Petition on 38 degrees

[Delta9]

 

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Edited February 22, 2015 by Delta9

[jenlyn]

Why do you have to be so offensive to people who have a different view to you?

I'm forthright. It's not offensive in my eyes, just direct.

My theory is he takes questioning or analysis of his views as a personal insult, rather than an attempt to debate the point under discussion.

 

I've given up trying to conduct rational debate with him. He's simply incapable.

The reason you struggle to debate any issue, comes from your neglect to grasp and fathom out what you read, if you read some of it at all.

The issue you have with me is not about debate, it's personal, as you well know. ;-)

[bassplayer]

Why do you have to be so offensive to people who have a different view to you?

I thought that of Jenlyn when I first came on here but then realised the big picture is more important. There are pretty forthright comments from those with opposing views too, maybe it all helps keep a balance....

[junior]

Has anyone here genuinely had problems getting to and around London?

Define 'Problem' and 'London'. I'll reply properly on my break later as I'm at work at the moment, but if you'd define those 2 things I'll tailor my reply accordingly.

[Athy]

Define 'Problem' and 'London'. I'll reply properly on my break later as I'm at work at the moment, but if you'd define those 2 things I'll tailor my reply accordingly.

How many shadowy figures scuttled past you and jumped into the back of lorries while you were typing that?

[bassplayer]

How many shadowy figures scuttled past you and jumped into the back of lorries while you were typing that?

Oh yeah, I forgot about the extra security of living in a flat compared with a small metal box in the water.

Define 'Problem' and 'London'. I'll reply properly on my break later as I'm at work at the moment, but if you'd define those 2 things I'll tailor my reply accordingly.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=74066&page=8#entry1515188

[Athy]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the extra security of living in a flat compared with a small metal box in the water.

To work that reply out, I need more time.

Perhaps your are unaware of what Jr. does for a living.

[bassplayer]

To work that reply out, I need more time.

Perhaps your are unaware of what Jr. does for a living.

Funeral director?

[jenlyn]

Perhaps your are unaware of what Jr. does for a living.

At least he's stopped chasing teapots.

[Texasboater]

How many shadowy figures scuttled past you and jumped into the back of lorries while you were typing that?

 

 

Can't possibly say can he? He wasn't watching!

[bassplayer]

To work that reply out, I need more time.

Perhaps your are unaware of what Jr. does for a living.

Ok, I give up, what do you do for a living Junior?

[blackrose]

 

Just looking at this as an outside observer, it seems that you and others are missing one big point, and that is the fact that boat numbers aren't static, they are constantly increasing. While there may be room now for all the CMers, how much room will there be when their number doubles, and when that number doubles again? The canals are a finite resource. There is only so much space available and that space will be filled with CMers if nothing is done to prevent it. If there was never going to be another boat wanting to CM in London, then CRT could be more lax with enforcement. However, the fact of the matter is that the number of boats is increasing exponentially and CRT, as a matter of necessity, has to think of the future and how to keep numbers manageable and keep the canals from becoming one big parking lot.

 

Are there flats or apartments available in London that are comparable in size to narrowboats - 200 - 300 sq.ft.? If people are willing to live and raise a family in the small space offered by a boat, perhaps a partial solution to the housing problem would be to offer apartments of similar size.

 

What's happening on the canals is just a symptom of the greater woes facing society. The biggest problem is income inequality. Wages have not kept up with inflation for many years. Meanwhile, governments have stacked the deck in favor of the wealthy and against the working man and woman.This isn't the place to discuss all the woes of society, but it bears mention that there simply isn't enough space on your canals for them to serve as the housing safety valve for all of those woes.

How come most people can accept what you say about overcrowding when it comes to the waterways, yet for many it's a taboo subject when it comes to a broader discussion about overcrowding in our cities?

 

It's not just a question of increasing resources to cope because unfortunately the one resource that will always be finite is space. Having lived in Tokyo for 10 years which is about the same size as London but with double the population density (including Yokohama and Chiba)，I can see where this is going. Your idea about boat sized apartments will soon be the reality for many people.

Edited February 22, 2015 by blackrose

[Athy]

Can't possibly say can he? He wasn't watching!

A greeno for that, pardner!

[NigelMoore]

 

the fact of the matter is that the number of boats is increasing exponentially . . .

 

Figures to 2012 as to numbers of boats licensed with BW/CaRT –

 

2007 35,054

2008 38,814

2009 37,394

2010 38,281

2011 38,145

2012 33,112

 

I have an idea the last figure has remained fairly static since then, but Allan Richards can probably confirm specifics.

[Maffi]

Which would be a good reason to put pressure on the government stating such a fact.

Both from CRT and boat owners.

I would tend to think that those in power would spin it so the canals DO become a housing estate.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Maffi

[bassplayer]

Figures to 2012 as to numbers of boats licensed with BW/CaRT –

 

2007 35,054

2008 38,814

2009 37,394

2010 38,281

2011 38,145

2012 33,112

 

I have an idea the last figure has remained fairly static since then, but Allan Richards can probably confirm specifics.

I've forgotten what the problem is now.

 

The figures raise some interesting questions. What happened to the 5000 boats in 2012? What are the figures for boats on other waters (EA, council run etc)? What was the problem again?

[tree monkey]

At least he's stopped chasing teapots.

[dccruiser]

Your view point makes sense with regard to the subject of boating....but....I think the real issues like needing cheaper housing to stay in an area where you work is more important than boats not moving often enough. I know it isn't just CRT's problem, the Chambers of Commerce have recognised affordable housing as the biggest issue in London. Is anything being done about it? Maybe the frustration should be taken out on the government for not providing affordable homes rather than bash CM'ers, they are just trying to get on like the rest of us. I know you don't, but I do think some people have a picture in their head that everyone who doesn't have to pay for a mooring is a piss taker.

I am sorry i do not accept linking the government not being able to provide everyone who wants to live in central London with affordable housing and those people who can afford to buy a boat then say they cant afford a mooring, so therefore should be exempt from paying for one.

I personally have just been trying to get on and it has took me over 30 years, but i pay my way ....as you say not everyone who doesn't pay a mooring is a piss taker ... there are many genuine CCers.

 

Another point while i am at it, for some reason people only talk about London when talking about CMers where my views regarding CMers refer to anyone on the system, It isnt about how much room these boats take up, it is about people not paying for the waterways they are living on.

 

Rick

Edited February 22, 2015 by dccruiser

[Wanderer Vagabond]

How come most people can accept what you say about overcrowding when it comes to the waterways, yet for many it's a taboo subject when it comes to a broader discussion about overcrowding in our cities?

 

It's not just a question of increasing resources to cope because unfortunately the one resource that will always be finite is space. Having lived in Tokyo for 10 years which is about the same size as London but with double the population density (including Yokohama and Chiba)，I can see where this is going. Your idea about boat sized apartments will soon be the reality for many people.

I think that the reason that people don't discuss overcrowding in cities is because, at the moment, that is not the problem. The example you give of Tokyo with about the same size as London but double the population emphasises the point, they haven't all died or gone mad, they just live in higher density. I've been to Hong Kong where the population density is even higher than Tokyo and the situation is the same. The problem with London is the lack of affordable housing. There are plenty of properties and an unnecessarily large percentage are empty because they have been bought up by Russian,Middle Eastern and other foreign nationals as a place to lodge huge quantities of money of dubious provenance. The government are happy with this situation since they get a kick-back in stamp duty whenever one of these obscenities is bought or sold.

 

The related problem with the canal system is that because they cannot find land based accomodation people are trying to move onto the water which is a limited resource. As has been repeatedly discussed before there is nothing that CRT can do to prevent people buying up a boat and moving it to London if they wish so ultimately the numbers will just keep on increasing. The end result will be a water-borne shanty town or favela (and before being accused of over dramatising consider that such things don't drop from the sky, they develop over time, and currently there is nothing CRT can do to stop it developing). As water overcrowding increases over time some will move off because the conditions have deteriorated and be replaced by others who are more willing to suffer the privations of such life.I'm sure at one time someone said "What is the problem with letting a friend or two live in my garden shed?" this has now developed into a considerable unregulated market of beds in sheds noticeably in certain Western Boroughs of London.

 

I don't know how CRT are going to stop this from happening, I just hope that they can.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Wanderer Vagabond

[gaggle]

It depends which way you look at it , rules are simple, follow them no hassle, choose to flaunt them then accept the possible consequences.

 

As for myself, i am lucky as i am alive unlike a number of guys i served with in the forces, unlucky because i came away disabled, me being glass half full go with lucky....as for anything i have in life i have worked day and night to get it, i have in the past lost everything and had to start again with nothing, just because i am comfortable now doesnt mean i cannot say what i think of anyone who chooses a situation then moans about it when they come unstuck.

 

Rick

I draw the very clear line that exsists between anyone that is a CMer and those that genuinly CC .... and if you really dont understand that line you havent read my posts

 

Rick

So what has your time in the forces spent maybe killing people and getting disabled got to do with canals or licence, mooring , you have I an sure brought this I was serving up before ,so what , you keep mentioning this ,yeh had a drink

[dccruiser]

So what has your time in the forces spent maybe killing people and getting disabled got to do with canals or licence, mooring , you have I an sure brought this I was serving up before ,so what , you keep mentioning this ,yeh had a drink

If you had quoted and taken the time to have read the complete exchange of posts rather than following those with no argument and just picking out bits you would see the context it was in and, it would all make perfect sense to you

 

 

Rick

[Alf Roberts]

I would have to say that the highlighted really makes me sick. This bunch of 'johnny come lately's' seem to have some mistaken belief that they have been the 'saviour' of the canals. Perhaps they should be asked where they were when the likes of Tom Rolt, Robert Aickman, Charles Hadfield and Frank Eyre (amongst other 'middle class types) were REALLY saving the canal system? I don't suppose they were even a glint in their parent's eyes. If they think that they are going to impress anyone by trying to rewrite history with themselves as the 'knights in shining armour' then, quite honestly, they deserve all the abuse that they get!

remind me; how long did Tom Rolt spend moored in one spot at the top of Tardibigge?

[Alf Roberts]

 

These people have made a legitimate choice, which is entirely within the terms of the CC licence, and within the law. The law courts have repeatedly ruled in the favour of boaters in this respect. It is not a loophole, it is just one end of a scale.

 

Of course CRT can act against people who stay in one place longer than 14 days (this being the type of boater I would call a CMer), of course clarification of place etc is helpful, but if someone wants to continuously cruise one ring, or one straight section of canal, then that should absolutely be up to them. AND if that person wants to hold down a job and put their kids in school then as long as they keep moving every 14 days, and follow a pattern of A - B - C, then more power to them.

 

Boats are for moving, and being a boater (for me) is about being out in different places. The law, and to date the T&Cs of the CC licence, allow me to have a boat out on the canal and move it from place to place and wake up with new wonderful surroundings each day (or each 14, though I almost always move more regularly than that). Whether I choose to travel the whole system, or hang out in one area is (and should be) irrelevant. To say that because someone stays in one area they therefore must take a mooring is ridiculous. Of course they can take a mooring, and then they will not be subject to the 14 day rules, but nowhere in any regulation does it state (nor even imply) that one cannot reside constantly in, shall we say east London, with a CC licence.

 

Edited because I don't type well when I get angry.

he's a broken record Tom, time after time reiterating the same old tired rant which has never said anything more than in his opinion hippy trash should be hounded off his waterways.

[bassplayer]

I am sorry i do not accept linking the government not being able to provide everyone who wants to live in central London with affordable housing and those people who can afford to buy a boat then say they cant afford a mooring, so therefore should be exempt from paying for one.

I personally have just been trying to get on and it has took me over 30 years, but i pay my way ....as you say not everyone who doesn't pay a mooring is a piss taker ... there are many genuine CCers.

Another point while i am at it, for some reason people only talk about London when talking about CMers where my views regarding CMers refer to anyone on the system, It isnt about how much room these boats take up, it is about people not paying for the waterways they are living on.

 

Rick

I understand your gripe about people not paying their way but there is a difference between those who can't pay and those who won't pay. We all have bad luck in different ways but it's a good job there are nice people around us who are prepared to help us through the bad luck. To write people off just because they are trying to survive is heartless in my eyes. All we are doing by making boats move further away is move the real problem further away.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

remind me; how long did Tom Rolt spend moored in one spot at the top of Tardibigge?

A rather pointless comment if I may say so. Yes I am fully aware that he spent 1800 days at the top of Tardebigge however there were one of two mitigating factors, like we were at War (1939 - 45 if you need to look it up!). Perhaps enforcement may have been a little slack at the time . At least he actually did something to preserve the canals, unlike the johnny-come-lately's I referred to who just make a lot of noise!