How does a trad stern give you 'more useful internal space'?

[Marjorie]

I'm pretty sure I have misunderstood something somewhere along the way, but I've heard people saying that a trad stern gives you more useful internal space. I don't understand how. All the trad sterns I have been on (only 4 or 5, to be fair) look to me to be laid out more or less like a semi-trad, but with a roof on, which only gives you crouching room between the engine hatch and the ceiling.

 

Is it that the trad sterns I have seen are not very well planned, or is this the normal way of things?

 

I don't see how you are giving yourself more useful internal space with this vs a cruiser or semi-trad stern.

 

[RLWP]

There are two types of Trad stern

 

The 'traditional'* one is as the old working boats with the cabin extending as far back as possible, and with the engine in it's own engine room

 

The 'modern'* one has the cabin extending back as far as possible with the engine under the steerer's feet

 

Both mean the cabin is a good deal longer than a cruiser stern - this is where the 'more internal space' bit comes from

 

Now, how usable that space is is open to some debate

 

Richard

 

*my descriptions

Edited June 2, 2014 by RLWP

[pete.i]

It probably applies more to a short boat like mine. I have a 30 foot boat and if I had had a cruiser type stern I would be pretty much pushed to have a shower room and "seperate" galley. I wilkl admit though that there is little difference with extra room between a trad and semi trad stern. I will also admit that my shower room and my galley are still pretty small compared to a bigger boat.

 

Pete

[bottle]

All that more useful internal space is nice and dry and warm.

 

I have storage cupboards, coat cupboard, engine spares, tools, all electric controls, in the dry.

 

I can service the engine and generator in the dry.

 

The bilge stays dry.

 

and though it annoys me sometimes, it is a good place to dry and/or air clothes, if it's raining.

 

If push came to shove, someone could sleep there.

[Marjorie]

There are two types of Trad stern

 

The 'traditional'* one is as the old working boats with the cabin extending as far back as possible, and with the engine in it's own engine room

 

The 'modern'* one has the cabin extending back as far as possible with the engine under the steerer's feet

 

Both mean the cabin is a good deal longer than a cruiser stern - this is where the 'more internal space' bit comes from

 

Now, how usable that space is is open to some debate

 

Richard

 

*my descriptions

 

I get it! Thanks

 

You wouldn't want to put anything on top of your engine would you, because you wouldn't want to restrict access (would you even pass a BSC if you did?) - so whether it ends up indoors or outdoors is probably down to taste more than practicality?

All that more useful internal space is nice and dry and warm.

 

I have storage cupboards, coat cupboard, engine spares, tools, all electric controls, in the dry.

 

I can service the engine and generator in the dry.

 

The bilge stays dry.

 

and though it annoys me sometimes, it is a good place to dry and/or air clothes, if it's raining.

 

If push came to shove, someone could sleep there.

 

Any chance of a photo or two? I can't picture how you've fitted so much stuff in

Edited June 2, 2014 by Marjorie

[junior]

Not to mention that three quarters of your body can be inside when steering. Just wait until you see someone steering a cruiser stern in the rain/winter. That will be enough to persuade you never to get one.

[RLWP]

Not to mention that three quarters of your body can be inside when steering. Just wait until you see someone steering a cruiser stern in the rain/winter. That will be enough to persuade you never to get one.

 

Nonsense

 

Richard

 

I get it! Thanks

 

You wouldn't want to put anything on top of your engine would you, because you wouldn't want to restrict access (would you even pass a BSC if you did?) - so whether it ends up indoors or outdoors is probably down to taste more than practicality?

 

If you are talking about an engine room, it can offer more space than putting things on top of the engine. It has the potential for lots of underfloor storage, a wall cupboard perhaps, hanging space for wet clothes, maybe a washing machine

 

In fact, it can become a horribly cluttered space for dumping stuff

 

Richard

[Alan de Enfield]

All instrumentation in front of you

Coat hooks along right-hand side

Small cupboards on the left hand side, with spares and bits & pieces

Large 'box' on the LH side containing 2x gas bottles, storage on top (spare porta-potty) ropes etc.

 

[RLWP]

I like the bell for summoning the servants

 

Richard

[Alan de Enfield]

Indeed - I couldnt see the point of it (it was there when we bought her) but its not in the way so its stayed.

 

Normal call the tea/bacon butty wallah is a tiny little 'parp' on the horn (and before 'hoots' of outrage - not a big enough parp to signal turning to starboard)

[Paul C]

Basically, because more internal space is behind lockable doors. BUT I've found that modern trad stern layout you're limited in the amount/type of equipment you can keep in the engine room area, because it all has to be somewhat removeable to allow access to the engine. So the space is only half utilised. And, the deck area on a conventional trad is really limited.

 

A semi-trad stern allows the area 'wasted' by the engine to be used as deck area, much more sociable for 2 (or more) + dog.

 

The best layout I've seen is a trad stern with a large flat deck area inside, and a large (like, square and full width) hatch which can be slid completely forwards, thus 'converting' the boat into a semi trad stern once the hatch is forwards, yet providing secure storage once the hatch and doors are secured. And if the weather turns bad, the hatch could be slid say 3/4 back. The deck would need to be waterproof, drainage would need to be incorporated in the floor, and the items here would need to be weathertight or waterproof (eg electrics panels splashproof, windlasses mooring pins etc stored) but it is possible.

 

Traditional trad with engine room and boatman's cabin is a thoroughly inefficient use of space UNLESS you can genuinely make use of the boatman's cabin and need to store a lot of stuff in the engine room too.

 

For example compare the layout of a 70ft trad vs 57ft semi trad :

 

http://www.venetianmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/2817.aspx

 

 

With

 

http://www.venetianmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/2878.aspx

 

Edited June 2, 2014 by Paul C

[by'eck]

I find the extra back cabin space a trad stern provides very useful although I accept headroom may be limited for some. The floor level within is usually limited by the need for the propshaft running from engine room to prop. Hydraulic drive or in at least one case I've seen, a propshaft taken as low as possible by pulley drives each end with stern gearbox, allow a much lower back cabin floor.

[RLWP]

Basically, because more internal space is behind lockable doors. BUT I've found that modern trad stern layout you're limited in the amount/type of equipment you can keep in the engine room area, because it all has to be somewhat removeable to allow access to the engine. So the space is only half utilised. And, the deck area on a conventional trad is really limited.

 

A semi-trad stern allows the area 'wasted' by the engine to be used as deck area, much more sociable for 2 (or more) + dog.

 

The best layout I've seen is a trad stern with a large flat deck area inside, and a large (like, square and full width) hatch which can be slid completely forwards, thus 'converting' the boat into a semi trad stern once the hatch is forwards, yet providing secure storage once the hatch and doors are secured. And if the weather turns bad, the hatch could be slid say 3/4 back. The deck would need to be waterproof, drainage would need to be incorporated in the floor, and the items here would need to be weathertight or waterproof (eg electrics panels splashproof, windlasses mooring pins etc stored) but it is possible.

 

Traditional trad with engine room and boatman's cabin is a thoroughly inefficient use of space UNLESS you can genuinely make use of the boatman's cabin and need to store a lot of stuff in the engine room too.

 

For example compare the layout of a 70ft trad vs 57ft semi trad :

 

http://www.venetianmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/2817.aspx

 

 

 

With

 

http://www.venetianmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/2878.aspx

 

 

 

Well, that's an argument I suppose. I look at those and wonder at how poorly the space in the front cabin is used

 

Richard

[Bigredbus4468]

I have no boat but think I would like a trad stern to keep things like the folding bikes and toolbox etc. I have no experience btw but we are considering a liveaboard future.

[Ally]

Take a look at Willow Too, or Fruit of the vine, on our gallery pages. Both trads with very use able engine spaces. My signature takes you to our web page, click gallery, then those two boats, where you will find lots of pictures.

[Ex- Member]

Basically, because more internal space is behind lockable doors. BUT I've found that modern trad stern layout you're limited in the amount/type of equipment you can keep in the engine room area, because it all has to be somewhat removeable to allow access to the engine. So the space is only half utilised. And, the deck area on a conventional trad is really limited.

 

 

I suppose it depends on how you plan to use your boat though. A Modern trad stern works very well in a wide beam though. All our boat electrics are in the engine room including battery bank and inverter, We have 3 cupboards built in starboard and one in the floor.

 

 

On the port side we have the calorifier and a load of which now is storage space, but was originally planned to situate an inboard generator.

 

 

 

Port side above the engine. Another cupboard just 4 inches deep but stores mooring pins lump hammer amongst other things.

 

 

We've used decking board over the engine, it makes it very easy to access as you don't usually have to remove it all to gain access. We can store 2 Dahon 26" folders on top though amongst other things. So overall the entire engine room area is a superb storage area IMO.

 

 

ETA Modern trad

Edited June 2, 2014 by Julynian

[RLWP]

I recently worked on a Reeves hulled boat, not sure who fitted it out. They had carefully managed the space so the route to the rear cabin was along the top and down the front of the engine. The steps had to be fitted into spaces available. This made an easy access into the boat, an engine that is easy to work on and a useful space both sides of the rear 'step'

 

Most arrangements can be made to work well, it's all about attention to detail

 

Richard

[Bigredbus4468]

Thanks Julynian. Perfect. We have just bought 2 Dahon Vybe 20" folders.

[Ex- Member]

I find the extra back cabin space a trad stern provides very useful although I accept headroom may be limited for some. The floor level within is usually limited by the need for the propshaft running from engine room to prop. Hydraulic drive or in at least one case I've seen, a propshaft taken as low as possible by pulley drives each end with stern gearbox, allow a much lower back cabin floor.

 

 

I use this space as a wee workshop. We have a slipper stern so have full standing height on the lower step. I use the decking as a work bench and store all my tools in this area too. Works well.

[IanM]

This is our trad.

 

 

[Paul C]

 

Well, that's an argument I suppose. I look at those and wonder at how poorly the space in the front cabin is used

 

Richard

 

I'm surprised you say this since its a very popular use of front area (in fact, many boats have a front lounge twice the size). I'd say the front cabin area is perfect - yes there's little furniture in the available boat length, but thats what I like - a bit of space around the chairs. That's what (IMHO) gives a boat a feeling of luxury and space, not the amount of units or berths crammed into it.

[RLWP]

 

I'm surprised you say this since its a very popular use of front area (in fact, many boats have a front lounge twice the size). I'd say the front cabin area is perfect - yes there's little furniture in the available boat length, but thats what I like - a bit of space around the chairs. That's what (IMHO) gives a boat a feeling of luxury and space, not the amount of units or berths crammed into it.

 

 

Bearing in mind boats are a heart thing, not a head one - I think a twenty foot front cabin with a fire and a couple of Captain's chairs is a phenomenal waste of space. I have been in much shorter boats that seemed bigger just by having some structure to the space.

 

Richard

[Chalky]

I like the bell for summoning the servants

 

Richard

 

We've got a telephone in the engine room so I can talk to the crew. Causes a few odd looks when you've cruising along with a phone (complete with collied cord) in your hand.

 

I used the space under the steps in the engine room as a location for a rope locker and the space on the bulkhead is a shallow cupboard for mooring pins, hammer, piling hooks etc. Keeps everything to hand but tidy and more importantly inside where they're secure.

[Bettie Boo]

One side of ours is the washing machine and shelving for cleaning products, cloths pegs, telescopic mop & broom & bucket (and soon to be, wall mount for the vac) the other side is used for spare ropes, tools that are used regularly, mooring pins / chains, electric panels & controls. Bit of a mess at the moment, but I have a vision

 

I'd be lost without this dry, secure space. And still plenty of room for 2 on the back while cruising (WB)

[Marjorie]

 

The best layout I've seen is a trad stern with a large flat deck area inside, and a large (like, square and full width) hatch which can be slid completely forwards, thus 'converting' the boat into a semi trad stern once the hatch is forwards, yet providing secure storage once the hatch and doors are secured. And if the weather turns bad, the hatch could be slid say 3/4 back. The deck would need to be waterproof, drainage would need to be incorporated in the floor, and the items here would need to be weathertight or waterproof (eg electrics panels splashproof, windlasses mooring pins etc stored) but it is possible.

 

 

 

Oh that sounds like a cool idea (expensive because of the hatch maybe?)

 

Alan, I want a bell. Nothing else really maters (engine? Whatever.).

 

Actually, some of you have pretty nice looking homes. Can I just come live with you?