of posting

 

We commonly used to be asked "How was the Summons served on the accused?" to which the reply was "By posting at (certain) Post Office at 0000 o'clock on (date)". That was all the Law required.

As the Court Presenting Officer I used to post the Summons myself and take the case at the Magistrate Court. If someone else posted them they could be called as a witness to confirm that, or sign an affidavit to that effect.

[johnmck]

Joel Mobile phone companies, internet companies etc all have illegal contracts.

 

Surely the whole point of the CCer ticket is so you don't pay for that which you don't use ie if you are cruising around the country all the time and never going back to your home mooring. If you need to be in one place then you need a mooring.

But surely the distance thing is down to people being pedantic. There is a clue here, Continuous >Cruiser< It doesn't take much to work it out. Cruising is NOT bowhauling your boat 30 feet up the cut. Cruising involves distance if you need to ask how any boat lengths you need to move then that's a measure and you are not a CCer rather a Continuous Avoider of the checkerman.

 

 

 

Jerra Ignoring an email from CRT wont make it go away.

 

And that is, in a nutshell, it. Well said Maffi.

[MtB]

 

I'm really not trying to be difficult with this, but those same people could just as easily say they never received what was posted tothem via snail mail.

 

 

You're really not getting this are you Bettie?!

 

They can say what they like about not receiving the letter, a court will ignore them and deem it to have been served regardless provided a Certificate of Posting exists. That's just the way our legal system works.

 

Argue about how it ought to be by all means, but for now, letters with Certificates of Posting are deemed by the courts to have been received. Emails are not.

Exactly my point - I don't have a mailing address

 

I have a friend in Birmingham who's address I use. But it's not to actually receive mail (other than CRT), but to give those institutions who insist they need an address...bank, doctor, phone provider. Although all of them are set up as paperless with the exception of CRT

 

 

You have to provide a mailing address to get a license. This is the address CRT will use to communicate with you.

 

Claiming you didn't receive mail sent to your nominated address cuts no ice with the courts here in the UK.

 

 

MtB