leaking

[MtB]

While waiting for a crane out Sabina H was kept afloat for several weeks by a lump of sponge rubber with a bit of ply on top held down firmly by 2, 56lb weights.

 

It's truly amazing how little is needed to keep something watertight !!!

 

 

And yet the insurance companies would have us believe that an absolute minimum of 5mm of solid steel is essential to keep the water out!

[alan_fincher]

While waiting for a crane out Sabina H was kept afloat for several weeks by a lump of sponge rubber with a bit of ply on top held down firmly by 2, 56lb weights.

 

It's truly amazing how little is needed to keep something watertight !!!

I guess that depends on whether you consider a full hundredweight of steel to be "very little".

 

I certainly wouldn't want to drop "very little" on my foot whilst putting it there!

Edited November 15, 2014 by alan_fincher

[MtB]

I guess that depends on whether you consider a full hundredweight of steel to be "very little".

 

I certainly wouldn't want to drop "very little" on my foot whilst putting it there!

 

Good point.

 

On a heavily perforated area of hull there is every possibility of the two weights falling straight through leaving a nice 6" x 12" hole, I reckon too!

 

MtB

[John V]

so far no one has asked how big the lump of foam and the piece of ply was ! ( it wasn't "a" hole as much as an area that was rapidly disapearing)

[MtB]

How big was the lump of foam and the piece of ply??!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Having had much the same problem earlier this year when I found the bilge below my rear cabin full of water (it dampened the floorboards) my first thought would be to look at the water pump. Mine is in the bows just below the water tank and was slightly damp around the seal, when I asked my crew to run a tap whilst I kept an eye on it, the water spurted out. Even so I was absolutely amazed at how a relatively small leak such as that will quickly fill your bilges. On mine all of the water runs to the back bilges. Changed the water pump at Stone (on Trent and Mersey)) and haven't had a problem since.

[John V]

How big was the lump of foam and the piece of ply??!

 

about 15" x 48", it was a complete section of plate between the keelson and the bilge keel and between two ribs that was rapidly becoming lace.

 

It was by far and away the worst bit of corrosion on the whole boat, I reckon that at some point there had been a cargo spill there (sulphuric acid)

[ynnad]

Hi everyone

 

 

 

First I would like to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who responded to my very brief message for advice about a leak. To be honest when I left that message i had just annoyingly lost a much better and longer explaination to the ether, and was not in the mood to rewrite it at the time, but I wanted to see if it worked and if people would respond. ... I have been really impressed so far, so thanks to all of you!

 

 

 

To summarise the issue as much as I can:

 

 

 

We bought our boat, Prestige, in May, its an ex hire boat circa 1989, Colcraft hull, and have been living on her since. We had a hull survey on purchase which was sound and minimum readings of 9.7mm throughout, however we soon discovered that the whole of the back third of the boat flooring had rotted because of what must have been a very longstanding, almost certainly internal, leak which had left the bilge full of water.

 

 

 

Since then i have had countless eurika " at last this is the solution" moments, only to find more water in the bilge under the back cabin deck soon afterwards. I think I must have fixed leaks at something like 15 different points, quite a few of them significant ones. There is something primeval about this and it is really getting to me now, but i am determined to get to the bottom of it! Had I known at the start that this was going to be such a journey I would have approached it in a more systematic way and kept notes about things like how long it takes to find water in the bilge, exactly what we had done immediately before that e.g. Take a showerh, and what the weather was doing. That would have helped narrow things down sooner.

 

Anyway I ripped out the whole back cabin and toilet floor deck, removed the balast, managed to get it dry and appeared to have sorted the leak ( we were at about at least the number ten count by then I think), wax sealed the floor, replaced the balast and fooring and off we went, problem solved..... . Only it wasn't of course.

 

When i removed the deck there was a period where we had no tell-tale pump noises in the night, and no water in the bilge, which gave us a false sense of security. This was when we were in a marina having a morso filled and linked to our central heating system, but the leaks are not related to this. I took the opportunity to familiarise myself with all of the pipework at that point and was able to establish or rework it all so that either everything was assessible to the eye and could be checked, or if not that there was no join in any pipework where it could leak, at least not where it was not easily accessible under the floor. The only places where this was not the case are under the bath, which was virtually inaccessible. However after several days of colouful language and bruised hands I believe i have fixed all the leak points there and cannot think of anywhere else it can be coming from, but the **** pump is still going off periodically and there is water in the bilge!

 

 

 

Other points are:

 

The water appears to be clear, its is never oily or soapy from the shower, and when i tried a number of tactics to identify where the water originated using strong acidic solutions (lemon juice), various water testing kits for fishtanks and water soluable kids paint none of it helped for a variety of reasons. I don't think it is riverwater but if it is coming in through a very small apature perhaps it would be enough to filter out the silt you would normally expect to see in river or canal water and make it look clear.

 

The watertank which lies under the front deck is stainless steel and sound, i have crawled under the deck and its dry.

 

My questions are:

 

How long is it likely to take water to flow down under the deck, through the balast to were it collects, if the leak were at the front end of the boat?

 

The other suggestion is that it could be a crack in a weld somewhere although when I called the surveyor he said that was possible but very unlikley.

 

Someone else suggested water could be coming in from window seals when it rains ( we have 17 windows) which although sounds possible I think we have had too much water in the bilge appear suddenly for that, and the window seals are old but dont seem in such a bad state that they would let such a lot of water in..... Or could they?

 

Has anyone got any other suggestions about tracking this leak or is there anything else it could be?

 

 

 

I have noticed that there does not appear to be any sytematic troubleshooting guide to finding leaks, does anyone know of one? If not is would be really useful thing to have if anyone has the mind and the time to do it.

 

 

 

Many thanks in anticipation for all replies.

 

 

 

Danny

[Neil2]

I think you have answered the question yourself, if the water pump is still firing when there's nothing turned on, no taps dripping etc. there must be a leak somewhere. I know this sounds silly maybe but have you checked the connection on the water pump itself? The outlet joint is a very common place for water to drip from owing to the pump vibration - I recently fixed a leak on a neighbour's boat that was exactly this, and all three boats I've had have all sprung leaks from there at some time. It usually just needs a decent wrapping with PTFE tape or maybe just tightening up. I'm so paranoid about his now I make sure I can see the water pump at all times, they are normally boxed in aren't they, the noise is irritating but at least I will know immediately if the thing starts leaking.

 

If the windows were the culprit you would almost certainly see signs of leaking somewhere around the seals or on the cabin lining.

 

Is you pipework plastic, copper or a mixture?

[ynnad]

HI everyone

 

 

 

First I would like to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who responded to my very brief message for advice about a leak. To be honest when I left that message i had just annoyingly lost a much better and longer explaination to the ether, and was not in the mood to rewrite it at the time, but I wanted to see if it worked and if people would respond. ... I have been really impressed so far, so thanks to all of you!

 

 

 

To summarise the issue as much as I can:

 

 

 

We bought our boat, Prestige, in May, its an ex hire boat circa 1989, Colcraft hull, and have been living on her since. We had a hull survey on purchase which was sound and minimum readings of 9.7mm throughout, however we soon discovered that the whole of the back third of the boat flooring had rotted because of what must have been a very longstanding, almost certainly internal, leak which had left the bilge full of water.

 

 

 

Since then i have had countless eurika " at last this is the solution" moments, only to find more water in the bilge under the back cabin deck soon afterwards. I think I must have fixed leaks at something like 15 different points, quite a few of them significant ones. There is something primeval about this and it is really getting to me now, but i am determined to get to the bottom of it! Had I known at the start that this was going to be such a journey I would have approached it in a more systematic way and kept notes about things like how long it takes to find water in the bilge, exactly what we had done immediately before that e.g. Take a showerh, and what the weather was doing. That would have helped narrow things down sooner.

 

Anyway I ripped out the whole back cabin and toilet floor deck, removed the balast, managed to get it dry and appeared to have sorted the leak ( we were at about at least the number ten count by then I think), wax sealed the floor, replaced the balast and fooring and off we went, problem solved..... . Only it wasn't of course.

 

When i removed the deck there was a period where we had no tell-tale pump noises in the night, and no water in the bilge, which gave us a false sense of security. This was when we were in a marina having a morso filled and linked to our central heating system, but the leaks are not related to this. I took the opportunity to familiarise myself with all of the pipework at that point and was able to establish or rework it all so that either everything was assessible to the eye and could be checked, or if not that there was no join in any pipework where it could leak, at least not where it was not easily accessible under the floor. The only places where this was not the case are under the bath, which was virtually inaccessible. However after several days of colouful language and bruised hands I believe i have fixed all the leak points there and cannot think of anywhere else it can be coming from, but the **** pump is still going off periodically and there is water in the bilge!

 

 

 

Other points are:

 

The water appears to be clear, its is never oily or soapy from the shower, and when i tried a number of tactics to identify where the water originated using strong acidic solutions (lemon juice), various water testing kits for fishtanks and water soluable kids paint none of it helped for a variety of reasons. I don't think it is riverwater but if it is coming in through a very small apature perhaps it would be enough to filter out the silt you would normally expect to see in river or canal water and make it look clear.

 

The watertank which lies under the front deck is stainless steel and sound, i have crawled under the deck and its dry.

 

My questions are:

 

How long is it likely to take water to flow down under the deck, through the balast to were it collects, if the leak were at the front end of the boat?

 

The other suggestion is that it could be a crack in a weld somewhere although when I called the surveyor he said that was possible but very unlikley.

 

Someone else suggested water could be coming in from window seals when it rains ( we have 17 windows) which although sounds possible I think we have had too much water in the bilge appear suddenly for that, and the window seals are old but dont seem in such a bad state that they would let such a lot of water in..... Or could they?

 

Has anyone got any other suggestions about tracking this leak or is there anything else it could be?

 

 

 

I have noticed that there does not appear to be any sytematic troubleshooting guide to finding leaks, does anyone know of one? If not is would be really useful thing to have if anyone has the mind and the time to do it.

 

 

 

Many thanks in anticipation for all replies.

 

 

 

Danny

[ynnad]

sorry i am new to the site and having some trouble navigating

 

Our pipework is mainly plastic

 

we have 2 pumps one of which I have replaced i have also redone all the connecting pipework in the vicinity of the pumps

a question I did not answer warier is that I have pumped almost a bucketfuls every 1-2 day

since discovering and fixing the leak under the bath (i had to cut a hole in the wall to access this) the pump is kicking in far less

I am hoping that the water under the bilge now is water that is gradually draining from this long term problem

 

Impressed with all of the replies, and some really fun to read. we are new to boating. Despite all these issues no regrets and we have learnt a lot about our boat in doing all this (sometimes the learning curve was painful though) I am sure this string will from useful guide for anyone with leaks in the future as i have searched and struggled to find info on boat leaks

[Neil2]

Danny - sorry if I'm being a pain but if your pump is firing at all when all the taps are firmly turned off you still have a weak point somewhere. Most people get this when there's a tap dripping, but the pump should be completely silent all the time if you have a leak free system.

 

Frost damage can create tiny, and I mean tiny, pinholes in copper pipes which can be a pain to track down, with plastic it's usually the joints that blow. But if you have any copper pipes check them as thoroughly as you can, these tiny leaks can be be difficult to locate on a low pressure system.

[RLWP]

Frost damage can create tiny, and I mean tiny, pinholes in copper pipes which can be a pain to track down, with plastic it's usually the joints that blow. But if you have any copper pipes check them as thoroughly as you can, these tiny leaks can be be difficult to locate on a low pressure system.

 

It can also freeze water in plastic piping which then pushes the joints apart. Sometimes, this isn't obvious as the joint hangs together, but drips. This is a regular thing on Tawny if I forget to leave the taps open over winter

 

Go round and try to push the pipes back into the fittings, which usually fixes it

 

The last one we had took ages to find. It was behind the fridge

 

Richard

Edited November 16, 2014 by RLWP

[smileypete]

Sometimes water can leak back through the pump, but not as commonly as first thought.

 

Good way to tell either way is put a 'ballofix' type full bore isolator or valve just after the pump, then see if the cycling stops or reduces when it's turned off:

 

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/d20/Valves/sd2696/Full+Bore+Isolating+Valve+CP/p11495

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/d20/Valves/sd2696/Lever+Ball+Valve/p14624

 

BTW these questions come up loads, but the forum search is a bit crap, on a laptop it needs selecting 'Forums' and not 'This topic' by the little search box!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited November 16, 2014 by smileypete

[Alf Roberts]

sorry i am new to the site and having some trouble navigating

 

Our pipework is mainly plastic

 

we have 2 pumps one of which I have replaced i have also redone all the connecting pipework in the vicinity of the pumps

a question I did not answer warier is that I have pumped almost a bucketfuls every 1-2 day

since discovering and fixing the leak under the bath (i had to cut a hole in the wall to access this) the pump is kicking in far less

I am hoping that the water under the bilge now is water that is gradually draining from this long term problem

 

Impressed with all of the replies, and some really fun to read. we are new to boating. Despite all these issues no regrets and we have learnt a lot about our boat in doing all this (sometimes the learning curve was painful though) I am sure this string will from useful guide for anyone with leaks in the future as i have searched and struggled to find info on boat leaks

it will be a good exercise ; find every plumbing joint in the boat and draw a map.

 

some of them will be less obvious than others

[mark99]

If I were you I'd be happy you have the pump going off at odd times. It's telling you what type of leak it is; you just have not found it yet. At least It's not the shell leaking. This is assuming of course it's your water pump working at night not the bilge pump.

[Keeping Up]

Sometimes water can leak back through the pump, but not as commonly as first thought.

 

Good way to tell either way is put a 'ballofix' type full bore isolator or valve just after the pump, then see if the cycling stops or reduces when it's turned off:

 

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/d20/Valves/sd2696/Full+Bore+Isolating+Valve+CP/p11495

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/d20/Valves/sd2696/Lever+Ball+Valve/p14624

 

BTW these questions come up loads, but the forum search is a bit crap, on a laptop it needs selecting 'Forums' and not 'This topic' by the little search box!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

With some makes of pump a failure with water leaking back through the pump is fairly common, I've had two Par Max pumps fail that way in 5 years. I'd put the valve just before the pump because that's a more definite test regardless of how the pressure switch is configured and also it's useful to have one there anyway.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Keeping Up

[alan_fincher]

As has been said, it is not impossible for a pump to cycle on and off due to a fault with the pump, rather than a leak "downstream" of it. However I reckon it would be rare.

 

Smiley Pete's suggestion to introduce a stop valve immediately after the pump, and leave it closed, but with the pump switched on sounds reasonable. If the pump cycles occasionally with the valve open, but not with it closed then it must be the plumbing.

 

Is everything dry around the calorifier?

 

If it were window leaks it doesn't have to be the seals built into the window, (between glass and frame). Where the windows sit on the cabin side is just as likely, (in fact I would say more so). A lot of water can get in this way, but I would normally expect even if it were being "wicked" away from the window, (which happens with Rockwool insulation), that there would be at least staining on internal woodwork somewhere near the window, and possibly far worse.

 

Certainly sounds like plumbing - but I'm surprised you haven't found it yet - there are not normally that many joints on a narrow boat installation.

[Bod]

Drawing a map of your plumbing is a brilliant idea!

Draw only what you can see, straight pipe, connectors, etc. this will give you an idea, where the bits you cannot see are, also hidden connectors.

Most pipe lengths are around 2.5-3 metres long, there could be straight connectors hiding. Idealy you would use rolls of pipe, rather than lengths, to reduce the number of fitting, and leak points.

 

Don't forget to check the hot water pipes, including any pressure relief pipes.

By the time any hot water leak, has got to the bilge it will be cold!

 

Bod

[smileypete]

 

With some makes of pump a failure with water leaking back through the pump is fairly common, I've had two Par Max pumps fail that way in 5 years. I'd put the valve just before the pump because that's a more definite test regardless of how the pressure switch is configured and also it's useful to have one there anyway.

 

I've got valves in both places, ISTR there was a possible issue with using the valve before the pump to detect water leaking back. With a valve after, it'll soon tell if water is leaking back.

 

Am surprised that 2 Par Max have failed that way, thought they were supposed to be good. Sometimes it can be loose brush bristles that have got into the tank and through the strainer.

 

One workaround is to put an external pressure switch after the pump with an NRV in between. Again ISTR that using an NRV alone before the pump may lead to problems in some cases.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[magnetman]

removed

Edited November 17, 2014 by magnetman

[Wanderer Vagabond]

You earlier asked the question about how long it would take the water to get from the front to the back if the leak was at the front, form my experience, not very long at all (hours). The pump I have is a Jabsco and the leak was around the centre of the pump where there was a sort of gasket. It was only a very slight leak when I looked at it but it is astonishing just how much water comes out of such a small leak. if your pump is in any way wet I'd change it.

[blackrose]

I think you have answered the question yourself, if the water pump is still firing when there's nothing turned on, no taps dripping etc. there must be a leak somewhere. I know this sounds silly maybe but have you checked the connection on the water pump itself? The outlet joint is a very common place for water to drip from owing to the pump vibration - I recently fixed a leak on a neighbour's boat that was exactly this, and all three boats I've had have all sprung leaks from there at some time. It usually just needs a decent wrapping with PTFE tape or maybe just tightening up. I'm so paranoid about his now I make sure I can see the water pump at all times, they are normally boxed in aren't they, the noise is irritating but at least I will know immediately if the thing starts leaking.

 

Water pumps should always be connected to the plumbing system by two short lengths of flexible braided hose to cope with vibration, rather than directly to rigid plastic pipe.

[Kwacker]

Prior to adding a touch of silicone sealant to the threads, a regular service routine was to tighten all the external window fixing screws. I was amazed at how much water was getting in that way.

[Guest]

Ionce had a tiny leak under the kitchen sink on a tap connecting flex. It was amazing how much water collected in the bilge over a time.