CANAL & RIVER TRUST OUTLINES POLICY FOR BOATERS WITHOUT A HOME MOORING

[dmr]

Well, I sort of class rugby as Brum, so I am a bit out. I also class anywhere with a tube as london, and I shouldn't do that really either.

The last time I did Uxbridge to Warwick, it was 94 miles.

 

Thankyou. I've never used canal plan.

 

You're half right, anywhere with a tube station probably is London (except for underground stations in Liverpool of course), but no way is Rugby part of Birmingham. Birmingham and the Black Country have their own language and culture and they're only a few miles apart, Rugby is a foreign country.

 

.............Dave

[onionbargee]

Tell me why complying with the CC rules is so important to CRT ? Its a minor problem in reality.

 

Tell me what they will do if large numbers of boaters opt for a mooring, which CRT doesnt have.

 

Tell me they won't send me texts asking me to move when the canal is frozen. Like they just have.

[bassplayer]

Tell me why complying with the CC rules is so important to CRT ? Its a minor problem in reality.

Tell me what they will do if large numbers of boaters opt for a mooring, which CRT doesnt have.

Tell me they won't send me texts asking me to move when the canal is frozen. Like they just have.

....because it's all about money my friend...

[MtB]

Tell me why complying with the CC rules is so important to CRT ? Its a minor problem in reality.

 

Tell me what they will do if large numbers of boaters opt for a mooring, which CRT doesnt have.

 

Tell me they won't send me texts asking me to move when the canal is frozen. Like they just have.

 

Where is the canal still frozen then?

[Paul C]

Which bit of post 14 didn't you get?

 

 

Post #14 being.....

Yes I agree. We should be told the criteria to which we must comply with. It's a bit like not having speed limits and just being told "We'll nick you if we feel like it".

 

We ARE told the criteria - firstly by simply looking up the relevant law, and secondly by CRT's guidance. Distance is not the criteria, "place to place" is.

[Ricco1]

Distance is important to CRT, as important as the cruising pattern. Let' assume an a,b,c,d,e etc cruising pattern, moving every 2 weeks, then reversing the pattern.

 

At one end of the scale this might only cover a distance of a few miles whereas at the other extreme it could be Manchester to London. I think all would agree that the latter is acceptable to all whereas the former isn't acceptable to CRT. So CRT already have a minimum distance in their minds but are not prepared to share the 'secret'.

[Paul C]

Distance is important to CRT, as important as the cruising pattern. Let' assume an a,b,c,d,e etc cruising pattern, moving every 2 weeks, then reversing the pattern.

 

At one end of the scale this might only cover a distance of a few miles whereas at the other extreme it could be Manchester to London. I think all would agree that the latter is acceptable to all whereas the former isn't acceptable to CRT. So CRT already have a minimum distance in their minds but are not prepared to share the 'secret'.

 

It is though - they accept so long as you're moving from place to place its okay.

 

Would you like to define "place" and then once you've created a list of all the places, measure the distance in between them? Would the distance be the same or different for each pair of adjacent places?

[Ricco1]

 

It is though - they accept so long as you're moving from place to place its okay.

 

Would you like to define "place" and then once you've created a list of all the places, measure the distance in between them? Would the distance be the same or different for each pair of adjacent places?

 

OK so if for the purpose of debate let's assume places are 3 miles apart:

 

Is a,b,c,d,then reversed (9 miles) acceptable?

 

Is a,b,c,d,e,f,g then reversed (18 miles)?

 

Is a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h (21 miles)?

 

What is acceptable?

[Paul C]

 

OK so if for the purpose of debate let's assume places are 3 miles apart:

 

Is a,b,c,d,then reversed (9 miles) acceptable?

 

Is a,b,c,d,e,f,g then reversed (18 miles)?

 

Is a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h (21 miles)?

 

What is acceptable?

 

 

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=CRT+continuous+cruising+guidance

[Ricco1]

 

 

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=CRT+continuous+cruising+guidance

 

Guidance is fine but leaves room for interpretation, as we know. If asked the question those issuing the guidance should be able to give a 'yes, acceptable' or 'no, not acceptable' answer to a specific question. And I'm sure they do, if an individual boater asks a specific question, but their required standards remain a dark secret to everyone else.

 

Would it not be sensible to add to the guidance something along the lines of: "Generally speaking boaters movements should be progressive and extend to a minimum of (say) 20 km during a 12 month licence period"

 

It appears that CRT are already using this measure to facilitate their 'radar' so why not publish it? might just save them a whole load of work. .

Edited February 14, 2015 by Ricco1

[Paul C]

 

Guidance is fine but leaves room for interpretation, as we know. If asked the question those issuing the guidance should be able to give a 'yes, acceptable' or 'no, not acceptable' answer to a specific question. And I'm sure they do, if an individual boater asks a specific question, but their required standards remain a dark secret to everyone else.

 

Would it not be sensible to add to the guidance something along the lines of: "Generally speaking boaters movements should be progressive and extend to a minimum of (say) 20 km during a 12 month licence period"

 

It appears that CRT are already using this measure to facilitate their 'radar' so why not publish it? might just save them a whole load of work. .

 

There seems to be two kinds of CCer: those who cruise a lot, and don't worry about whether they're doing anything wrong because they understand the rules and probably far exceed them; and those who are seeking to stay (a hair-breadth) the right side of the "line" to avoid hassle/enforcement/prosecution/losing their boat/changing their lifestyle. The second group want the rules/guidelines further and further defined so they can confidently think they're okay; the first group support the second in general but have a valid concern that the further and further refinement of guidelines might not be for the greater good.

[Ricco1]

 

There seems to be two kinds of CCer: those who cruise a lot, and don't worry about whether they're doing anything wrong because they understand the rules and probably far exceed them; and those who are seeking to stay (a hair-breadth) the right side of the "line" to avoid hassle/enforcement/prosecution/losing their boat/changing their lifestyle. The second group want the rules/guidelines further and further defined so they can confidently think they're okay; the first group support the second in general but have a valid concern that the further and further refinement of guidelines might not be for the greater good.

 

I think you're right, there are 2 distinct groups.

 

Looking at the second group: They very often have either made a lifestyle choice to downsize and lead a simpler life or have been driven to it by circumstances; often lack of money. They often have reasons why they want to stay in a particular area be that social, family, work or whatever. Some refuse to budge an inch but many others would be happy to move more if only they knew how far. Within a a hair-breadth perhaps but what's wrong with that, isn't life like that? For example, don't all businesses declare their tax liabilities within a hair-breadth of the law, at best?

[mango]

Richard Parry explains

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWsIPDG_tw

Edited February 14, 2015 by mango

[Maffi]

Mod hat off.

 

What CRT propose is reasonable, but they have forgotten one thing.

 

To give boaters a clear places map, so that boaters know BEFORE any need for CRT to contact them, whether they are in breach of the guidelines or not.

It is slightly/(very?) unfair to not tell boaters what the acceptable cruising pattern in any (wide) area is....and then send them a letter when it's too late. I suspect that by the time you receive your first letter, you are already on a naughty list, that you will never be removed from....until you buy a home mooring. Even then I suspect you'll remain on the list. I fear the enjoyment of boating for many will be eroded because they'll never actually know if they're within the rules or not, and will spend a lot of time looking over their shoulders, when a map would remove any uncertainty, and let people enjoy their boating without any worries.

Dean For a long time boaters in London asked for clarification of distance and the meaning of places/neighbourhood. CRT came up with a proposed places map for London and the boaters said it was unworkable. I think any map CRT produced would have been 'unworkable' Those who follow the rues will be OK because they already comply those who don't, won't.

 

What worries me is this has come about because there are people on boats who don't want to follow the rules and a blanket solution has been issued. What will be the next blanket solution that will affect all of us and the one after that?

[Maffi]

If CRT said you must travel 10 miles every 14 days there are those who would complain.

There are those who would ask "Do you actually mean 10 miles or about 10 miles?"

If CRT said you must travel 5 miles every 14 days there are those who would complain.

There are those who would ask "Do you actually mean 5 miles or about 5 miles?"

If CRT said you must travel 2 miles every 14 days there are those who would complain.

There are those who would ask "Do you actually mean 2 miles or about 2 miles?"

 

CRT cant win!

[Tuscan]

Dean For a long time boaters in London asked for clarification of distance and the meaning of places/neighbourhood. CRT came up with a proposed places map for London and the boaters said it was unworkable. I think any map CRT produced would have been 'unworkable' Those who follow the rues will be OK because they already comply those who don't, won't.What worries me is this has come about because there are people on boats who don't want to follow the rules and a blanket solution has been issued. What will be the next blanket solution that will affect all of us and the one after that?

 

I think there is some truth here, the £25 fine on some visitor moorings came about as there were a few that were overstaying on visitor moorings and rather than deal with the issue on the ground it was easier to implement a new system of fines and no return rules that effect all. Fair and consistent enforcement that keeps the waterways moving is a good thing let's hope they manage this.

[Tony Dunkley]

Distance is important to CRT, as important as the cruising pattern. Let' assume an a,b,c,d,e etc cruising pattern, moving every 2 weeks, then reversing the pattern.

 

At one end of the scale this might only cover a distance of a few miles whereas at the other extreme it could be Manchester to London. I think all would agree that the latter is acceptable to all whereas the former isn't acceptable to CRT. So CRT already have a minimum distance in their minds but are not prepared to share the 'secret'.

 

The C&RT stipulation in their 'Guidance' that boats cannot comply with the Law by moving between only two different places is nonsense. There is no mention in the '95 Act of 'cruising pattern', nor have any Courts found that boat movements limited to journeys between only two different places are unacceptable. It may be important to C&RT, but they cannot lawfully refuse a Licence because a boat's movement is limited to travelling between only two different places.

[Sir Nibble]

Through all the long years of this debate and supported by the Davies judgement I have come to the conclusion that as far as the law allows distance is not the thing, the use to which the boat is put is. I would suggest that "bona fide for navigation" means going boating. If a boat is cruised a short distance two or three times a week whilst staying in a restricted area then the owner is clearly enjoying the navigation of their boat. If on the other hand the boat is never moored for less than 14 days then it becomes more likely that the owner is seeking to minimise navigation and is probably not Bona fide. I would submit that a map giving minimum distances is actually something of a concession since whilst it increases the travelling distance, it makes no observation of frequency. I expect to have it forcibly pointed out that 14 days is what the act says etc etc but that is a limit, not a target and 14 days moored followed by an hour of movement and another 14 days mooring is clearly the minimum someone thinks they can get away with. The very act of seeking a minimum blows bona fide out of the water.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sir Nibble

[wreckferret]

As usual there is a while lot of going round in circles......

I am no expert when it comes to the letter of the law, which, going by what I have read on various threads puts me level with the err.......experts

To my simple mind, all that is needed is a common sense approach, (not that common I know) from all.

The trust need to resurrect the "places" map with clearly defined boundaries, and they need to specify how many places you must traverse in one direction before heading back the way you came.

All this talk of guide lines is complete tosh, the trust want to impose rules, and evidently they want to enforce them. To do this effectively means that we MUST know what the rules are before we are accused of breaking them.....

As usual there is a while lot of going round in circles......

I am no expert when it comes to the letter of the law, which, going by what I have read on various threads puts me level with the err.......experts

To my simple mind, all that is needed is a common sense approach, (not that common I know) from all.

The trust need to resurrect the "places" map with clearly defined boundaries, and they need to specify how many places you must traverse in one direction before heading back the way you came.

All this talk of guide lines is complete tosh, the trust want to impose rules, and evidently they want to enforce them. To do this effectively means that we MUST know what the rules are before we are accused of breaking them.....

[Sir Nibble]

Back to the two groups mentioned earlier. Group one enjoys boating and does lots of it. Group two wishes to do the absolute minimum actual boating they can get away with.

[mark99]

 

 

Deleted

Edited February 14, 2015 by mark99

[jenlyn]

Let's take the maps for a minute.

Next Friday, the trust are introducing them, and as of April the first, all boats must do 5 neighbourhood's.

An example, 5 neighbourhood's = Paddington to Watford, roughly 40 odd miles.

2000 boats come out of london on April the first, but let's be really conservative and say 500 give up boating before that.

What will be the result of a 1500 boat linear moving marina shuffling between Watford and Paddington?

Try to think outside of the box that "well it doesn't affect me because I am nowhere near London".

[alan_fincher]

An example, 5 neighbourhood's = Paddington to Watford, roughly 40 odd miles.

 

More GU distance pedantry, but roughly 30 miles, surely?

[Paul C]

Let's take the maps for a minute.

Next Friday, the trust are introducing them, and as of April the first, all boats must do 5 neighbourhood's.

An example, 5 neighbourhood's = Paddington to Watford, roughly 40 odd miles.

2000 boats come out of london on April the first, but let's be really conservative and say 500 give up boating before that.

What will be the result of a 1500 boat linear moving marina shuffling between Watford and Paddington?

Try to think outside of the box that "well it doesn't affect me because I am nowhere near London".

 

They'd not all move the same day. Yes, we're going to see "actual boating" occuring - good.

 

 

More GU distance pedantry, but roughly 30 miles, surely?

 

Jenlyn I hope CRT didn't get you to check the maps, your geography is shocking.

[jenlyn]

More GU distance pedantry, but roughly 30 miles, surely?

We were here sitting on the boat just saying Alan fincher will be the first to reply ;-)

They'd not all move the same day. Yes, we're going to see "actual boating" occuring - good.

 

 

 

Jenlyn I hope CRT didn't get you to check the maps, your geography is shocking.

And that's another predictable reply.

Your choosing to miss the point that there will be a 1500 boat linear marina shuffling along.

Edited February 14, 2015 by jenlyn