Petition on 38 degrees

[Lady Muck]

You've asked them have you? i'd dispute that seeing as the world and his wife seem to be paying for winter moorings these days, never seen such a take up, has gone up by a lot, its obvious to me, the issue is that there arent any free permanent moorings to rent, where they are wanted, so we are accusing people of not wanting to pay for something that doesnt exist.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Lady Muck

[Tom Richmond]

CRT issue a licence to use a boat on their waterways. Someone paying for said licence is the tennant, CRT are the landlord. The tennant is obliged to either take up a home mooring, or engage in a continual cruising pattern. The petition is asking CRT to look more favorably on those boaters who do the minimum required to fall into that latter category, and asking them not to use the threat of not re-issuing a licence, which in some instances may cause homelessness.

 

I signed it.

[Tom Richmond]

It seems that some of the people who are signing this petition are not really clear on the concept of what a landlord does - i.e. collect rent! From the comments on the petition page:

 

 

Apparently the person who wrote that comment does not understand, or refuses to recognize, that the people who are pushing this petition don't want to pay rent for the space they occupy, and that is why they are in an uproar. I know that the license fees are a charge for using the waterways, but those fees are supposed to be for using, not parking your boat in one place. This whole issue is that the CMers want free moorings.

 

This is an issue with divergent points of view. However, it seems rather disingenuous to demand that CRT be a better landlord with a petition that says you shouldn't have to pay rent. "Good landlords" make sure that fair rent is charged and collected. Good landlords don't give their stock in trade away for free.

 

Disagree. The issue is that someone who has moved to a new place every 14 days, maintaining a constant pattern of movement (A to B to C etc), with no enforcement contact from CRT, can now be told that they will not be reissued a licence unless they take a mooring, because they moved the least.

[Paul C]

 

Disagree. The issue is that someone who has moved to a new place every 14 days, maintaining a constant pattern of movement (A to B to C etc), with no enforcement contact from CRT, can now be told that they will not be reissued a licence unless they take a mooring, because they moved the least.

 

That isn't factually true.

[Guest]

CRT issue a licence to use a boat on their waterways. Someone paying for said licence is the tennant, CRT are the landlord.

 

I signed it.

Utter nonsense. I have a licence to use a boat on CRT waterways, that in no way way establishes a tenant and landlord relationship, any more than paying the DVLA for my use of a car does with the Highways Agency.

[cotswoldsman]

 

That isn't factually true.

Why not? Could you give us the facts in that case

[jenlyn]

That isn't factually true.

It's very true.

You just don't know, but more importantly, you DON'T WANT TO KNOW.

So you attempt to ridicule it, and anyone who states it

[MtB]

I agree with PaulC. the statement being challenged isn't factually true.

 

The boater does not HAVE to take a home mooring as stated to get a licence renewed. According to CRT they could instead choose to modify their cruising pattern to achieve compliance and demonstrate they have done so.

 

CRT do not go straight from 'no enforcement' to denial of a licence. They give the boater an opportunity to achieve compliance AIUI.

 

Not necessarily an easy option for all CCers I agree, but it remains an option available to them. Or are you saying that isn't what happens?

 

MtB

[luctor et emergo]

I agree with PaulC. the statement being challenged isn't factually true.

 

The boater does not HAVE to take a home mooring as stated to get a licence renewed. According to CRT they could instead choose to modify their cruising pattern to achieve compliance and demonstrate they have done so.

 

CRT do not go straight from 'no enforcement' to denial of a licence. They give the boater an opportunity to achieve compliance AIUI.

 

Not necessarily an easy option for all CCers I agree, but it remains an option available to them. Or are you saying that isn't what happens?

 

MtB

The problem is though, that CRT arbitrarily move the goal posts, and try to change the laws. It is a slippery slope, which will see you having to moor your boats on thrir moorings soon, because you're not complying with CRT rules.

[Paul C]

Why not? Could you give us the facts in that case

 

How about Tom Richmond list the boats/boaters who have been declined licence renewal, along with their cruising log - then we can all have a look and see if they've moved "to a new place every 14 days"?

[MtB]

The problem is though, that CRT arbitrarily move the goal posts, and try to change the laws. It is a slippery slope, which will see you having to moor your boats on thrir moorings soon, because you're not complying with CRT rules.

 

 

No, the problem is the factually incorrect statement that was incorrectly challenged as being factually correct. The challenge is being challenged. That is the point under discussion.

 

I think....

 

 

MtB

[cotswoldsman]

I agree with PaulC. the statement being challenged isn't factually true.

 

The boater does not HAVE to take a home mooring as stated to get a licence renewed. According to CRT they could instead choose to modify their cruising pattern to achieve compliance and demonstrate they have done so.

 

CRT do not go straight from 'no enforcement' to denial of a licence. They give the boater an opportunity to achieve compliance AIUI.

 

Not necessarily an easy option for all CCers I agree, but it remains an option available to them. Or are you saying that isn't what happens?

 

MtB

So they get a home mooring but decide they prefer to be out and about people on here and CRT will decide they have a Ghost Mooring can't win can they?

[MtB]

So they get a home mooring but decide they prefer to be out and about people on here and CRT will decide they have a Ghost Mooring can't win can they?

 

Of course they can win. Silly comment.. They can do as the vast majority of CCers do, and comply with the CC rules just like you do.

 

 

MtB

[bassplayer]

Hopefully the outcome of this petition is that CRT's tactics of using the T&C's as a free ticket to do what they like will be exposed. Whether you have a home mooring or not, I really don't believe the majority of boaters will benefit from this.

[Gordias]

@NigelMoore (if you're reading this thread) ...

My impression it that CaRT make a significant effort to avoid being defined as a landlord, and to avoid taking direct responsibility for social welfare. It makes sense of course - they surely don't want to restart receiving bills for council tax for towpath moorers

The petition does highlight an interesting question: is it possible "legally speaking" for CaRT to establish a landlord/tenant relationship with live-aboard boaters who do not have a permanent mooring in a CaRT marina, and are not licensed as a houseboat?

 

 

(NB: I excluded houseboats because there are so few of them, and few (if any) new "houseboat licenses" are issued - it doesn't seem worth researching)

Edited February 21, 2015 by Gordias

[cotswoldsman]

@NigelMoore (if you're reading this thread) ...

 

My impression it that CaRT make a significant effort to avoid being defined as a landlord, and to avoid taking direct responsibility for social welfare. It makes sense of course - they suirely don't want to restart receiving bills for council tax for towpath moorers

 

The petition does highlight an interesting question: is it possible "legally speaking" for CaRT to establish a landlord/tenant relationship with live-aboard boaters who do not have a permanent mooring in a CaRT marina, and are not licensed as a houseboat?

 

But in this case the landlord is not liable for council tax you really need to check your facts before posting

[MtB]

But in this case the landlord is not liable for council tax you really need to check your facts before posting

 

 

There are plenty of situations where the landlord pays the council tax. HMO's are one obvious example. You really need to check your facts before posting.

 

MtB

[NigelMoore]

is it possible "legally speaking" for CaRT to establish a landlord/tenant relationship with live-aboard boaters who do not have a permanent mooring in a CaRT marina, and are not licensed as a houseboat?

Without pretence at authority in this field I would say not. CaRT correctly [in my opinion] distance themselves from use made of the boats they licence respecting their being live-aboard or not. Their remit is limited to licensing boats to be kept and used on the waterway; whether people choose to live on those or not is immaterial to them, and no waterways legislation I am aware of imposes any such landlord relationship.

 

It may be pertinent to note that even in the case of the less than 80 houseboat licences, the definition of this class of vessel specifically precludes any relevance of these being used for habitation or not.

 

The situation could well be different in situations where they run specifically live-aboard moorings for the houseboats they license; that involves direct provision of an habitable [and council tax liable] facility, which might just create such a relationship, but that is just an off-the-cuff surmise.

 

By the way - the page on my laptop at least, has suddenly lost the usual look and ability to format, so I can't see how it is to come out, or control font/emphasis or anything! I think this happened once before and I was told how to revert to normal, but I have forgotten.

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

There are plenty of situations where the landlord pays the council tax. HMO's are one obvious example. You really need to check your facts before posting.

 

MtB

Re read my post I said in this case ie CRT. How many HMO's on the canals do you have a figure?

[Guest]

By the way - the page on my laptop at least, has suddenly lost the usual look and ability to format, so I can't see how it is to come out, or control font/emphasis or anything! I think this happened once before and I was told how to revert to normal, but I have forgotten.

 

Toggle the tool bar switch - it appears top left immediately to the right of your Avatar when you are composing a post.

Edited February 21, 2015 by MJG

[PaulG]

Just goes to show that you can put up anything for a petition today, with no requirement for any kind of accuracy of the information provided to the potential supporter of the petition.

Their use of the word "many" to try to quantify the potential scale of the problem is misleading.

Even CRT admit that most CC'ers comply with their guidance.

IMO the new "rules" are likely to affect only a small number of boaters.

I, for one will not be signing this!

[bassplayer]

Just goes to show that you can put up anything for a petition today, with no requirement for any kind of accuracy of the information provided to the potential supporter of the petition.

Their use of the word "many" to try to quantify the potential scale of the problem is misleading.

Even CRT admit that most CC'ers comply with their guidance.

IMO the new "rules" are likely to affect only a small number of boaters.

I, for one will not be signing this!

Some might find it difficult to comply if CRT add a distance of say 250 or even 500 miles to their T&C's (and it seems they could do that just because they feel like it). What CRT say is compliance now might not be in the future. The wording is no more emotive than the wording used by those who have a gripe with CM'ers or even CC'ers. I believe the new rules will have a knock on effect on everyone but I guess only time will show if I'm right.

[Paul C]

Some might find it difficult to comply if CRT add a distance of say 250 or even 500 miles to their T&C's (and it seems they could do that just because they feel like it). What CRT say is compliance now might not be in the future. The wording is no more emotive than the wording used by those who have a gripe with CM'ers or even CC'ers. I believe the new rules will have a knock on effect on everyone but I guess only time will show if I'm right.

 

Scaremongering

[bassplayer]

Scaremongering

No, I'm just someone trying to stop jealous people from messing up my life. Some people just don't like others being happy!

[bassplayer]

...just to add this reference to Tuscans recent post, if the IWA are recommending 500 miles then what representation have CC'ers really got!

 

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