Engine Starting Issue

[Rob-M]

I have a Vetus M4.14 and it is becoming a bit of a pain to start, sometimes having to try up to 10 times. What is strange though is the randomness as yesterday I arrived at the boat having not been there for a couple of weeks, turned the key and the engine fired first time. Today when I tried to start it it took about 15 attempts before it started. When it doesn't start I just get a click and then nothing. I have had the starter battery checked by an electrician when he was doing some wiring for me and he has said the battery is good. Any ideas on what else to check...?

[Titus]

Sounds suspiciously like the starter motor is playing up, I'd take that off and have it checked first.

 

Dave

[Bloomsberry]

I had the same issue, engine sometimes starting, sometimes just a 'click' sound. Turned out to be a poor connection that gave enough voltage to pull the coil in but not enough to make the contacts (around 7V if I remember correctly). Traced back to the connection on the key switch, remade the joint and have not had an issue since.

 

You need to take some voltage readings in the coil circuit and the starter circuit when the 'click' occurs, it should give you a better idea as to where the fault lies.

[nicknorman]

Could be a bad connection as suggested, or a worn starter solenoid (intermittently connecting) but most probably, worn brushes or commutator within the starter motor.

 

Next time, hold the key to Start and give the starter motor a stout tap with a hammer. If that fixes it (temporarily), I would look at getting the starter motor overhauled.

[Sir Nibble]

DON'T HIT IT WITH A HAMMER! You could easily trash it. Any chance of a picture?

[Rob-M]

Any chance of a picture?

Not at the moment as I am at home again.

[Guest]

I am more familiar with the Vetus 415, but my engine (415) has a relay on the engine block which controls the starter. These sometimes fail.

 

ps shop around for non Vetus prices, the last report of price for a Vetus starter was shocking.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Guest

[Albion]

Before rushing into a diagnosis of starter motor do please check ALL connections and wiring that supply the motor and solenoid feeds right from the battery through to the motor. It will be a very expensive dirty connection if you have just had your starter rebuilt to no avail.

Roger

[John V]

DON'T HIT IT WITH A HAMMER! You could easily trash it. Any chance of a picture?

 

I presume from that post it is one of those modern types with a plastic gearbox?

 

The old fashioned ones often used to get sticky brushes and a bang with the handle end of a hammer would often clear it, as a get you home measure

never heard of one of those being trashed by a good thump.

[Phil Ambrose]

I once had a issue with starting and having checked the starter battery was OK, I checked all the connections back to the ignition switch which was where I found the fault, dodgey connection, easily sorted and away we went.

Phil

[Sir Nibble]

 

I presume from that post it is one of those modern types with a plastic gearbox?

 

The old fashioned ones often used to get sticky brushes and a bang with the handle end of a hammer would often clear it, as a get you home measure

never heard of one of those being trashed by a good thump.

I don't know what type it is which is why I'd not hit it with a hammer! Some modern starters, in fact quite a lot are permanent magnet machines and use of the impact adjuster easily shatters the magnets.

[John V]

I don't know what type it is which is why I'd not hit it with a hammer! Some modern starters, in fact quite a lot are permanent magnet machines and use of the impact adjuster easily shatters the magnets.

 

 

ah! understand ....thought it must be something on those lines...I know the geared types can be fragile but I hadn't come across any permanent magnet ones apart from the geared types...must be getting old, they keep moving the goalposts. I pulled apart a generator the other day and couldn't recognise any of it.....permanent magnets rotating round the stator....thought I was losing it and then realised it was an inverter type

[MtB]

What the OP needs is a proper boat engine, with a starting handle.

 

 

MtB

[kevinl]

I had the same problem with the starter motor not turning over and after having it reconned I found this on the RCR website

"With Beta and Vetus engines a common issue is that the engine will not turn off or that the engine is completely dead. To resolve this, locate the wiring loom running across the top of the engine and identify a ‘bulge’. Peel back the rubber covering and you will find a block connector– just pull the connection block apart and then put it back together. This should rectify the situation. It’s easy when you know what to look for, so spend time scrutinising your engine before a failure occurs."

It worked for me, all I now have to figure out is why.

http://www.rivercanalrescue.co.uk/tips-and-advice/canal-boat-breakdown-guide/

 

Here's someone else with the same problem, the last post is the most interesting one

 

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-356470.html

 

K

Edited September 21, 2014 by kevinl

[John V]

Pah! I've got a proper boat engine 8 litre 6 cyl , not one of them diddy things that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding

(You'd need a big handle for that)

[Higgs]

You've really got to start with the wires and contacts. Although I have a BMC, it has just been having similar trouble. A few hours spent checking and cleaning the electrical connections may do. The 'click' was all I could get. before some thorough contact cleaning.

[kevinl]

You've really got to start with the wires and contacts. Although I have a BMC, it has just been having similar trouble. A few hours spent checking and cleaning the electrical connections may do. The 'click' was all I could get. before some thorough contact cleaning.

Fair comment, contact cleaning and checking is the most simple, obvious and likely the cheapest fix, but there is a Vetus (and apparently Beta engines too) a specific fault to do with a block connector in the wiring loom so much so RCR have seen fit to mention it on their website. Vetus engines mainly go in lumpy water boats and are used and sold worldwide so I look for engine advice and parts wherever I can find them. I'm quite happy to take a tip from an Yank Vetus owner as I am from a Yorkshire one. At the end of the days engines are all pretty much the same but the electric/starter click thing it seems to be a bit of bad design that's causing it.

K

[Higgs]

Fair comment, contact cleaning and checking is the most simple, obvious and likely the cheapest fix, but there is a Vetus (and apparently Beta engines too) a specific fault to do with a block connector in the wiring loom so much so RCR have seen fit to mention it on their website. Vetus engines mainly go in lumpy water boats and are used and sold worldwide so I look for engine advice and parts wherever I can find them. I'm quite happy to take a tip from an Yank Vetus owner as I am from a Yorkshire one. At the end of the days engines are all pretty much the same but the electric/starter click thing it seems to be a bit of bad design that's causing it.

K

 

It's a useful piece of info for Vetus owners, that there is a particular known problem in the loom. All electrical connections are prone and it is, as you say, not a big expense to inspect the electrics first. It's also quite gratifying that a simple service can/could rectify the starter problem. Hopefully.

[Albion]

Fair comment, contact cleaning and checking is the most simple, obvious and likely the cheapest fix, but there is a Vetus (and apparently Beta engines too) a specific fault to do with a block connector in the wiring loom so much so RCR have seen fit to mention it on their website. Vetus engines mainly go in lumpy water boats and are used and sold worldwide so I look for engine advice and parts wherever I can find them. I'm quite happy to take a tip from an Yank Vetus owner as I am from a Yorkshire one. At the end of the days engines are all pretty much the same but the electric/starter click thing it seems to be a bit of bad design that's causing it.

K

 

 

 

It's a useful piece of info for Vetus owners, that there is a particular known problem in the loom. All electrical connections are prone and it is, as you say, not a big expense to inspect the electrics first. It's also quite gratifying that a simple service can/could rectify the starter problem. Hopefully.

Pulling apart the loom connector and reconnecting it is only remaking a connection by either wiping clean a contact or closing a contact that has worked loose, it's not like rebooting a computer, so the original advise to check connection cleanliness/tightness is still valid. The good bit is telling you where to find the hidden connector.

Roger

[Higgs]

 

 

Pulling apart the loom connector and reconnecting it is only remaking a connection by either wiping clean a contact or closing a contact that has worked loose, it's not like rebooting a computer, so the original advise to check connection cleanliness/tightness is still valid. The good bit is telling you where to find the hidden connector.

Roger

 

And take lots of photos of the wiring and connections. Helps with reassembly if there's no other information or electrics is not something you usually tackle. I'd have been stuck for knowing a few wire positions without the photos.

[Guest]

I had the same problem with the starter motor not turning over and after having it reconned I found this on the RCR website

"With Beta and Vetus engines a common issue is that the engine will not turn off or that the engine is completely dead. To resolve this, locate the wiring loom running across the top of the engine and identify a ‘bulge’. Peel back the rubber covering and you will find a block connector– just pull the connection block apart and then put it back together. This should rectify the situation. It’s easy when you know what to look for, so spend time scrutinising your engine before a failure occurs."

It worked for me, all I now have to figure out is why.

http://www.rivercanalrescue.co.uk/tips-and-advice/canal-boat-breakdown-guide/

 

Here's someone else with the same problem, the last post is the most interesting one

 

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-356470.html

 

K

Great tip. Stored in memory.

 

Interesting that the later 415 Vetus has such a relay in the starter circuit (from what I can see the 414 doesn't appear to have such a relay.)

Edited September 22, 2014 by Guest

[bizzard]

It'll depend on the quality and how sturdy and meaty are the contacts inside the ignition start switch are as to whether a relay is fitted. Its usually best to fit a relay to protect the switch.

[Alan de Enfield]

Three times I have typed out about 30 lines of suggested reasons, and each time its just dissapeared.

 

Short version - take off starter motor, connect direct to battery (with jump leads) see if the 'dog' is thrown out and if it rotates.

 

On mine the 'dog' was thrown out but it didnt rotate - trip to repair man, £78 (inc VAT) job done.

[bizzard]

Regarding those orrible loom plugs often dangling and situated under a cruiser stern deck in the cold wet and damp is to cut out the plug and socket completely and chuck it, after all they're only there to connect or disconnect when installing or removing the engine. I have on occasions in the past cut the dam thing out and soldered all the wires together, binding them all up individually with self amalgamating tape finishing by binding up the whole bundle thoroughly with self amalgamating tape. A proper job, completely water and damp proof and no more trouble.

 

ETA I recently had to do this on the engines electric fuel pump loom plug on an Isuzu engine in an ex Black prince boat which kept on letting the owner down.

Edited September 22, 2014 by bizzard

[Guest]

Regarding those orrible loom plugs often dangling and situated under a cruiser stern deck in the cold wet and damp is to cut out the plug and socket completely and chuck it, after all they're only there to connect or disconnect when installing or removing the engine. I have on occasions in the past cut the dam thing out and soldered all the wires together, binding them all up individually with self amalgamating tape finishing by binding up the whole bundle thoroughly with self amalgamating tape. A proper job, completely water and damp proof and no more trouble.

 

ETA I recently had to do this on the engines electric fuel pump loom plug on an Isuzu engine in an ex Black prince boat which kept on letting the owner down.

Somebody will be along shortly to tell you off for soldering wires on a boat, but I think that is a good solution.