Historic boat owners - nobs?

[Guest]

I thought that was half the fun playing chicken when approacing historic craft, used to be fun when I had the barge

I remember quite well the first time I met a fully loaded coal boat, it was from memory Gosty Hill plying it's trade on the Ashby, a canal not known for its generous depth. It could have been a different boat but I think I am correct.

 

We were relatively inexperienced hire boaters at the time and as it loomed towards me it did occur to me 'WTF', does this guy think he owns the canal, why doesn't he move over a bit?

 

The penny then dropped and I moved over before he passed. I seriously doubt he had any other option other than to maintain his course. Of course when it did pass and you peered down into the fully loaded hull it was confirmed. He thanked me as he passed as he probably realised that as hire boaters what our initial thoughts might have been.

[Quinafloat]

So what did I learn from posting my question here? Firstly that the laws of physics do not apply to ex working boats. When I fill with water (at the front of the boat) the front goes down and the back goes up, similarly when I top off with diesel (at the back of the boat) the back goes down and the front goes up. It seems that this does not happen to ex working boats.

 

As regards the difficulties in steering said boats in shallow water, I have to inform you that the bow thruster was invented many years ago. It would look no more out of place than a mobile phone or LED lighting on such boats.

 

I still take my hat off to the real working boats delivering coal and diesel who seem to go about their business with an absolute minimum of fuss and bother. It is easy to believe that those ex working boat users who do not take the trouble to balance their boats have problems steering them and consequently believe that they have a right to the deep channel. Personally I will quite happily ground my boat to give you the necessary room not to ground your boat.

[Sabcat]

So what did I learn from posting my question here? Firstly that the laws of physics do not apply to ex working boats. When I fill with water (at the front of the boat) the front goes down and the back goes up, similarly when I top off with diesel (at the back of the boat) the back goes down and the front goes up. It seems that this does not happen to ex working boats.

 

As regards the difficulties in steering said boats in shallow water, I have to inform you that the bow thruster was invented many years ago. It would look no more out of place than a mobile phone or LED lighting on such boats.

 

I still take my hat off to the real working boats delivering coal and diesel who seem to go about their business with an absolute minimum of fuss and bother. It is easy to believe that those ex working boat users who do not take the trouble to balance their boats have problems steering them and consequently believe that they have a right to the deep channel. Personally I will quite happily ground my boat to give you the necessary room not to ground your boat.

 

If you added ballast to the front of a working boat, you're right, the back would come up. If it came up enough to reduce the draft to something similar to a modern boat ~2ft the uxter would be right out of the water. The boat would handle like a sack of spuds in a wheel barrow and massively difficult to stop.

[Guest]

So what did I learn from posting my question here?

Answer - nothing.

 

You are not comparing like with like.

 

The whole issue of weight distribution is completely different, plus it's not the only factor.

 

You need to re-read post #50 and post #51.

[Leo No2]

By way of illustration this is a photo of Sculptor taken just now. The uxter plate is about 3" out of the water and I believe she is drawing about 3' at the moment - that's with 2 (metric) tonnes of ballast in the form of two full IBC water containers just forward of the backend boards. When underway with the weight of the steerer on and the prop biting down a bit the uxter plate will drop to being as near as 'damn it' is to swearing level with the water. The front won't come down much - if anything. If anyone wishes to see what's really there Sculptor is being dry docked on 26/27/28-September at Braunston - do come and have a look if you are interested - we may even give you a scraper!

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Leo No2

[David Mack]

So what did I learn from posting my question here? Firstly that the laws of physics do not apply to ex working boats. When I fill with water (at the front of the boat) the front goes down and the back goes up, similarly when I top off with diesel (at the back of the boat) the back goes down and the front goes up. It seems that this does not happen to ex working boats.

If you put a load on the front of any boat, the front goes down and the back goes up (but by a lesser amount, since the average effect of the extra load must be to put the boat overall lower in the water). If you put a load in the middle of the boat it goes down equally at both ends. A (motor) working boat hold extends from near the front of the boat to a point about 3/4 of the way back, the rest of the stern end being occupied by the engine room and cabin. So if you place some load in the whole of the hold, it follows that the back-end-up effect of loading the front part of the hold is counteracted by the back-end-down effect of loading the middle, with the result that the back end stays at about the same depth.

 

A butty working boat sits pretty much level in the water when empty. Although the hold is longer, there is still a cabin at the back, so loading the hold evenly causes the boat to trim bow down. Sometimes the cargo was piled higher at the back end of the hold to counteract this effect.

 

As regards the difficulties in steering said boats in shallow water, I have to inform you that the bow thruster was invented many years ago. It would look no more out of place than a mobile phone or LED lighting on such boats.

The only real problem with steering a working boat in shallow water is that of touching the bottom. A bow thruster won't help with that.

 

I still take my hat off to the real working boats delivering coal and diesel who seem to go about their business with an absolute minimum of fuss and bother. It is easy to believe that those ex working boat users who do not take the trouble to balance their boats have problems steering them and consequently believe that they have a right to the deep channel. Personally I will quite happily ground my boat to give you the necessary room not to ground your boat.

The ex-working boat owners I know, and those I meet out on the cut don't have any more problems steering them than other boaters (and a lot less than some). There is no need for you to ground your boat to let working boats pass (loaded or unloaded). All you have to do is keep going at moderate speed, moving over slightly to one side, so that the working boat can do the same and you can pass with a few inches to spare. And as the boats pass, the natural hydrodynamics will pull your bows back towards the centre of the channel, and as the sterns pass the draw from both boats' props draws the sterns together so that both boats are now back in the centre of the channel and pointing in the right direction. Easy!

[FadeToScarlet]

So what did I learn from posting my question here? Firstly that the laws of physics do not apply to ex working boats. When I fill with water (at the front of the boat) the front goes down and the back goes up, similarly when I top off with diesel (at the back of the boat) the back goes down and the front goes up. It seems that this does not happen to ex working boats.

 

As regards the difficulties in steering said boats in shallow water, I have to inform you that the bow thruster was invented many years ago. It would look no more out of place than a mobile phone or LED lighting on such boats.

 

I still take my hat off to the real working boats delivering coal and diesel who seem to go about their business with an absolute minimum of fuss and bother. It is easy to believe that those ex working boat users who do not take the trouble to balance their boats have problems steering them and consequently believe that they have a right to the deep channel. Personally I will quite happily ground my boat to give you the necessary room not to ground your boat.

A bow thruster would not help when steering boats in shallower water. The effect (Bernoulli effect I believe) is far, far stronger. Anything powerful enough to push the fore end straight would just push the boat you were trying to pass over towards the shallow parts on their side; much better to steer competently.

 

And yes, you could ballast the fore end of an empty boat to decrease the draught at the stern end, but then as other people have said, the prop would be out of the water which would make stopping very interesting.

[Laurence Hogg]

So what did I learn from posting my question here? Firstly that the laws of physics do not apply to ex working boats. When I fill with water (at the front of the boat) the front goes down and the back goes up, similarly when I top off with diesel (at the back of the boat) the back goes down and the front goes up. It seems that this does not happen to ex working boats.

 

As regards the difficulties in steering said boats in shallow water, I have to inform you that the bow thruster was invented many years ago. It would look no more out of place than a mobile phone or LED lighting on such boats.

 

I still take my hat off to the real working boats delivering coal and diesel who seem to go about their business with an absolute minimum of fuss and bother. It is easy to believe that those ex working boat users who do not take the trouble to balance their boats have problems steering them and consequently believe that they have a right to the deep channel. Personally I will quite happily ground my boat to give you the necessary room not to ground your boat.

 

Don't think you learned much at all!

Did you not bother to read my post #75 re the swim differences?

You don't need bow thrusters at all just a good knowledge of how your craft handles.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

If you put a load on the front of any boat, the front goes down and the back goes up (but by a lesser amount, since the average effect of the extra load must be to put the boat overall lower in the water). If you put a load in the middle of the boat it goes down equally at both ends. A (motor) working boat hold extends from near the front of the boat to a point about 3/4 of the way back, the rest of the stern end being occupied by the engine room and cabin. So if you place some load in the whole of the hold, it follows that the back-end-up effect of loading the front part of the hold is counteracted by the back-end-down effect of loading the middle, with the result that the back end stays at about the same depth.

 

A butty working boat sits pretty much level in the water when empty. Although the hold is longer, there is still a cabin at the back, so loading the hold evenly causes the boat to trim bow down. Sometimes the cargo was piled higher at the back end of the hold to counteract this effect.

 

 

The only real problem with steering a working boat in shallow water is that of touching the bottom. A bow thruster won't help with that.

 

 

The ex-working boat owners I know, and those I meet out on the cut don't have any more problems steering them than other boaters (and a lot less than some). There is no need for you to ground your boat to let working boats pass (loaded or unloaded). All you have to do is keep going at moderate speed, moving over slightly to one side, so that the working boat can do the same and you can pass with a few inches to spare. And as the boats pass, the natural hydrodynamics will pull your bows back towards the centre of the channel, and as the sterns pass the draw from both boats' props draws the sterns together so that both boats are now back in the centre of the channel and pointing in the right direction. Easy!

All makes sense.

what happens if there's a difference in speed of the two boats?

[Sabcat]

Bow thrusters are strange things, or rather the people with them are strange. The winding hole on the Cannock extension is actually the entrance to a dry dock, there's always boats moored by it, sometimes 4 abreast. Last week some people went past on a boat and then a few minutes later came past again. Backwards. I was on my roof at the time cutting off my pigeon box, as you do. There was a chap on the back of the boat, steering and a woman walking along the tow path holding a rope attached to the back of the boat. I asked them if there were boats moored by the winding hole and they said there were, someone had offered to move them (most unusual) but they were happy to back up to the grove to turn. The boat, had bow thrusters, I know this because they were using them, or at least turning them on and off.

 

Not only were they unable to wind despite having bow thrusters, they couldn't go backwards either. Of course the reality is they could do both with or without bow thrusters, they just didn't believe they could.

[Steilsteven]

So what did I learn from posting my question here? Firstly that the laws of physics do not apply to ex working boats. When I fill with water (at the front of the boat) the front goes down and the back goes up, similarly when I top off with diesel (at the back of the boat) the back goes down and the front goes up. It seems that this does not happen to ex working boats.

 

As regards the difficulties in steering said boats in shallow water, I have to inform you that the bow thruster was invented many years ago. It would look no more out of place than a mobile phone or LED lighting on such boats.

 

I still take my hat off to the real working boats delivering coal and diesel who seem to go about their business with an absolute minimum of fuss and bother. It is easy to believe that those ex working boat users who do not take the trouble to balance their boats have problems steering them and consequently believe that they have a right to the deep channel. Personally I will quite happily ground my boat to give you the necessary room not to ground your boat.

Bow thrusters are not intended for steering or for getting off the mud, they're intended to assist with mooring in tight spaces. Where would you fit one that would be any use on an empty w.b.?

 

If you'd really like to learn what it's like to handle a working boat ( empty and loaded ) I suggest you contact the Narrow Boat Trust who will be glad to welcome you to the delights or otherwise. That way you'll not only understand what's happening when you encounter one, you'll ( hopefully )also improve your overall boating skills.

 

Keith

[alan_fincher]

That is all understood, but we draw 2'8" static, and experience exactly the same control issues if the stern starts to go aground. It would therefore be "arrogant" for a historic boater to presume that the are the only ones with depth / control issues.

I don't think anybody has.

 

It is however true that the majority of ex working boats are by design deep draughted, so you can't easily own a shallow draughted one.

 

The purchaser of a modern boat has a choice about whether to go for a deep draughted one, or a shallower draughted one. If they buy the latter, they will, in general, find they need pulling off the mud less often.

 

To me it seems an odd choice to deliberately have a modern boat with a deep draught, if you intend to use a modern diesel that doesn't need a lot of space to swing a big prop under the counter. If you go for a historic engine in a modern boat, it is something you really have to live with, but there are few advantages in making deep draughted a boat that has no real need to be. (All "in my opinion").

[Ian Mac]

The problem I see most of the time, is when other boats come to pass us (we draw 3'4" at the back - static) is that they move far to far over. As David MacK says the art is to pass with about 3" to 5" gap between the hulls, its really good when another boat does this as you both stay in the channel and you suck each other back into the middle as you pass, its really great. So when I approach another boat I move over just less than 4ft and expect the other boat to do a similar move, an awful lot seem to move over at least 7ft if not more, then curse and swear at us. We passed two boats on the Erewash recently, they had just come up a lock together, the first one went headed for the bank and swear at us, the other slipped by 4iches away poking fun at the accompanying boat, we were just drifting along out of gear, as Laurence said hovering in the channel.. Time for proper MCA steering testing of captains me thinks.

[alan_fincher]

And to be fair to Alan, it was less the words in his post that I was alluding to, but more the concept of historic boats "demanding" channel priority which he only hinted at.

That is bollocks isn't it.

 

I made no hint of demanding it, only pointed out that they simply have no choice about not being able to get as close to the edges in many places as a modern boat can.

 

In general people operating ex working boats will make every effort to move over when someone comes the other way, but this is best left until as late as possible, because the sooner you do it, the more likely you are to stick your back end on the mud, and see your bow swing straight into the path of the oncoming boat.

 

Unfortunately "leaving it as late as possible" is often seen as aggressive behaviour, because those coming the other way do not know enough about the subject to actually realise that the working boat steerer is doing the right thing, (exactly what working boat steerers always did, when what they were passing was invariably each other).

Edited August 18, 2014 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

So what did I learn from posting my question here?

My vote would be "very little".

 

Edited to add, (hopefully a bit more helpfully!).....

 

We don't bite, and will generally talk to anyone, (even Hudson owners at a real push).

 

You may have zero interest in ex-working boats - that's fine - but we all still have to share the same canal system, so it is actually helpful to know something about the topics that relate mainly to boats that are deep draughted.

 

I'll spend all day trying to explain things to someone, if it helps, but a face to face conversation where you can actually point at bits when explaining often makes it easier.

Edited August 18, 2014 by alan_fincher

[Magic Potion]

I don't own a historic boat. I've never steered one either but even I, in my limited experience, know they're deeper draughted. Therefore they need more water under their back end irresspective of whether they're loaded or not. Just don't slow right down to pass them, or pull right over. I aim to pass them at no more than a foot apart at a sensible speed. It's worked for me so far anyway.

[nicknorman]

I don't think anybody has.

 

It is however true that the majority of ex working boats are by design deep draughted, so you can't easily own a shallow draughted one.

 

The purchaser of a modern boat has a choice about whether to go for a deep draughted one, or a shallower draughted one. If they buy the latter, they will, in general, find they need pulling off the mud less often.

 

To me it seems an odd choice to deliberately have a modern boat with a deep draught, if you intend to use a modern diesel that doesn't need a lot of space to swing a big prop under the counter. If you go for a historic engine in a modern boat, it is something you really have to live with, but there are few advantages in making deep draughted a boat that has no real need to be. (All "in my opinion").

That logic is clearly flawed because on the one hand you are casting aspersions on someone's decision to have a deep drafted modern boat vs a shallow drafted one, whilst completely disregarding someone else's choice to buy a historic boat instead of a new one. In both cases, it is the owner's choice but once again it seems that the historic boat owner's choices are taboo and must not be questioned.

 

I would have thought you understood the advantages of deep draft but in case not, I will elucidate:

 

Deep draft positives: boat unaffected by crosswinds. Larger prop is more efficient, which is particularly noticeable in terms of stopping distance. Taller rudder is possible - ie more rudder area without the rudder protruding behind too much - to give more positive steering.

 

Negatives: goes aground more easily when out of the channel, but then there is often someone passing to help tow off when competitive exuberance has resulted in a solid grounding. Have to be slightly more picky on choice of mooring if you want to get into the side.

 

For me, the positives clearly outweigh the negatives.

[nicknorman]

That is bollocks isn't it.

 

I made no hint of demanding it ...

So if an HB is coming the other way dead in centre channel, are they demanding that space or merely politely requesting it?

 

Anyway, since I have no problem passing close to opposite direction boats I don't think I have often felt offended by the position of opposite direction HBs. The only ones that have offended are those that thunder past at high power settings thus lowering the local water level to the point where they are not quite aground in the centre channel, but we, having had to move over a bit, are.

[X Alan W]

By way of illustration this is a photo of Sculptor taken just now. The uxter plate is about 3" out of the water and I believe she is drawing about 3' at the moment - that's with 2 (metric) tonnes of ballast in the form of two full IBC water containers just forward of the backend boards. When underway with the weight of the steerer on and the prop biting down a bit the uxter plate will drop to being as near as 'damn it' is to swearing level with the water. The front won't come down much - if anything. If anyone wishes to see what's really there Sculptor is being dry docked on 26/27/28-September at Braunston - do come and have a look if you are interested - we may even give you a scraper!

 

With a working/ex working boat ballasted to the same set up as in the photo; on exiting an empty lock more so than in open canal you would have to have a good bit of way on to "suck" the counter onto/into the water to get the boat to perform,up to that point it would be similar to a big egg wisk thrashing about under the counter On selecting reverse the counter would pop up & same egg wisk effect, stopping would be minimal at best. To obtain the required ( fanhold,fanalt, grip) with an empty motor we used to run water into the back end to get the counter down to water level or near, If working a pair this was an absolute, as the butty has no (brakes) stopping power either loaded or empty, so if you had no motor stopping power it could be a some what fun & games trying to come to a halt. Some ex working motors had pieces of approx 6" wide,3" elm bottoms fixed under the outer edge of the counter which allowed the counter to be 3" out of the water but still have the performance of a flat on counter with 3"less depth of water required to float. Another thing that used to happen with a boat loaded ( down by the head by a couple of inches ) fore end deeper, would follow the deeper channel much better than an empty boat, not sure it would be the same today as there are very few loaded boats to gouge out the channel

Edited August 18, 2014 by X Alan W

[Guest]

So if an HB is coming the other way dead in centre channel, are they demanding that space or merely politely requesting it?

What would you expect them to do, hail you over a 'tannoy' shouting

 

"excuse me old bean we need to stick to the middle as much as we can, would you mind awfully just moving aside a tad, thank-you very much"

 

Surely it's incumbent upon us to also understand why they are where they are?

[cheshire~rose]

Generally speaking people who steer historic boats are unlikely to have never steered more modern shallower boats. Most steerers of historic boat will have a great deal of experience steering all manner of different vessels.

 

One thing that I know Alan Fincher has experienced as have we,and I suspect many other people who steer historic boats; a large number of "other" boaters treat us differently depending what vessel we are steering. This is based on actual exchanges we have had with specific individuals out on the cut who have been cheerful and friendly towards us when we are in our own modern clone boat and yet have been at best a bit "off" and at worst positively aggressive towards us when steering Python.

 

I would pose a question to everyone who reads this thread, it is a rhetorical question and not one aimed at any one contributor to the thread so far.

 

When you see a historic boat approaching have you already decided they are going to demand the channel and treat them as is they are arrogant? Or might you think it is it just a possibility that the fact they are holding course is that they are requesting that channel in which case you will more than likely recieve a big smile and a thank you as they pass

 

Behaviour breeds behaviour

[nicknorman]

What would you expect them to do, hail you over a 'tannoy' shouting"excuse me old bean we need to stick to the middle as much as we can, would you mind awfully just moving aside a tad, thank-you very much"Surely it's incumbent upon us to also understand why they are where they are?

So since "asking" is not feasible as you say, we are left with "demanding", which was rather my point.

[cheshire~rose]

So since "asking" is not feasible as you say, we are left with "demanding", which was rather my point.

 

Asking IS possible. It is about people reading "the language" of the boat and it's position in the channel. Just as a car waiting to turn out of a side street into a busy lane of traffic may edge forward a little to "ask" motorists on the main road to give way and let them out - a demanding motorist will just pull right out causing other motorists to brake so as not to collide.

 

You do not have to use words to make a request

[Guest]

So since "asking" is not feasible as you say, we are left with "demanding", which was rather my point.

More nonsense - you are not on form today Nick.

 

It's neither, it is just how it is, they have no choice we (or rather most of us) have.

 

We can get all uppity and think 'look at this arrogant fool hogging the centre' or we can think 'hang on a sec. that's one of them big Woolwich thingies' I know why they are there', and move aside, no drama, no problem.

[nicknorman]

Generally speaking people who steer historic boats are unlikely to have never steered more modern shallower boats. Most steerers of historic boat will have a great deal of experience steering all manner of different vessels.

 

One thing that I know Alan Fincher has experienced as have we,and I suspect many other people who steer historic boats; a large number of "other" boaters treat us differently depending what vessel we are steering. This is based on actual exchanges we have had with specific individuals out on the cut who have been cheerful and friendly towards us when we are in our own modern clone boat and yet have been at best a bit "off" and at worst positively aggressive towards us when steering Python.

 

I would pose a question to everyone who reads this thread, it is a rhetorical question and not one aimed at any one contributor to the thread so far.

 

When you see a historic boat approaching have you already decided they are going to demand the channel and treat them as is they are arrogant? Or might you think it is it just a possibility that the fact they are holding course is that they are requesting that channel in which case you will more than likely recieve a big smile and a thank you as they pass

 

Behaviour breeds behaviour

Your last sentence - yes totally agree. Your penultimate sentence, well if only it were generally true. For me "hogging the channel" is not really a big deal, but it is the looking straight ahead as they pass, or possibly regarding one as something discovered on one's shoe after a careless excursion onto the towpath, that offends me. Certainly there are rude, unfriendly and aloof folk driving modern boats, but as a percentage I do feel there are more driving HBs. This is what prompted my genuine reaction to the "pleasant experience" of passing my OP boats, which to be honest was one of slight surprise to find the operators to have none of those negative attributes I just mentioned. Whereas of course that should really be the norm.

More nonsense - you are not on form today Nick.It's neither, it is just how it is, they have no choice we (or rather most of us) have.We can get all uppity and think 'look at this arrogant fool hogging the centre' or we can think 'hang on a sec. that's one of them big Woolwich thingies' I know why they are there', and move aside, no drama, no problem.

I'm probably not on form because as I keep repeating, I don't really have an issue with "middle channel hogging". Before you distracted the thread my point was a more subtle one about the need to avoid being perceived as "I'm a special case, needing special treatment, very important and everybody else will just have to get out of my way, it's my birthright". Maybe it was too subtle for you?