"Fitting Out A Liveaboard We Tell You How And The Costs Involved" Whilton Marina Article

[Dharl]

 

Many of my tools are well over a hundred years old (some more than 200 years old), and still work as well as the day they were made.

 

 

exactly, well maintained tools should last a lifetime. Have to say that some recent tools I have bought from a well know orange branded DIY store I doubt if they will last the end of the decade, let alone be able to pass them down the generations!

[John V]

Sometimes the cheapo ones can surprise you....about 8 years ago I was doing a job that needed several people using small grinders at the same time and I bought 3 cheap small grinders. Each of them came with a pack of discs and cost very little more than the price of the discs. After the job I gave 2 away to the lads working for me and kept one myself.

I was using it this weekend as I was modifying my engine room hatch and apart from the switch getting hard to switch on (still easy off) its still working perfectly !!!

Edited November 18, 2014 by John V

[FadeToScarlet]

Sometimes the cheapo ones can surprise you....about 8 years ago I was doing a job that needed several people using small grinders at the same time and I bought 3 cheap small grinders. Each of them came with a pack of discs and cost very little more than the price of the discs. After the job I gave 2 away to the lads working for me and kept one myself.

I was using it this weekend as I was modifying my engine room hatch and apart from the switch getting hard to switch on (still easy off) its still working perfectly !!!

Yes, I have a Tesco Value 500w drill that, 7 years later, is refusing to die, despite being used to Tercoo blaster off all the cabin paint, polish various bits, and drill holes in everything from 10mm steel to large hole saws in wood.

[DeanS]

I think that article is completely misleading.

It's ok if the new boater has loads of cash, and is going to go for top of the range for all sorts of things,...

 

BUT......

 

if you are someone who only has perhaps £3000 (for the fit out), and good enough credit to get a bank loan of £10 000 (for a smallish project boat you can strip out and fix), you can easily make the move onto a boat. You'd do better having a marina mooring, so that...

 

 

1. You can connect directly to your water tap until such time as you sort out your water pump, batteries etc.

2. You can connect to shorepower and have some home lights, a microwave, tv , washing machine etc until you've wired up your boat properly, over a long period of time.

 

Putting in a shower, some basic ply flooring, walls and ceilings....doesnt take longer than 2 weeks. (see my blog).

 

It is completely possible for anyone to move onto a boat, and then SLOWLY work on it over many months and years,. as their budget allows. Telling people the only way is to have £12000 for the internal fit out is misleading.

 

just my personal opinion of course..lol

Edited November 18, 2014 by DeanS

[Neil Coker]

As I'm going through the process at the moment I read this article with a lot of interest. Whilst some of the the costs are inflated overall they are pretty realistic. I've got actual quotes for custom made mattresses which are comparable. by being selective in the purchases, including be willing to buy secondhand and refurbish things, a lot of savings can be made. Just from my own perspective I wouldn't even consider installing a pair of £3000 cupboards. If you can't do the work yourself there are a lot of good joiners who can make a more cost effective option. As far as the kitchen is concerned it can be as expensive or as cheap as you want to budget. My target is good quality handmade units from marine ply and hardwood facings, a second hand AGA (off EBlag), a second hand three way fridge (off EBlag)' stainless marine sink (off EBlag) and all refurbished for under a tenth of their new price. Same applies to multifuel stoves, etc. Most people don't have a limitless budget and guides like this do give newbies like me a outline of what the costs may be.

[Alan de Enfield]

...................a second hand three way fridge (off EBlag)' .....................

 

Just a 'word of warning', these 3-way fridges are not the most efficient and were designed for touring caravans. with the 12v being used whilst towing (and the car engine running) - there were always warnings on caravan forums/websites/ magazines etc about parking up in the 'services' for a couple of hours and ending up with a flat car battery. In the end it was suggsted that some gadget/relay be fitted into the car electrics (12S socket) to switch the supply off when the car battery voltage dropped towards being unable to start the car.

 

The 240v was obviously designed for when on a campsite with hook-up, and the gas for sites with no hook-up.

 

If using it in a boat you will need to wire in the 220v and the gas (be aware of the flue requirements) but I would sugest unless you have battery monitoring equipment and a strict charging regime that you may have problems if you wire it into the 12v system.

 

Whilst initially more expensive a new 12v (or 220v and Inverter - if that is he route you go down) will be much more efficient, meaning you discharge the batteries less, hence run the engine less.

 

Cheapest is not necessariy the most economical.

 

Now - dozens of replies will be posted saying I have one and its fine. - Just pointing out things for consideration !!!

[John V]

It's not hard to make the carcasses out of 18mm ply with hardwood edging. The doors are harder to make for the average DIYer but good solid wood kitchen cabinet doors are often available as second hand items. Another source of doors is ex-display kitchens or end of line sales

[Neil Coker]

Alan, good points, I've experience with both a 12/240 WAECO and more ancient three way fridges in off-road vehicles with trailer campers and small yachts ( all with separate battery power and solar panels and with invertors when necessary as I travel a lot so have to set up many a Heath Robinson setup). If I could source a 12v unit fridge that would be ideal. Ideally I want to put in a larder style undercounted fridge with drawers (as opposed to shelves) as that means the cold stays in more efficiently when you have to open it to remove or place items inside.

[cuthound]

We had a 3 way fridge on our first share boat, Electrolux (now Dometic) IIRC.

 

Never missed a beat in 10 years when run on gas. They are absorption type types and use heat (gas, or 12v or 230vheater) to evaporate the coolant (water/ammonia mix). Very economical on gas, not so on electricity.

 

The most common fault is the ammonia coming out of solution and forming crystals. Easily fixed by tipping the fridge upside down and shaking it!

 

Sadly, not very common now as Dometic say they are unsuitable for boats, as they may roll by more than 5 degrees (not likely on a canal) and the BSS requires them to be room sealed.

 

The main advantage is that they only use 12 volts to light the door operated internal light, assuming you use them on gas, rather than 12v to heat them.

 

Edited to change "heat" to "heat"

Edited November 19, 2014 by cuthound

[BruceinSanity]

The theory of relativity and the absorption refrigeration cycle; both credited to Albert Einstein; which is the more useful?

 

Discuss.

[ukdiggerboy]

didnt think you could have a 3 way fridge with the new BSS ??

[alan_fincher]

 

If using it in a boat you will need to wire in the 220v and the gas (be aware of the flue requirements)

 

Surprisingly, perhaps, but there are no mandatory requirements about flues on gas fridges. Having them vent into the cabin space is actually accepted.

 

didnt think you could have a 3 way fridge with the new BSS ??

 

Yes you can - there are no restrictions on LPG fridges, (if it is a private boat).

[kris88]

 

 

 

Yes you can - there are no restrictions on LPG fridges, (if it is a private boat).

 

Which is strange as I think a gas fridge is amongst one of the most dangerous thinks you could fit on a boat .

Regards kris

[cuthound]

Why do you think they are so dangerous?

 

The gas supply to them is no different to that to a cooker. There is a flame failure device to cut off the gas supply if the flame goes out, and either the air supply & exhaust will be vented to atmosphere via a balanced flue (newer models) or the exhaust vented outside, with the air supply taken from inside the boat (older models), in which case the ventilation requirements will form part of the BSS fixed ventilation requirements.

 

The water/ammonia refrigerant is in a sealed circuit, so cannot escape unless punctured. In the event of a leak the smell of ammonia alerts you to the leak.

 

They have the big advantage over compressor fridges that they consume almost no energy from the batteries.

 

There are tens of thousands (possibly more) in use across the world in caravans, as well as inland waterways boats.

[Iain_S]

The theory of relativity and the absorption refrigeration cycle; both credited to Albert Einstein; which is the more useful?

 

Discuss.

Theory of relativity : without it, GPS and some electronics wouldn't work, while other heat pumps are available ....

Iain

[Sabcat]

Koukouvagia makes a good point about tools.

I don't regard them as a cost because I had them long before embarking on building my shed, and will be using them on other projects in future, but for someone who buys all the tools needed, fits out a boat, then has no plans to use those tools again, they are a cost, although they don't lose their value much if used properly.

 

As it happens, I've broken and replaced both my drill and jigsaw during my shed project. That's just bad luck, I bought both in 1985 and have used them quite a lot over the years, so they had a good innings.

 

I bought all the tools my fit out second hand - Triton work centres are brilliant btw - and when I'd finished I sold them again. I lost nothing on them in fact on the Triton bits I made over £100

[alan_fincher]

Which is strange as I think a gas fridge is amongst one of the most dangerous thinks you could fit on a boat .

Regards kris

 

And your evidence for this is?

 

Or is it just a theory you have, but with no data you can present that supports it?

[FadeToScarlet]

Which is strange as I think a gas fridge is amongst one of the most dangerous thinks you could fit on a boat .

Regards kris

Surely the solid fuel stove is the most dangerous, after all they tend to kill people every year.

[kris88]

The most important bit of my post you've missed Alan is "I think" . My opion backed up by my experience. I have worked at a lot of festivals that won't let them be used on site, because of the risks. I've seen quite a few fires on sites, that have turned out to caused by faulty gas fridges. Maybe they have improved, but based on my experience I wouldn't have one.

As is said on this forum regularly I'm entitled to my opion.

Regards kris

[cereal tiller]

The most important bit of my post you've missed Alan is "I think" . My opion backed up by my experience. I have worked at a lot of festivals that won't let them be used on site, because of the risks. I've seen quite a few fires on sites, that have turned out to caused by faulty gas fridges. Maybe they have improved, but based on my experience I wouldn't have one.

As is said on this forum regularly I'm entitled to my opion.

Regards kris

Faulty is the word that should be emphasised.

Have installed Umpteen gas Fridges and serviced lots.

used them in hire craft for over 4 decades and have never come across a safety problem other than ones caused by neglect.

my current boat has 2 of them.

CT

 

P.S. would not use one in long grass though!

Edited November 20, 2014 by cereal tiller

[David Mack]

Surprisingly, perhaps, but there are no mandatory requirements about flues on gas fridges. Having them vent into the cabin space is actually accepted.

 

 

and either the air supply & exhaust will be vented to atmosphere via a balanced flue (newer models) or the exhaust vented outside, with the air supply taken from inside the boat (older models),

Not so. As Alan has said, older gas fridges, without balanced flues usually vent their exhaust directly into the living space.

[cuthound]

Not so. As Alan has said, older gas fridges, without balanced flues usually vent their exhaust directly into the living space.

Not always so. The one on our first share boat took its exhaust up a chimney, terminating in a mushroom on the cabin top.

[alan_fincher]

Not always so. The one on our first share boat took its exhaust up a chimney, terminating in a mushroom on the cabin top.

Which, if it is like many of the Electrolux / Dometic models, definitely should not be done.

 

The manual contains clear instructions that they should not have any modifications made to standard flues supplied by the manufacturer, and (from memory) I'm pretty sure that the flues must not be lengthened.

The most important bit of my post you've missed Alan is "I think" . My opion backed up by my experience. I have worked at a lot of festivals that won't let them be used on site, because of the risks. I've seen quite a few fires on sites, that have turned out to caused by faulty gas fridges. Maybe they have improved, but based on my experience I wouldn't have one.

So you have no evidence of a properly maintained one ever causing a problem on a boat, but still think they are one of the most dangerous things you can fit on a boat?

[kris88]

I've never claimed to have evidence, other than my own experience. You fit what you like on your boat!

Regards kris

[cuthound]

Which, if it is like many of the Electrolux / Dometic models, definitely should not be done.The manual contains clear instructions that they should not have any modifications made to standard flues supplied by the manufacturer, and (from memory) I'm pretty sure that the flues must not be lengthed

The boat was an Ownerships one built by Pat Buckle. The fridge was in the original build and never modified. In the time I had a share it passed two BSC's in the days when share boats had to meet the higher standards of the "hire" BSC. However as I am not familiar with the installation requirements for these fridges, I cannot say whether it met the manufacturers requirements or not.