Visitor moorings at Saltaire

[Guest]

I've explained why it was not clear.

 

Have you thought of becoming a member of one of the organisations that meets with CRT or works with them to obtain funding for projects? If you are supportive you might find them asking for your help and pestering you to do things. There is a lot that has to change within the Trust but it has some good people who need to be allowed to get on with doing their job.

I have actually met with a senior staff member from CRT, as part of the series of meetings facilitated by Cotswoldsman last year. Unfortunately those meetings fizzled out in the run up to Sally Ash's retirement from the trust. Those were an ideal forum where issues like this could have been (and indeed were) discussed direct.

 

Given the northern part of the system is set for the first time to get a significant improvement in funding I am not unduly concerned about that aspect and it's not really relevant anyway to the placement of such notices,as it's not a funding issue.

 

If the meetings with CRT had continued I would certainly still be attending them subject to the frequency and location given that by their very nature they take place many many mikes away from where I live and it involves considerable expense for me to do so.

Edited August 24, 2014 by The Dog House

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

Deleted best to leave the past in the past. It was a post about the meetings with CRT but time has moved on

Edited August 24, 2014 by cotswoldsman

[mango]

I have actually met with a senior staff member from CRT, as part of the series of meetings facilitated by Cotswoldsman last year. Unfortunately those meetings fizzled out in the run up to Sally Ash's retirement from the trust. Those were an ideal forum where issues like this could have been (and indeed were) discussed direct.

 

Given the northern part of the system is set for the first time to get a significant improvement in funding I am not unduly concerned about that aspect and it's not really relevant anyway to the placement of such notices,as it's not a funding issue.

 

If the meetings with CRT had continued I would certainly still be attending them subject to the frequency and location given that by their very nature they take place many many mikes away from where I live and it involves considerable expense for me to do so.

Have you thought about working for a waterways organisation? For many waterway enthusiasts, getting involved in this way gives them a real opportunity to achieve something worthwhile. Unfortunately, it can take a lot of time and money attending meetings.

[Hawkmoth]

I had not realised that you are based in Saltaire, never mind on the L&L Canal. Or is the is bit of canal not your 'front road'?

 

I'm afraid that what you are expecting is totally impractical and your views are likely to be listened to via an established organisation or possibly at one of CRT's customer service meetings.

 

I acknowledge my views are probably not representative of many boaters on this forum but I think I'm the realist and not the one who is going to be disappointed.

I think part of the problem is that you come across as someone who just roles over when a new rule is made. You seem to see the other person's point of view far too clearly.

I do get the impression that CRT are not sufficiently pro boater at present. I know you say that the ordinary tax payer has an investment in the canals via the government subsidy, but on a per head basis it's tiny. We, on the other hand put a substantial part of our income into our preferred way of life.

We are seeing tow paths seemingly turned over to urban terrorists (cyclists). Moorings being restricted because someone moved in and doesn't like boats. Infrastructure seemingly declining through lack of maintenance. No wonder boaters are frustrated.

Yes, I agree that there are a minority of thoughtless, even antisocial people in boats, but CRT seems to bring out the hammer when a gentle knock on the door would have sufficed.

Bob

[Guest]

Have you thought about working for a waterways organisation? For many waterway enthusiasts, getting involved in this way gives them a real opportunity to achieve something worthwhile. Unfortunately, it can take a lot of time and money attending meetings.

I have no idea what that has to do with the notices issue.

[mango]

I think part of the problem is that you come across as someone who just roles over when a new rule is made. You seem to see the other person's point of view far too clearly.

I do get the impression that CRT are not sufficiently pro boater at present. I know you say that the ordinary tax payer has an investment in the canals via the government subsidy, but on a per head basis it's tiny. We, on the other hand put a substantial part of our income into our preferred way of life.

We are seeing tow paths seemingly turned over to urban terrorists (cyclists). Moorings being restricted because someone moved in and doesn't like boats. Infrastructure seemingly declining through lack of maintenance. No wonder boaters are frustrated.

Yes, I agree that there are a minority of thoughtless, even antisocial people in boats, but CRT seems to bring out the hammer when a gentle knock on the door would have sufficed.

Bob

All I am trying to do is point out that CRT has responsibility to people other than boaters. Having had several unpleasant encounters with cyclists including a fracture, I'm not that keen on sharing a towpath with them, but successive governments have been keen to promote cycling. At least it has been made clear that pedestrians take priority – no more two tings and expect everyone to jump out of the way. We all benefit from keeping towpaths in good condition but it's probably been campaigning by cyclists that has helped achieved funding for repairs. Anglers can be a pain at times but they far outnumber boaters. Some of them are anti-boating but others are very supportive and could probably be recruited to help with canal maintenance. I've met anglers that have got involved with activities such as litter picks and pulling supermarket trollies out of canals. I am a keen boater and if I think something is wrong I challenge it.

 

In this discussion there has been mention of a resident who clearly does not like boats. I wonder if there are others. We don't know. It is reasonable to request that overnight mooring is reinstated, but the request is far more likely to be listened to if it is made via an organisation with which CRT already has a dialogue. Perhaps the L&LCS may be prepared to take this up.

[mango]

I have no idea what that has to do with the notices issue.

If you don't want to devote time and effort in working with an organisation dedicated to improving our waterways then I don't think there is much chance of being listened to as an individual.

 

Last year we had a lot of individuals wanting more representation for continuous cruisers and complaining that they were not listened to and not represented by any organisation. Some of them got together and formed the ACC. That organisation is much more likely to be listened to than individuals, particularly if it can help CRT deal with the problem of those CCs that don't comply with the rules.

Edited August 24, 2014 by mango

[Guest]

If you don't want to devote time and effort towards improving our waterways then I don't think there is much chance of being listened to as an individual.

 

Last year we had a lot of individuals wanting more representation for continuous cruisers and complaining that they were not listened to and not represented by any organisation. Some of them got together and formed the ACC. That organisation is much more likely to be listened to than individuals, particularly if it can help CRT deal with the problem of those CCs that don't comply with the rules.

Given they were pretty much ignored that last time they raised the issue at Greenberfield I can understand their reluctance to do so (But I cant speak for them of course)

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=69217&page=8#entry1380950

If you don't want to devote time and effort in working with an organisation dedicated to improving our waterways then I don't think there is much chance of being listened to as an individual.

 

Last year we had a lot of individuals wanting more representation for continuous cruisers and complaining that they were not listened to and not represented by any organisation. Some of them got together and formed the ACC. That organisation is much more likely to be listened to than individuals, particularly if it can help CRT deal with the problem of those CCs that don't comply with the rules.

You referred to 'working for' an organisation, which to me indicates being employed by one hence my lack of understanding as to your point.

 

I don't think I have ruled out my working along side others including other organisations have I?

[mango]

Given they were pretty much ignored that last time they raised the issue at Greenberfield I can understand their reluctance to do so (But I cant speak for them of course)

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=69217&page=8#entry1380950

I would have thought that it would be best to contact the local CRT Heritage Officer and if that is unsuccessful to go to Nigel Crowe, who leads the team. I don't know what involvement Pluto has with the L&LCS, but the approach should be made by a trustee of the society on behalf of the society to maximise the chance of getting a useful response.

 

I certainly believe that the L&LCS should be consulted regarding management of the canal.

[Guest]

I would have thought that it would be best to contact the local CRT Heritage Officer and if that is unsuccessful to go to Nigel Crowe, who leads the team. I don't know what involvement Pluto has with the L&LCS, but the approach should be made by a trustee of the society on behalf of the society to maximise the chance of getting a useful response.

 

I certainly believe that the L&LCS should be consulted regarding management of the canal.

Probably because he doesn't use his real name on here. I will leave him to explain his 'involvement' with L&LCS if he sees this, needless to say I'm pretty sure he will be fully aware of the required links.

[mango]

Given they were pretty much ignored that last time they raised the issue at Greenberfield I can understand their reluctance to do so (But I cant speak for them of course)

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=69217&page=8#entry1380950

 

You referred to 'working for' an organisation, which to me indicates being employed by one hence my lack of understanding as to your point.

 

I don't think I have ruled out my working along side others including other organisations have I?

There are many waterways trusts and societies run by people who are passionate about waterways. Most of the work is entirely voluntary, with paid employees an exception. They can be general interest or focus mainly on restoration or boats (that seems to be the case with L&LCS, judging by their website). The opportunity is there if you want to get involved and have the opportunity of making your mark.

 

I forgot to post a link about the CRT Heritage Team earlier: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/heritage/meet-the-team

[Guest]

There are many waterways trusts and societies run by people who are passionate about waterways. Most of the work is entirely voluntary, with paid employees an exception.

Indeed I am well aware of this but thanks anyway.

[mango]

I've just realised why I cannot remember about moorings in Saltaire despite having visited two years ago. I moored the boat above the Five Rise, had a long chat with Barry and took the train into Saltaire.

 

I will be interested to know how this develops.

[Mrs Trackman]

It was your analogy with yellow lines in youour front road that was confusing.

 

I would hope that changes in mooring arrangements were notified, perhaps along with stoppages, etc.

I am unaware of ever being notified of changes to mooring arrangements and in the case of saltaire even the bank staff were completely unaware.

[mango]

I am unaware of ever being notified of changes to mooring arrangements and in the case of saltaire even the bank staff were completely unaware.

It would be very useful if this sort of information was included in the periodic Notices and Stoppages information on the CRT website, and circulated to anyone signed up to receive updates.

[Pluto]

All I am trying to do is point out that CRT has responsibility to people other than boaters. Having had several unpleasant encounters with cyclists including a fracture, I'm not that keen on sharing a towpath with them, but successive governments have been keen to promote cycling. At least it has been made clear that pedestrians take priority – no more two tings and expect everyone to jump out of the way. We all benefit from keeping towpaths in good condition but it's probably been campaigning by cyclists that has helped achieved funding for repairs. Anglers can be a pain at times but they far outnumber boaters. Some of them are anti-boating but others are very supportive and could probably be recruited to help with canal maintenance. I've met anglers that have got involved with activities such as litter picks and pulling supermarket trollies out of canals. I am a keen boater and if I think something is wrong I challenge it.

 

In this discussion there has been mention of a resident who clearly does not like boats. I wonder if there are others. We don't know. It is reasonable to request that overnight mooring is reinstated, but the request is far more likely to be listened to if it is made via an organisation with which CRT already has a dialogue. Perhaps the L&LCS may be prepared to take this up.

The L&LCS has very little direct contact with CRT, although we are trying to develop a joint approach to the 200th anniversary of the canal opening throughout in 2016. The society is perhaps more involved with the promotion of the canal and its heritage to the general public, and there are enough boat clubs along the canal who should be representing boaters. That said, some of our committee do attend the various CRT user meetings to suggest improvements for boating, though it was suggested by a previous canal manager that meetings with the society about specific problems were, they considered, not a useful use of time.

[mango]

The L&LCS has very little direct contact with CRT, although we are trying to develop a joint approach to the 200th anniversary of the canal opening throughout in 2016. The society is perhaps more involved with the promotion of the canal and its heritage to the general public, and there are enough boat clubs along the canal who should be representing boaters. That said, some of our committee do attend the various CRT user meetings to suggest improvements for boating, though it was suggested by a previous canal manager that meetings with the society about specific problems were, they considered, not a useful use of time.

I am disappointed that L&LCS has little contact with CRT because they have considerable involvement with other societies and trusts. Working together on projects such as the bicentenary celebrations and bringing in representatives from councils keen to promote tourism could be a good way of giving the society some input regarding management of the canal. I had not realised that the society is now a charity, and that's something worth promoting. Another way of establishing a good relationship could be volunteering, anything from tackling the years of neglect or via CRT's scheme for adoption of lengths of canal. Anything that can cut CRT's spending on routine maintenance could make money available for other work such as provision of additional moorings. Places on the North West Waterway Partnership will be available before long, though I think that's more to do with strategic planning for the Region's waterways. Chantelle Seaborn has been in post for at least a year and might be happier than her predecessor to communicate with the society.

 

I don't imagine that CRT has the resources to keep in touch with individual boat clubs (or any other local single interest groups) but AWCC certainly represents affiliated clubs on issues related to boating.

 

It would be good to see even past issues of your magazine on the L&LCS website so that we can find out what's happening.

[Pluto]

I am disappointed that L&LCS has little contact with CRT because they have considerable involvement with other societies and trusts. Working together on projects such as the bicentenary celebrations and bringing in representatives from councils keen to promote tourism could be a good way of giving the society some input regarding management of the canal. I had not realised that the society is now a charity, and that's something worth promoting. Another way of establishing a good relationship could be volunteering, anything from tackling the years of neglect or via CRT's scheme for adoption of lengths of canal. Anything that can cut CRT's spending on routine maintenance could make money available for other work such as provision of additional moorings. Places on the North West Waterway Partnership will be available before long, though I think that's more to do with strategic planning for the Region's waterways. Chantelle Seaborn has been in post for at least a year and might be happier than her predecessor to communicate with the society.

 

I don't imagine that CRT has the resources to keep in touch with individual boat clubs (or any other local single interest groups) but AWCC certainly represents affiliated clubs on issues related to boating.

 

It would be good to see even past issues of your magazine on the L&LCS website so that we can find out what's happening.

Your bit about volunteering is just a load of bo**ocks, as the Society is already undertaking a large amount of voluntary work in operating Kennet and in attempting to fit in supporting local L&LC events. We just do not have enough time to 'support' CRT, other than by the work we already do to fulfil our own charitable objectives. The problem is that the work done by the Society is undervalued. As volunteers already fully engaged in promoting the L&LC and its heritage, it is ill-judged to suggest that it is us who should be putting in more time in developing links with CRT. I certainly have no additional volunteer time that I can afford to give, having just spent three days at the Burnley Canal Festival, more time than any individual CRT person, as well as attending Festival committee meetings throughout the year, and time at home arranging the Society's stall, added to which is the time taken working for Inland Waterways International and for the Boat Museum Society. And that is just my canal-related volunteering.

 

Our website does have a calendar which list the things we do and where Kennet is, and I have been talking the Chantelle about using it to give some co-ordination to events on the L&LC. There are older Society newsletters available from my website. However, if you want to see our recent newsletters, why not join and support what we are doing. It only costs £10.

[mango]

Your bit about volunteering is just a load of bo**ocks, as the Society is already undertaking a large amount of voluntary work in operating Kennet and in attempting to fit in supporting local L&LC events. We just do not have enough time to 'support' CRT, other than by the work we already do to fulfil our own charitable objectives. The problem is that the work done by the Society is undervalued. As volunteers already fully engaged in promoting the L&LC and its heritage, it is ill-judged to suggest that it is us who should be putting in more time in developing links with CRT. I certainly have no additional volunteer time that I can afford to give, having just spent three days at the Burnley Canal Festival, more time than any individual CRT person, as well as attending Festival committee meetings throughout the year, and time at home arranging the Society's stall, added to which is the time taken working for Inland Waterways International and for the Boat Museum Society. And that is just my canal-related volunteering.

 

Our website does have a calendar which list the things we do and where Kennet is, and I have been talking the Chantelle about using it to give some co-ordination to events on the L&LC. There are older Society newsletters available from my website. However, if you want to see our recent newsletters, why not join and support what we are doing. It only costs £10.

Charming. I can appreciate that Kennet is a big undertaking but some societies have volunteers doing different things and there is no reason why you should do any more. I'm just speaking as one of a group that has put in a great deal of effort over years to win the support of BW/CRT and is trying to move forward from meetings, emails and phone calls towards more progress. I do appreciate that it is very difficult to get volunteers these days, particularly young ones, and that sometimes if you try and delegate jobs you often land up doing them yourselves.

[MyLady]

I'm afraid I don't recognise a reason why this issue has generated the amount of heat it has...

 

1. The moorings in question are f'ing awful: they are between two enormous 19th century mill buildings that funnel the wind so that it can be almost impossible to get off (I stopped there, briefly - I'd hoped - to get some things I wanted from inside the boat, but without some help from German (I think) tourists, I could have been there still, not because I wanted to exceed the permitted mooring time, but because the wind between the buildings prevented me from leaving) - I was single-handed at the time. They have good mooring bollards, but little else to recommend them.

 

2. There are some lovely moorings a few hundred yards away near the Salts Sports Club. We stopped there for a few days to watch a cricket match - and received a warm welcome from their club bar. During our stay we caught the train home (Keighley) but paused to look at the mill where I'd worked in school holidays, so I know from personal experience that the towpath there is not only a perfectly good place to moor, but also within easy walking distance of the centre of Saltaire - I can't walk far due to a fairly recent stroke, plus polymyalgia.

 

So why all the fuss? The restricted mooring aren't worth using and there's a better alternative nearby.

 

Roger (who was there a matter of months ago)

 

 

[Derek Porteous]

I'm afraid I don't recognise a reason why this issue has generated the amount of heat it has...

 

1. The moorings in question are f'ing awful: they are between two enormous 19th century mill buildings that funnel the wind so that it can be almost impossible to get off (I stopped there, briefly - I'd hoped - to get some things I wanted from inside the boat, but without some help from German (I think) tourists, I could have been there still, not because I wanted to exceed the permitted mooring time, but because the wind between the buildings prevented me from leaving) - I was single-handed at the time. They have good mooring bollards, but little else to recommend them.

 

2. There are some lovely moorings a few hundred yards away near the Salts Sports Club. We stopped there for a few days to watch a cricket match - and received a warm welcome from their club bar. During our stay we caught the train home (Keighley) but paused to look at the mill where I'd worked in school holidays, so I know from personal experience that the towpath there is not only a perfectly good place to moor, but also within easy walking distance of the centre of Saltaire - I can't walk far due to a fairly recent stroke, plus polymyalgia.

 

So why all the fuss? The restricted mooring aren't worth using and there's a better alternative nearby.

 

Roger (who was there a matter of months ago)

 

Good point, Roger.

 

However the boaters who do not know the area will automatically head for the official moorings, and then be confronted with the news that they are not welcome to stay and go for an evening meal. If they are heading east they have no alternative than to move on without a lot of alternative overnight moorings. We tried to get into the bank both before and after the moorings between the mills. It is possible but a hop, skip and jump (or a gangplank) is required to get ashore. Perhaps additional signage of the area you mention would be the solution. Still begs the question though why the designated moorings are a "no go" area after 6 hours or 6pm, which ever comes first!

[Guest]

Good point, Roger.

 

However the boaters who do not know the area will automatically head for the official moorings, and then be confronted with the news that they are not welcome to stay and go for an evening meal. If they are heading east they have no alternative than to move on without a lot of alternative overnight moorings. We tried to get into the bank both before and after the moorings between the mills. It is possible but a hop, skip and jump (or a gangplank) is required to get ashore. Perhaps additional signage of the area you mention would be the solution. Still begs the question though why the designated moorings are a "no go" area after 6 hours or 6pm, which ever comes first!

Curious indeed that the signage doesn't refer to the alternatives being suggested. I do agree with your point about people turning up and then being made to feel unwelcome and moving on.

 

The restrictions at Saltaire VM's aren't (as far as I can see) even referred to on the CRT web site or the (abysmal) interactive map so for anybody not familiar with the site they wont even be aware until they actually arrive.

[jonathanA]

Best of luck with getting dredging done to allow boats to moor alongside the towpath. It's not a huge job, especially if it can be done from the towpath rather than by boat.

 

I find it very sad that boaters are ignoring official signs. Many of us try to be responsible boaters but a growing number choose to comply with only those rules that suit them. The best examples are the number of overstayers or moorings and continuous cruisers that don't comply with the rules.

 

The Canal & River Trust does consider residents and has the unenviable task of trying to achieve sensible compromises between residents and boaters, e.g. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/news/new-plans-to-help-boaters-and-residents-get-along-in-islington

 

Yes me too, but and its a big but 'I was only following orders' is the cry of the criminally stupid and is not accepted as a defence for not using your brains/common sense by most legal systems... if a sign is pointless / stupid it deserves to be ignored. To be fair when I stopped at Saltaire, the sign was more ambiguous than the current one and didn't actually say no overnight mooring..

 

 

By all means discuss this with the Trust but by ignoring their notices you are contributing to their problems and deserve to be treated with contempt. If boaters had been considerate in the first place, all these signs would be unnecessary.

 

errant nonsense !

 

I'm afraid I don't recognise a reason why this issue has generated the amount of heat it has...

 

1. The moorings in question are f'ing awful: they are between two enormous 19th century mill buildings that funnel the wind so that it can be almost impossible to get off (I stopped there, briefly - I'd hoped - to get some things I wanted from inside the boat, but without some help from German (I think) tourists, I could have been there still, not because I wanted to exceed the permitted mooring time, but because the wind between the buildings prevented me from leaving) - I was single-handed at the time. They have good mooring bollards, but little else to recommend them.

 

2. There are some lovely moorings a few hundred yards away near the Salts Sports Club. We stopped there for a few days to watch a cricket match - and received a warm welcome from their club bar. During our stay we caught the train home (Keighley) but paused to look at the mill where I'd worked in school holidays, so I know from personal experience that the towpath there is not only a perfectly good place to moor, but also within easy walking distance of the centre of Saltaire - I can't walk far due to a fairly recent stroke, plus polymyalgia.

 

So why all the fuss? The restricted mooring aren't worth using and there's a better alternative nearby.

 

Roger (who was there a matter of months ago)

 

 

 

my recollection are that these 'good moorings' are just to the rear the not so attractive ice cream boat and there is only space for a couple of boats at best.

 

one thing that is clear from this thread is that Saltaire deserves some better visitor moorings...

 

I guess until that happens some people will have to decide to make a judgement call about whether to use the moorings between the mills (the offside one appears to be industrial and the towpath side is at least partly occupied by the NHS)

[Robbo]

I'm afraid I don't recognise a reason why this issue has generated the amount of heat it has...

 

1. The moorings in question are f'ing awful: they are between two enormous 19th century mill buildings that funnel the wind so that it can be almost impossible to get off (I stopped there, briefly - I'd hoped - to get some things I wanted from inside the boat, but without some help from German (I think) tourists, I could have been there still, not because I wanted to exceed the permitted mooring time, but because the wind between the buildings prevented me from leaving) - I was single-handed at the time. They have good mooring bollards, but little else to recommend them.

 

2. There are some lovely moorings a few hundred yards away near the Salts Sports Club. We stopped there for a few days to watch a cricket match - and received a warm welcome from their club bar. During our stay we caught the train home (Keighley) but paused to look at the mill where I'd worked in school holidays, so I know from personal experience that the towpath there is not only a perfectly good place to moor, but also within easy walking distance of the centre of Saltaire - I can't walk far due to a fairly recent stroke, plus polymyalgia.

 

So why all the fuss? The restricted mooring aren't worth using and there's a better alternative nearby.

 

Roger (who was there a matter of months ago)

 

 

 

The fuss is that CRT spent money on nice moorings at Saltaire that are a good length and can hold a good number of boats (5-6), that can't be fully used due to a minority resident group that shouts a lot at CRT, the same ones that complain about the Mill opposite making Industrial noises during the day (who have thought a mill would make noises!). The moorings at Shipley can only hold 2 and half boats. The moorings where you describe aren't moorings but a towpath and most of this area has the banking falling away into the canal and fairly shallow.

[MyLady]

Good point, Roger.

 

However the boaters who do not know the area will automatically head for the official moorings, and then be confronted with the news that they are not welcome to stay and go for an evening meal. If they are heading east they have no alternative than to move on without a lot of alternative overnight moorings. We tried to get into the bank both before and after the moorings between the mills. It is possible but a hop, skip and jump (or a gangplank) is required to get ashore. Perhaps additional signage of the area you mention would be the solution. Still begs the question though why the designated moorings are a "no go" area after 6 hours or 6pm, which ever comes first!

 

There is piling, so chains (or, I assume 'safety-pins') give a safe mooring with no gang plank issues.

 

I'll grant you that we were going west, though not when I got trapped between the mill buildings.

 

We've cruised past Saltaire three times this year (twice going west, once going east), so I'll own up to some local knowledge: that tells me that while the moorings in question might be good for visiting the Hockney gallery, I'd far rather visit the sports club to stop overnight, or longer...

 

Roger