Hackney CMers want to have a "CC Licence" and to remain in one place.

[magnetman]

I thought Nigel Moore was off the main line of the cut but I may have got that wrong and would be happily corrected

[Alf Roberts]

I thought Nigel Moore was off the main line of the cut but I may have got that wrong and would be happily corrected

 

That is not relevent.

 

It was his opinion on EOG moorings I referred to first.

 

Followed by the observation that your logic, applied to his battle (not about EOG), would have him fail at the first hurdle, then the second, when in fact he won his case.

[Tony Dunkley]

I thought Nigel Moore was off the main line of the cut but I may have got that wrong and would be happily corrected

He was on the River Brent, at the bottom end of the GU, and BW were exercising powers they didn't have. Sounds familiar, doesn't it ?

Edited December 29, 2014 by Tony Dunkley

[Alan de Enfield]

Does doing stuff for the waterways allow you to rise above the law?

 

 

I thought there was 100 pages on this and the issue was settled. Your statement is libellous. Tony Dunkley has not 'risen above the law'.

 

I suggest you provide evidence or apologise.

 

As it followed MagnetMans post saying C&RT have no right to charge EOG fees - I read Paul C;s statement as reffering to C&RT, not Tony Dunkley

 

I am quite intrigued about CRT having no right to charge 'EOG' fees. Reminds me of the pillings lock con.

 

 

[GUMPY]

Come on then all those shouting how EOG charges are against the law, club together find some sucker to use as a test case and take CRT to court over it.

I have paid EOG/FF for over 20 years and the refund would be great, however I would never put myself forward as a test case, far to much to lose.

[Alf Roberts]

 

 

As it followed MagnetMans post saying C&RT have no right to charge EOG fees - I read Paul C;s statement as reffering to C&RT, not Tony Dunkley

 

 

I saw PaulC as referring to Tony Dunkley as a reply to Wanted's post.

 

if it wasn't I shall, of course, apologise.

[Wanted]

Does doing stuff for the waterways allow you to rise above the law?

No, and nobody has.

[Jerra]

would substituting ' statutory powers' for 'laws' meet with your approval ?

Apart from the fact you have yet to deal with how case law changes the situation it would meet with my approval.

[Tony Dunkley]

Apart from the fact you have yet to deal with how case law changes the situation it would meet with my approval.

It's questionable whether three County Court outcomes should rate being labelled as case law, but regardless of that the situation is unchanged. Buying a boat licence buys the right to keep as well as use a boat on C&RT waters, irrespective of the misleading and incorrect wording they susequently used in Clause 2.1 of the Licence T&C's following the third 'success', in order to bring those T&C's into line with the specious arguments used in Court.

[Jerra]

It's questionable whether three County Court outcomes should rate being labelled as case law, but regardless of that the situation is unchanged. Buying a boat licence buys the right to keep as well as use a boat on C&RT waters, irrespective of the misleading and incorrect wording they susequently used in Clause 2.1 of the Licence T&C's following the third 'success', in order to bring those T&C's into line with the specious arguments used in Court.

It doesn't necessarily give the right to keep it in any particular place.

 

To use a slightly different analogy the Road Tax gives you the right to have your car on the road but not the right to a parking space outside your house.

 

As I understand it a single county court case can be used to form case law if the decision is important enough.

[Tony Dunkley]

It doesn't necessarily give the right to keep it in any particular place.

 

To use a slightly different analogy the Road Tax gives you the right to have your car on the road but not the right to a parking space outside your house.

 

As I understand it a single county court case can be used to form case law if the decision is important enough.

That's certainly true, but it does give the right to occupy waterspace commensurate with the length of the boat throughout the whole of the period of the Licence, and in a canal that waterspace will inevitably be above the canal bed that C&RT own, and equally inevitably it will alternate between being static or moving. BW argued (successfully) that the right to keep a boat on a waterway that came with the Public Right of Navigation must have ended with the abolition of the PRN by the 1968 Transport Act, but this argument takes no account of the fact that what the 1968 Act actually did was to change free of charge rights into rights that were chargeable and to be bought by paying a Licence fee. In buying a Licence a boat owner is buying the right to use and keep a boat on C&RT waters, but BW and now C&RT would prefer that not to be generally known, that's the reason for them changing ' the Licence allows you to keep and use the boat ' to ' the Licence allows you to use the boat' in the Licence T&C's.

As keeping a boat on a waterway cannot result in anything other than occupying waterspace, it follows that in buying the Licence you have bought the right to occupy waterspace and therefore to charge for a mooring on the grounds of occupying waterspace cannot be anything other than charging twice for the same thing.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Tony Dunkley

[wreckferret]

 

 

To use a slightly different analogy the Road Tax gives you the right to have your car on the road but not the right to a parking space outside your house.

 

No, but as long as it has a valid MOT and insurance it does give you the right to park it in one place for the whole year, local parking restrictions not withstanding of course.......

[Jerra]

 

To use a slightly different analogy the Road Tax gives you the right to have your car on the road but not the right to a parking space outside your house.

 

No, but as long as it has a valid MOT and insurance it does give you the right to park it in one place for the whole year, local parking restrictions not withstanding of course.......

It is those local parking restrictions that are the whole point. Local parking restrictions are made by the due authority and put limits in force. I don't know anywhere round here that you could leave a car in the same place without it moving for anything like 12 months. So to apply that to the canals the Authority ( CRT) have made restrictions which have been backed by court decisions 3 times.three times

As keeping a boat on a waterway cannot result in anything other than occupying waterspace, it follows that in buying the Licence you have bought the right to occupy waterspace and therefore to charge for a mooring on the grounds of occupying waterspace cannot be anything other than charging twice for the same thing.

Just like with a car you buy the right to have it on the road taking up a certain amount of space but when you stop things change. Have you ever seen a parking meter?

[Paul C]

The EOG fee "buys" the exclusivity of that space for your boat. Its as simple as that, and it is incredibly poor value for money compared to a mooring which doesn't need the EOG fee paid; or CCing. But.........its the law, its been ruled upon, and that should be respected.

 

AFAIK TD doesn't need to pay an EOG fee - if he does, he is free to not pay it, then encite a court case to try challenge it.

 

AFAIK the community moorings under discussion here ARE subject to the EOG fee. The people who'd challenge it if they wished to do so, would be the people/organisation taking up the mooring. I'm sure they've reviewed TD's advice in reaching their decision to pay it (or not).

 

If anyone else has an EOG mooring and wishes to stop paying it, then I'd be interested in their challenge and subsequent court case, and watch it closely. If it means a re-distribution of the way CRT receives income from boaters, then so be it, given that the EOG mooring fee does seem unreasonably high. I don't pay it either, so it won't be me challenging it though.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Just like with a car you buy the right to have it on the road taking up a certain amount of space but when you stop things change. Have you ever seen a parking meter?

 

Of course I have, lots of them, but not in front of houses, including those with front gardens next to the road.

[Jerra]

 

Of course I have, lots of them, but not in front of houses, including those with front gardens next to the road.

They are due to go up in front of houses with gardens next to the road in this county in 2015.

[GUMPY]

 

Of course I have, lots of them, but not in front of houses, including those with front gardens next to the road.

Have you not been to Islington (its in London), on most of the residential streets houseowners have to pay to park outside their houses. Its much the same across the whole of the city.

[junior]

 

Of course I have, lots of them, but not in front of houses, including those with front gardens next to the road.

You haven't travelled much then. Most houses in Brighton, a city ruined by the Green Party, now have a parking meter outside them.

[magnetman]

Canals and boats are in no way similar to cars and roads but if you can afford a house in Islington(London) then you can afford a residents parking permit

 

I get on street permit parking with my residential mooring, which I also have to pay for.

 

Some houses have dropped kerbs but I think (do not know the ins and outs) that it is in agreement with the local authority and that you can't avtually park in your front garden if you do not have a dropped kerb.

 

Anyway, roads and cars are completely different. Are you allowed to live in a van on your driveway while renting out the house to tenants who are paying the council tax?

Edited December 29, 2014 by magnetman

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

Anyway, roads and cars are completely different. Are you allowed to live in a van on your driveway while renting out the house to tenants who are paying the council tax?

Probably, people in Gt Yarmouth lived in their garages while letting out all their bedrooms as B&B all summer

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Just like with a car you buy the right to have it on the road taking up a certain amount of space but when you stop things change.

 

I'm not sure that's so, I think paying for car Road Tax buys you the right to use your car on public roads and nothing more, hence as the Road Tax fee does not pay for the right to keep a vehicle on the public road it would be reasonable (and lawful) to demand an additional charge for doing so.

 

In Post 335 you said : -

Jerra

To use a slightly different analogy the Road Tax gives you the right to have your car on the road but not the right to a parking space outside your house.

 

If you want to use vehicles, roads and parking and use analogously then, of course, you should have added that in the event of your (insured, MOT'd and taxed) car being parked on the road outside or near your house every day, and in the absence of double yellow lines, parking meters or any other restriction, that there would be no additional charge levied by the DVLA, Highways Agency or the Local Authority for doing so.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Tony Dunkley

[Tony Dunkley]

Have you not been to Islington (its in London), on most of the residential streets houseowners have to pay to park outside their houses. Its much the same across the whole of the city.

Only on the canal, and a long time ago. Maybe C&RT should install Mooring Meters on the towpath in that area.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Tony Dunkley

[Alf Roberts]

what exactly has car parking got to do with anything?

[Jerra]

 

I'm not sure that's so, I think paying for car Road Tax buys you the right to use your car on public roads and nothing more, hence as the Road Tax fee does not pay for the right to keep a vehicle on the public road it would be reasonable (and lawful) to demand an additional charge for doing so.

 

In Post 335 you said : -

Jerra

To use a slightly different analogy the Road Tax gives you the right to have your car on the road but not the right to a parking space outside your house.

 

If you want to use vehicles, roads and parking and use analogously then, of course, you should have added that in the event of your (insured, MOT'd and taxed) car being parked on the road outside or near your house every day, and in the absence of double yellow lines, parking meters or any other restriction, that there would be no additional charge levied by the DVLA, Highways Agency or the Local Authority for doing so.

See the posts about parking meters.

[Tony Dunkley]

See the posts about parking meters.

I have seen them, but as there aren't any C&RT parking meters along towpaths (yet) I can't see that they are of any relevance.

Perhaps you will explain why you introduced the subject of cars and parking to the topic, was it to divert attention from the fact that you couldn't put together a rational argument in defence of the EOG charge ?

Edited December 29, 2014 by Tony Dunkley