Boater With Home Mooring - Court Action Started.

[RLWP]

Explicit signage <snigger>

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

I dont think that sort of response was either necessary or called-for

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

[GUMPY]

 

CRT do not have the resources to run vendettas, secret police groups, massive databases of who was on their home mooring when and so on. They do have the ability to spot people taking the piss and now also have the intention to do something about it. Good!

 

Richard

Actually the do have a large database of who was where on what date!

And guess what there is an employee who has the job of analysing that database to flag up the piss takers.

[nicknorman]

Explicit signage <snigger>

 

Richard

Well they have it in Manchester, "no bonking in public" etc

[Naughty Cal]

Actually the do have a large database of who was where on what date!

And guess what there is an employee who has the job of analysing that database to flag up the piss takers.

I would love to see their log of where we have been.......

[RLWP]

I would love to see their log of where we have been.......

 

I'll bet you keep disappearing

 

Richard

[mayalld]

Why?

 

That would pretty much scupper a lot of weekend boaters out and back cruising patterns. As long as they move off before the VM time limits and take their boat back to the mooring I see no reason to be so draconian.

 

Eg if I want too pootle up to Syke house junction from my mooring three weekends on a trot and stay a couple of nights each time what exactly am I doing wrong?

 

Nothing. Under you suggestion I would be.

 

It is actually quite difficult to define a rule without getting too complex!

 

I would suggest the following to be a rule of thumb

 

1) The mooring time limit applies in aggregate to all time at a mooring without sufficient break to start the clock again.

2) being away from a mooring for as long as you have currently been on the mooring in aggregate restarts the clock.

 

So, for example

 

I moor on 48 hour mooring at 6pm. At 8am the next day, I leave the mooring, returning at 6pm that evening. I then depart at 8am the following morning, returning at 6pm and again depart at 8am

 

My first spell on the mooring was 14 hours. The 10 hour break is not enough to restart the clock. I stay for another 14 hours, so I have stayed 28 hours in aggregate. My second 10 hour break certainly doesn't break my 28 hours, and after the third night I have stayed 42 hours in aggregate. I have another 6 hours left, or if I stay away for 42 hours, I restart the clock.

[RLWP]

Actually the do have a large database of who was where on what date!

And guess what there is an employee who has the job of analysing that database to flag up the piss takers.

 

Being serious, do you know that to be true rather than a rumour or speculation?

 

Richard

[mayalld]

 

I wouldn't mind betting that no one ever purchased a home mooring for that purpose.

 

Nobody suggested that they did.

[MtB]

Why?

 

As ammunition for CRT to prevent piss taking on VMs, obviously.

 

I note your failure to put forward an alternative, and better proposal.

 

 

MtB

[KevMc]

 

It is actually quite difficult to define a rule without getting too complex!

 

I would suggest the following to be a rule of thumb

 

1) The mooring time limit applies in aggregate to all time at a mooring without sufficient break to start the clock again.

2) being away from a mooring for as long as you have currently been on the mooring in aggregate restarts the clock.

 

So, for example

 

I moor on 48 hour mooring at 6pm. At 8am the next day, I leave the mooring, returning at 6pm that evening. I then depart at 8am the following morning, returning at 6pm and again depart at 8am

 

My first spell on the mooring was 14 hours. The 10 hour break is not enough to restart the clock. I stay for another 14 hours, so I have stayed 28 hours in aggregate. My second 10 hour break certainly doesn't break my 28 hours, and after the third night I have stayed 42 hours in aggregate. I have another 6 hours left, or if I stay away for 42 hours, I restart the clock.

 

A fine plan ... but totally impossible to monitor without more resources than the Stasi used to have I venture to guess :-)

[alan_fincher]

Whilst "no return" rules might look sensible and fair to many, as far as I can see none of the discussion here seems to acknowledge that it is very widely believed that CRT do not have the legal powers to actually enforce them.

 

That view is certainly supported by boating associations who have taken legal advice on the matter, and, off the record, people within CRT will often admit that they are on flaky ground, which is why no attempt is generally made to test this particular aspect in court.

 

The same applies to "service charges" for overstaying any prescribed time limit for a visitor mooring of less than 14 days.

 

Just because something might seem fair and equitable to many, doesn't actually make it what the law actually says.

[Guest]

As ammunition for CRT to prevent piss taking on VMs, obviously.

 

 

MtB

Note it all you like.

 

I wouldn't be taking the piss.

[Proper Job]

 

Nice to know your in such good health. I often have to return to the same place for things like blood test results, or even just to get suitable doctors appointments.

 

If you talk to CRT they are generally very cooperative with regard to medical matters and will often assist

[GUMPY]

I would love to see their log of where we have been.......

Just apply to CRT and they will tell you.

Not sure of the procedure, I will ask.

[Quinafloat]

Presumably you are too unwell to get a bus, train, bicycle or taxi to your doctor's surgery, or in the case of blood test results, unable to use the telephone? I do feel very sorry for you having such a poor quality of life, but how fortunate that you found a doctor's surgery on the canal bank that you can moor outside whilst visiting. How even more fortunate (if inexplicable) that despite these infirmities you manage to operate your boat.

 

2+2 does not equal 22. I am a ccer, I basically live in the countryside and visit "civilisation" for shopping and doctors. If a doctor says come back in a week I move and come back in a week. I do indeed plan my trips taking into consideration doctors surgeries that are near the canal as I can only walk about 2 miles in one go.

 

I cannot cycle as I don't have a bike, and the middle of the countryside is not always littered with stations, bus stops or taxi ranks as you would find out if you ever do any cruising.

[nicknorman]

A fine plan ... but totally impossible to monitor without more resources than the Stasi used to have I venture to guess :-)

Whether or not enforcement is feasible is a slightly different argument but as a starter, I don't think CRT offers any guidance on the matter and if they did, we would "all be singing from the same hymn sheet" and at least know what was reasonable and what was not. We could of course then choose to act unreasonably but comeuppance would be obtained when we were reincarnated as a slug.

[GUMPY]

 

Being serious, do you know that to be true rather than a rumour or speculation?

 

Richard

Yes I know it to be true. Edited July 9, 2014 by Loddon

[Naughty Cal]

Just apply to CRT and they will tell you.

Not sure of the procedure, I will ask.

 

 

I would genuinely be interested in seeing where we have been logged and when.

[Tuscan]

Difficult to know what to do know when planning next cruise as Nick seems to be redefining the current laws. Just to be safe I think we better start running our proposed trips past him in future to see if it's acceptable to him.

[MtB]

Whilst "no return" rules might look sensible and fair to many, as far as I can see none of the discussion here seems to acknowledge that it is very widely believed that CRT do not have the legal powers to actually enforce them.

 

That view is certainly supported by boating associations who have taken legal advice on the matter, and, off the record, people within CRT will often admit that they are on flaky ground, which is why no attempt is generally made to test this particular aspect in court.

 

The same applies to "service charges" for overstaying any prescribed time limit for a visitor mooring of less than 14 days.

 

Just because something might seem fair and equitable to many, doesn't actually make it what the law actually says.

 

 

As a fully qualified barrack room lawyer myself, I hold that you are overlooking contract law.

 

If CRT make it a term of the license contract to comply with whatever arbitrary mooring time limits and no-return limits they choose to set, then boaters ignoring those time limits will be in breach of their license contracts. CRT will then be entitled to cancel those licences and take enforvement action to have the unlicenced boats removed.

 

Simple!

 

 

MtB

[nicknorman]

2+2 does not equal 22. I am a ccer, I basically live in the countryside and visit "civilisation" for shopping and doctors. If a doctor says come back in a week I move and come back in a week. I do indeed plan my trips taking into consideration doctors surgeries that are near the canal as I can only walk about 2 miles in one go.

 

I cannot cycle as I don't have a bike, and the middle of the countryside is not always littered with stations, bus stops or taxi ranks as you would find out if you ever do any cruising.

Your argument is unfortunately weakened by deliberately implying that taxi ranks as the only means of getting a taxi. I can't remember the last time I used a taxi rank, but plenty of times have I telephoned for a taxi. Whilst this may be impractical when no "landmarks" are available, one only has to be near a pub or similar to be able to give the taxi firm a point of reference.

 

Anyway, if you go away for a week and come back for a day to visit your doctor, I really don't think this is a problem, it would only be if you stayed a week outside your doctors and went away for a day, repeating this cycle for a long time, that it would be a problem.

Difficult to know what to do know when planning next cruise as Nick seems to be redefining the current laws. Just to be safe I think we better start running our proposed trips past him in future to see if it's acceptable to him.

Good idea, and don't forget the consultancy fee.

[alan_fincher]

Just apply to CRT and they will tell you.

Not sure of the procedure, I will ask.

 

 

 

 

I would genuinely be interested in seeing where we have been logged and when.

 

Some boaters have blogged about doing this.

 

This example from Les Biggs of "Valerie".

 

However I would urge those who complain about wasting CRT's time with unnecessary requests to only do this if they have some genuine reason for doing it, and not simply because they want to see data for their own particular boats. Clearly every such request diverts people like Sarina from other tasks.

 

 

As a fully qualified barrack room lawyer myself, I hold that you are overlooking contract law.

 

If CRT make it a term of the license contract to comply with whatever arbitrary mooring time limits and no-return limits they choose to set, then boaters ignoring those time limits will be in breach of their license contracts. CRT will then be entitled to cancel those licences and take enforvement action to have the unlicenced boats removed.

 

Simple!

 

 

MtB

 

So when they tell you, (off the record), they are not keen to do that, because they might establish a precedent of losing, they are just having a larf, then?

[nicknorman]

Whilst "no return" rules might look sensible and fair to many, as far as I can see none of the discussion here seems to acknowledge that it is very widely believed that CRT do not have the legal powers to actually enforce them.

 

That view is certainly supported by boating associations who have taken legal advice on the matter, and, off the record, people within CRT will often admit that they are on flaky ground, which is why no attempt is generally made to test this particular aspect in court.

 

The same applies to "service charges" for overstaying any prescribed time limit for a visitor mooring of less than 14 days.

 

Just because something might seem fair and equitable to many, doesn't actually make it what the law actually says.

The discussion did acknowledge this point right at the start. We don't need to keep repeating it. However would you rather CRT paid no attention to those who go away from a VM for a few hours, or even move along to some different rings, and thus restart their VM clocks, in perpetuity, (in which case VMs would soon become unusable for visitors in some locations), or would you rather they did their best, despite the impediment of the law, to control the situation for the overall good?

[Quinafloat]

Anyway, if you go away for a week and come back for a day to visit your doctor, I really don't think this is a problem, it would only be if you stayed a week outside your doctors and went away for a day, repeating this cycle for a long time, that it would be a problem.

 

 

Many thanks for your blessing on the way I conduct my life. I'm sure that I feel better for that. Mind you an apology for your unwarranted attack would make me feel even better.