Council Tax and Continuous Cruisers

[cotswoldsman]

He sighs and think why bother!

Previously India now Europe?

Does that not tell you something?

A well thought out reply to your nonsense then

[bassplayer]

Indeed it is easy to misinterpret we can all do it from time to time but my original post commenting on yours was not a misinterpretation, you said

 

 

I was pointing out the thought that we as "all boaters" were subsidising anyone is false and in fact the "general public" is not getting "free use" as they (the tax payers) are putting in collectively more than boaters are.

 

As you rightly pointed out in your clarifying post that subsidy will go under present agreements. We are all going to be in shtook then as I don't see the gap caused being filled by donations or other revenue streams.

 

Still, no problem I still don't see it is any issue that CCers don't pay Council Tax. I was not having a go at you just trying to say that you did not need any justification other than CCers are not eligible to pay Council Tax but us boaters are not subsidising anyone. Have a pleasant evening.

Ah, I see your point now. I suppose if you're a tax payer and a boat licence payer you are contributing twice to CRT (well for the time being anyway). Of course there are those who enjoy the CRT system who don't pay tax or a licence fee! They are subsidised by all forms of revenue stream...including licence payers.

 

I quite like the Irish system of funding. You top up a card which let's you go through locks and use the facilities. That's pretty much a non-starter here as most locks aren't electrically operated or locked. Maybe we could have toll points at most key sites...hasn't that been done before?

 

Joking aside, once the government subsidy stops we will need a fair way to raise revenue. In this capitalist world sponsorship seems the usual way forward. After all it didn't do any harm to football...

[b0atman]

Maybe boats could be mobile advertising hoardings .

Locks sponsored by local businesses .

[bassplayer]

Maybe boats could be mobile advertising hoardings .Locks sponsored by local businesses .

If I'm not mistaken...the irony is that many of the canals we enjoy now were renovated by volunteers. Maybe the CRT volunteer network could be extended throughout all business areas of CRT to maintain them. Maybe I should spend less time on here (and other virtual worlds) and do more to help...

[churchward]

If I'm not mistaken...the irony is that many of the canals we enjoy now were renovated by volunteers. Maybe the CRT volunteer network could be extended throughout all business areas of CRT to maintain them. Maybe I should spend less time on here (and other virtual worlds) and do more to help...

They certainly were and many of them young people who were not boat owners. I did my bit on the Kennet & Avon as a younger man it took me 30+ years to become a boat owner on from those times. Most of the people I worked with were doing it for what it would create in the longer term and in the short term it was just damn good fun with a good bunch of like minded people. The girls were a nice distraction too, well I was young!

[tillergirl]

Getting back to the original question: I have been asked this in the past. My answer was "I live in approx 420 sq ft of space for which including licence and insurance I pay in the region of £xxxx a year. What CRT do with the money I pay them is a mystery to me I assume they pay a % towards local services from the money I pay."

[bassplayer]

They certainly were and many of them young people who were not boat owners. I did my bit on the Kennet & Avon as a younger man it took me 30+ years to become a boat owner on from those times. Most of the people I worked with were doing it for what it would create in the longer term and in the short term it was just damn good fun with a good bunch of like minded people. The girls were a nice distraction too, well I was young!

Hmm...long term thinking...there's a blast from the past. I've found the bit of volunteering I've done in the past priceless. It taught me a lot. Sometimes we forget money doesn't buy happiness....much...

 

Anyway, I thought girls are always a nice distraction....

[BruceinSanity]

They certainly were and many of them young people who were not boat owners. I did my bit on the Kennet & Avon as a younger man it took me 30+ years to become a boat owner on from those times. Most of the people I worked with were doing it for what it would create in the longer term and in the short term it was just damn good fun with a good bunch of like minded people. The girls were a nice distraction too, well I was young!

In my experience of WRG, they don't do it because they want to be boaters, largely, they do it because they enjoy dirty weekends and weeks.

 

Which is absolutely fine by me, it's a great organisation and only marginally attached to the IWA, or Eye-Way as they call it.

[Robbo]

best off sending me a message Robbo we can speak about packets and your get and put info there its not really relevant to the thread

 

I use Wireshark as part of my job on a regular basis, I know about packets and what info is there. You can't sniff other peoples packets remotely.

[Peter Thornton]

The OP asked for some facts about CT. The thread seems to have moved on a bit but perhaps I can help?

CT in my area has four separate components:

1. County Council portion - the largest part. This goes to a variety of services but the big money is spent on adult social care.

2. District Council. Largely goes on services that might be seen as somewhat similar to those provided by CART. Waste collection etc

3. Police.

4. Parish Council, normally quite small charge.

 

In a logical world, CC's would pay something towards 1 and 3 as I would expect that they would want to use these services.

 

But CT isn't really logical in the first place is it? And I speak as the leader of a (District) council and the portfolio holder responsible for collecting it! But we don't have a (working) canal in our area so have no experience collecting from boaters.

[Lady Muck]

I think that the effort needed and extra administration to collect council tax from the tiny amount of boaters would probably far outweigh any money collected. There are about 1200 ccers in London. It's a miniscule amount. There are more people (nearly four times as many) living in warehouses without planning permission near Tottenham Hale.

And what do you do when boaters leave London for the summer - do you stop collecting? Lots of boaters do this.

[Gordias]

I think that the effort needed and extra administration to collect council tax from the tiny amount of boaters would probably far outweigh any money collected. There are about 1200 ccers in London. It's a miniscule amount. There are more people (nearly four times as many) living in warehouses without planning permission near Tottenham Hale.

And what do you do when boaters leave London for the summer - do you stop collecting? Lots of boaters do this.

 

This is why I pointed out earlier that it would be possible, using COTS technology, to efficiently count boats in an urban area like Islington once a day and still make a profit. It would probably only take an average of 100 boats at 1000 per year tax (**) - i.e. I'd expect 100K per year in gross income would cover boat tracking and leave plenty over for council services.

 

I also pointed out (but repeat anyway) that a few people in other threads have suggested the tax can only be collected on a yearly basis. This may currently be true, but laws can be changed - and the article quoted in the OP suggests that there is at least one London council that's distinctly unhappy about "CMers" in their area. It seems that Islington already sees the boaters in their area as a floating Dale Farm, so I guess they're already looking for ways to limit boat numbers and normalize boaters' administrative relationships with the council.

 

The article also highlights ways in which boaters are more intrusive than other kinds of informal inhabitants (noise, pollution, blocking "scenic" access to the canals, etc). These may not be valid criticisms, but that's hardly the point - the council will respond to their voters' perceptions rather than to facts.

 

**

I looked at the wiikipedia page for long enough to realize it's not worth it to me to figure out the details of council tax rates, and picked 1000 as being close(ish) to the 80% of the average Band D rate for Islington.

Hopefully a CW user will provide a better estimate based on practical experience. Hopefully the "rage and gibberish herd" (of which you're not a member Lady Muck will wait patiently for someone who already has accurate numbers to provide them.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Gordias

[Alan de Enfield]

I think that the effort needed and extra administration to collect council tax from the tiny amount of boaters would probably far outweigh any money collected. There are about 1200 ccers in London. It's a miniscule amount. There are more people (nearly four times as many) living in warehouses without planning permission near Tottenham Hale.

And what do you do when boaters leave London for the summer - do you stop collecting? Lots of boaters do this.

 

As has been said on a number of occasions CCers are not obliged to pay CT.

 

Are those 1200 you quote actually CCers, or are a number of them Liveaboard CMers - who probably should be paying CT

[cotswoldsman]

 

As has been said on a number of occasions CCers are not obliged to pay CT.

 

Are those 1200 you quote actually CCers, or are a number of them Liveaboard CMers - who probably should be paying CT

I think you are confused Alan those boaters that declare no home mooring as with those with non residential mooring have no obligation to pay CT I think the 1200 are all boaters with no home mooring.

[Alan de Enfield]

I think you are confused Alan those boaters that declare no home mooring as with those with non residential mooring have no obligation to pay CT I think the 1200 are all boaters with no home mooring.

 

Is that not opening another can of worms :

 

Those that declare "no home mooring" to save paying for a mooring, then find somewhere to tie-up and stay there as a 'Continuous Moorer'

 

As a declared CCer there is no obligation to pay CT, but as, in effect, these CMers have made a false declaration & have become residents of the area should they not (in principle) be paying CT ?

[cotswoldsman]

Is that not opening another can of worms :

 

Those that declare "no home mooring" to save paying for a mooring, then find somewhere to tie-up and stay there as a 'Continuous Moorer'

 

As a declared CCer there is no obligation to pay CT, but as, in effect, these CMers have made a false declaration & have become residents of the area should they not (in principle) be paying CT ?

 

How can declaring no home mooring when you have no home mooring be a false declaration? You either have a mooring or you don't

[Alan de Enfield]

How can declaring no home mooring when you have no home mooring be a false declaration? You either have a mooring or you don't

 

I'm glad you agree with me.

 

I said that CMers made a false declaration, They have no intention in CCing, and moor up at the first available location - rarely to move again, they have a (possibly illegal) home mooring but pretend they don't.

 

I am obviously not going to sway you to think of anything but 'good' for CMers, and to avoid a 'circular ' argument that seems to cause so much angst between certain forum members - I'll try no more.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[boathunter]

Here we go again, deliberately mis-interpreting.

You know very well Cotswoldman meant home mooring in the bit you highlighted.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

How can declaring no home mooring when you have no home mooring be a false declaration? You either have a mooring or you don't

Actually, the declaration is that the information supplied is correct. My understanding is that there is no legal requirement to declare if you have a home mooring or not and if you leave that part of the form blank then you are treated as not having a home mooring.

 

You also declare that you accept CaRT's licence conditions which specifically state 'This Licence does not give a right to moor that is sufficient to meet the requirement in the British Waterways Act 1995 for the Boat to have a Home Mooring'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Murflynn]

What the hell does it matter if you are a CMer or a CCer?

The law should be changed so everybody contributes to local services, whether they are in the area for a day or a year. And all adults should pay regardless of the size of their mansion.

 

Present day council tax is effectively a Mansion Tax by another name.

No problem with that, but I do have a problem with all the adults who pay nothing (living with parents, travellers, CCers and CMers, etc.).

 

Maggie's poll tax wasn't far off the mark, but I suppose it only applied to those registered to vote, so it was easy to dodge. Perhaps the concept of ID cards could be used, and the ID card would carry an electronic record of payment of tax. If you need a service (eg Health) and your ID shows you haven't paid you should receive nothing but emergency accident treatment.

[alan_fincher]

Boats are not liable for council tax nor are campervans, touring caravans or tents all of which could be used as habitation.

 

That rather sweeping statement rather ignores that some boat owner with residential moorings pay it though, doesn't it?

[Guest]

What the hell does it matter if you are a CMer or a CCer?

The law should be changed so everybody contributes to local services, whether they are in the area for a day or a year. And all adults should pay regardless of the size of their mansion.

 

Present day council tax is effectively a Mansion Tax by another name.

No problem with that, but I do have a problem with all the adults who pay nothing (living with parents, travellers, CCers and CMers, etc.).

 

Maggie's poll tax wasn't far off the mark, but I suppose it only applied to those registered to vote, so it was easy to dodge. Perhaps the concept of ID cards could be used, and the ID card would carry an electronic record of payment of tax. If you need a service (eg Health) and your ID shows you haven't paid you should receive nothing but emergency accident treatment.

 

My daughter is an adult and lives with us, she pays income tax and lodge which in turn is a contribution towards our council tax and other household expenses.

 

The other groups you appear to be attempting to stigmatise will also be paying towards local services via. income tax. I don't understand how many times people have to explain this. The fact they are not able to pay council tax is not a fault of theirs but an issue in the way the tax is collected and who is deemed liable for it legally. And let's not forget some CCer's WILL be paying council tax too as being a CCer and being a home owner liable for council tax are not mutually exclusive.

 

It is as they say 'just one of those things'. If it realy does tax you (pun intended) then perhaps campaign for a change in the law because until something changes it is how it is.

Edited January 6, 2015 by The Dog House

[carlt]

 

Maggie's poll tax wasn't far off the mark,

 

Maggie's poll tax was a million miles off the mark unless, of course you are rich.

 

A local income tax, where everybody pays a fair proportion to fund local services would be much better.

[Alan de Enfield]

Here we go again, deliberately mis-interpreting.

You know very well Cotswoldman meant home mooring in the bit you highlighted.

 

Of course I know he meant Home-mooring and that is why I say that CMers are lying when they state they have no home mooring - they do have one - they just "squat" on a bit of water, moor their boat, and make their home there - a home mooring.

 

I am obviously making a very poor job of explaining what I mean (or others are deliberately mis-understanding or trying to get an argument going) so I'll 'stand down' and see what happens.

[bassplayer]

Maggie's poll tax was a million miles off the mark unless, of course you are rich.

 

 

....and of course here's the problem...ability to pay. Maybe some CC'ers and CM'ers choose their life style because it's one of the only ways they can afford to live somewhere.

 

If a live aboard boater is driven off the system because they can't pay up, the local council would probably have to declare them homeless and provide them with council accommodation at the expense of the local tax payer.

 

I believe in everyone being fair but some of us need to understand that we're not all fortunate in life. It's very easy to sit in nice warm ivory towers and judge everyone else.