eberspacher electrical misery

[NMEA]

We could easily be being mislead over the voltage issue, it is often taken as more important than it actually is. Eber and Webasto actually need vey little voltage to start if all the supply chain is good and running an engine also produces vibration which is another candidate for both curing and introducing faults.

[smileypete]

BSP gave some sound advice earlier about getting a diagnostic timer being worthwhile.

 

Something that's also useful is a DC clamp ammeter, it would make it easy to find out the starting current and how long the glopin is on for, and running current (mainly fan). They are usually around £25 online or £40 from Maplins:

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...efLoc=1&_sop=15

http://www.maplin.co...ultimeter-n41nc

 

The fan does sound quite ropey compared to a couple of videos on Youtube for other D4WSC and D5WSC, could be useful to find out what current it's pulling.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 28, 2014 by smileypete

[Paul G2]

BSP gave some sound advice earlier about getting a diagnostic timer being worthwhile.

 

 

Whilst looking for a schematic for Chubby's heater I came across another good reason for the diagnostic timer. Apparently the Eberspacher has a feature that prevents it from lighting after too many failed attempts. The diagnostic timer can reset this feature.

[pquinn]

Chubby,are the rads heating up?

[Hawkmoth]

 

Whilst looking for a schematic for Chubby's heater I came across another good reason for the diagnostic timer. Apparently the Eberspacher has a feature that prevents it from lighting after too many failed attempts. The diagnostic timer can reset this feature.

Yes, Ebers do "lock out" after 3 failed starts. If you don't have a diagnostic timer all you need to do is remove the power from the heater for a few seconds and it resets.

Bob

[chubby]

 

Hi ,

 

Yes , the rads heat up . The one furthest away doesn t get as hot as the other 3 but im ok with that . Primarily its for hot water so as not to run the engine as i thinks its wasteful .

My ebers had plenty of attempts to start & i ve been concerned about it locking out but it never has .

i m going to bid on these 7 day timers on ebay if i find one with diagnostic codes for future fault finding .

 

im going to run it again this afternoon around 4 oclock & i hope its working as i ve got a boat safety inspection shortly & i need to turn my attention to that

 

cheers

Edited May 29, 2014 by chubby

[NMEA]

Chubby, turn the lockshield valves down a bit on the other rads, you could always do it properly and measure the in and out temperatures but for now just turn them down a bit and fully open the furthest one,

 

As for lock outs, there is a great deal of misinformation on the web about these and other heaters, sadly even the more accurate stuff is read, not understood and re posted in simplistic and misleading form. To be clear: SOME heaters have a lock out, SOME heaters can be reset from a (not true lock out) by disconnecting power, but even then SOME need a specific sequence on the timer or thermostat whilst the power is disconnected and reconnected, SOME can be reset with a diagnostic timer and SOME can only be unlocked using EDITH or Thermotest with the proper dongle, not the East European cloned one. And SOME will not even talk to EDITH or Thermotest unless very specific connections are made that are peculiar to that model. The variants are far too complex to go into here but suffice to say generalities are fine for stuff like basic electrical supply and exhaust systems but that is where it ends.

[Bobbybass]

Good grief !!

 

11 pages of replies...and still on the 'go' !!

 

Hi Chubby...

Sorry I vanished..I popped into hospital for a quick check...and they liked me so much that I couldn't escape !

 

Looks like...you are still having fun...

 

Good luck..

 

Bob

[smileypete]

My ebers had plenty of attempts to start & i ve been concerned about it locking out but it never has .

 

Might be because it locks out on a number of failed 'ignition attempts' whereas you heater wasn't even attempting ignition at the point it gave up (no fuel pump ticking)

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[chubby]

Hello again

 

Bobbybass , good to see you back . Sorry to hear you ve been in Hospital & that alls well . I hope it wasnt related to any banging of heads against walls whilst trying to help the least capable eber owner afloat i hope !!

Just kidding & i hope your on the mend .

The lockout thing does puzzle me as it seems random . Some models do & some dont . Mine hasn t ..... yet .

 

This morning 8 am i tried the eber & it failed to start . Just like before it was 10 seconds max & then shutdown .

i now know that next i must run the engine to get some power back to the batts & that i m looking at a power issue . Thats good i think as i m not in two minds about fuel issues . Its about power .

BUT ,

Before attempting to start i checked smartgauge . 13.5 v & 95 Status .

I ve been advised to ignore smartgauge and this i have done . I ve put the readings here incase they re relevant for the problem .

So supposing the smargauge IS correct ( a multimeter across the batts confirms the voltage ) the are we saying that 13.5 v is insufficient ?. That a 95% charged battery is insufficient ?

 

I ve been advised to run the engine if it fails again & this i will do later this afternoon ( i have to go out now ) & hopefully it ll work again as it did a few days ago .

 

Long term , this is potentially quite grim as if 13.5 v / 95 % SOC is not sufficient with 400 w of solar charging then winter is looking like a struggle .

I really hate running the engine for anything other than propulsion , but would be ok with starting the engine to provide 14.4 v via the alternator & running for , say , 10 mins whilst eber starts up .

 

I need to fit a new fan belt to the alternator & its only delivering 13.5 v whilst running .

 

So if i run the engine later & eber starts up ok then i need to understand why it doesn t start at 95% soc & 13.5 v

 

OR is it that my smartgauge is just not reliable ? So many people seem to swear by them that i can t believe this is the case ?

 

Howver much i dislike running the engine im going to have to in Winter time as solar wont be maintaining my batts so is upgrading the alternator worthwhile innorder to cut running times?

 

cheers

[b0atman]

When I had an eberspacher I found that my none starting was due to low "octane ?" red diesel that the marina was supplying I cured it by putting 5 gallons of white diesel in the tank at the start of winter .

The eberspacher I put a frost stat in parallel with the pull switch and used the system as a back up to the wonderful Morso stove which also fed the radiators with hot antifreeze.

[bottle]

Chubby

 

13.5 v and 95 % are good and should start the Erbaspacher.

 

but

 

if you have a bad connection then the voltage at the Erbaspacher may not be 13.5v

 

When you run the engine the alternator will be supplying in the region of 14.4v

 

So although there is still a bad connection) the Erbaspacher will still be getting more than it was from just the battery

 

Hence it firing up when the engine has been, is running.

 

With acknowledgement to NMEA post #201

 

Think of it this way, you can put your finger over the end of a hose and stop the flow of water, if the tap is only partly turned on. Turn the tap on fully and it is more difficult to stop the flow.

 

The bad connection is your finger and the force is the voltage.

[p6rob]

Chubby, If it starts after, or while the engine is running, you'll have definitively ruled out a fuel problem and can go through the electrical system and then act accordingly to fix it.

 

Without having seen your installation and by what you've said about battery readings, my best guess would be there is voltage drop somewhere between the batteries and the eber.

After you've established if running the engine/ charging the batteries makes the eber run, my next step would be to add an additional wire between the battery negative post and the eber's earth.

 

Just a thought, is the negative wire to the eber coming from the same battery as the positive wire?

 

Rob

[OldGoat]

Nobody has queried whether your cable connecting the ebbersplutter to the batteries is thick enough. My Mikuni (perhaps you should change) takes at least 10 amps at 24V (that equals 20 amps for you) when the glow plug is on.

 

SO I'm wondering if that may be the problem. Can you measure the voltage at the unit, rather than at the batteries??

 

 

[Bobbybass]

Hi Mr Chubby...

 

My psychiatrist says that I should be OK to talk to you again...and if I get stressed..I just need to take these little blue pills.

 

RE : Running engine...

 

When you start the Eber...it takes a fair bit of juice (20 amps +) ..because it has to get the glowplug going...hence...you may need to run the engine. Once it's been going for a short time..it's almost 'self sustaining'...as the glowplug is off...and it just runs with water pump and fan which should only be about 5 amps...

 

Worth trying to shut off engine...once its going...

 

Bob...(ahhh..these blue pills make Chubby's Eber so much calmer)

[chubby]

 

cheers folks .

 

I m now returning to the boat & will be there by 2.30 hopefully . I ve been turning the eber on in the afternoon around 4 ish for the last 3 days .

 

The voltage on SG has at this time has usually been 14 v as the solar has been charging all day .

Its started first try

 

This morning i didn t have to go to work so tried it at 8 am as a test as it was before the solar had had enough time to increase the voltage & SOC .

I half expected it not to work . Though disappointing it does now mean that theres not ebough " oomph " to pass thru the elusuve " dodgy connection " & the garden hose description above is essentially what i thought the issue must be .

When very high voltage is present at the batts ( all day solar charging , or engine on ) theres enough to surge past the dodgy connection & still deliver enough to the eber .

When starting from a lower voltage & SOC the bad connection gets " found out " & on the other side theres then nit enough power left .

 

Thing is , ive changed all the fuseholders etc & tested every connection both before fusebox & after & before the 8 pin connector & after & every single reading on the voltmeter is the same as the battery reading , which then also confirms the SG reading .

 

The eberspacher works so thats a relief , it just seems to need too much power to start .

 

All my + & - connections come off one battery of 4 . Its always been like this since i bought it . I have 4 110 an batts 3 next to each other & all connections come off the middle one . Theres then 1 more on the other side of the engine linked to the other 3 .

 

is this crap . I ve a dreadful sense of foreboding that the answer will be yes

 

cheers

Bobby bass

 

Those blue pills .... got any spare ?

You ll end up like the guy on the movie Airplane who tries to talk Ted Striker down to land .

 

" looks like i picked the wrong week to quit .... "

 

. Thats how i understand the eber start up procedure . I only need v high volts for the start up and afterwards it draws less . So starting the engine to get the volts up isn t a prob if i can shut the engine down after 10 mins . That i can live with . My thoughts are that if i can get a better alternator & let it run for 30 mins then charge will go back in quicker providing i can get one at a worthwhile price on ebay .

If i m barking up the wrong tree then i won t bother but from what i can gather some folk , in wintertime , will " bulk charge " using the engine & then use a genny to bring the batts up to 100 %

 

Cheers

[p6rob]

Believe it or not this is excellent news. I reckon you've practically got it sussed now.

If the voltages are the same at each connection without load, the next thing would be to find out the volts or amps as the unit starts up as it looks as though there aren't enough amps available to drive the glow plug.

 

 

Move the negative lead to the furthest battery in the bank from the one the positive connection is on.

Rather than have the three fuses fed from one battery connection. Add a separate thick wire to feed the glow plug fuse directly. Again make sue it's on the far side of the bank to the negative connection.

 

Rob

[chubby]

Cheers again

 

So ,

 

4 batteries " hooked up " together . i need ALL positives to one end of the bank & all negs to the other end of the bank , rather than all + & - connections to one battery of 4 ?

Then a seperate red wire direct from the + connection at the batts to the biggest fuse ( of the three that connect to the eber fusebox ) & this will / should provide sufficient power because the wire is " dedicated " to feeding the glowplug alone ?

The remaining two fuses in the fusebox would continue to receive thier voltage via the existing cable ?

This will create a more direct feed to the glowplug & , providing theres sufficient voltages at the battery , this will be more dependable ?

 

Mr NMEA very kindly put together a series of 3 fuse holders whose wires spliced together to connect to the main + feed to the fusebox .

 

So if i m to run a seperate + wire with a new fuseholder for the glowpug will i need to re organise these or can i simply take the glowplug fuse out of the " spliced 3 " & put it in the new fuseholder between batts & glowplug ?

 

Are there any BSS implications with this ? i ve got an inspection on 9th June ?

 

cheers

[smileypete]

It's the voltage at the heater and under load when starting that's all important.

 

A very good test would be to connect a 120W/10A load at the heater plug and see what the voltage does after 10, 20 seconds. If the voltage is inadequate you can then work back towards the batts to find where the biggest losses are.

 

For a suitable load a tester something could be madeup from cheap 12V MR16 halogens and lampholders, or one of those 12V cup boiling things would probably do fine, eg:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-In-Car-Immersion-Heater-Boiler-Element-Water-Soup-Tea-Coffee-Baby-Bottle-/371016539655

 

If you're unfamiliar and trying do things in a hurry, with a minimum of tools and resources and relying in part on guesswork, then it's bound to end up being really tricky and time consuming.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 31, 2014 by smileypete

[Bobbybass]

I would be 'tempted' to think...that although batteries may show reasonably large voltage levels, this is only terminal voltage and is not representative of the actual 'charge' that has been put back in.

Especially true with solar...where the cells themselves are contributing to the voltage readings at the batteries.

 

I wouldn't think that 400 watts...at this time of year...is enough to put back what you are taking out...without running the engine.

Can you actually say...what the maximum amp figure is..that you have seen coming back off the cells at peak sunshine..and for how long this has been sustained..?

 

You would need to disconnect all charging (ie solar) run (as has been said) something like 120 watts of bulbs...and then read off the terminal voltage. That will give you a true idea of the actual capacity that you have available to start the Eber.

[chubby]

Cheers guys

 

blimey , this is getting more complicated each day .

I tried the eber when i got back yesterday afternoon . Started first go & ran with no probs for an hour . I left it again for several hours , tried again & it started again .

The only charging it gets is from the solar & i m a low user of power ( i think ) . No fridge , a couple of hours of telly maybe (12v )& a booster aswell as a water & shower pump . It seems to be the whale gulper thats eats a fair bit .

 

I ll have a look at the little meter that i bought from Bimble but i hardly look at it to be honest . I find it a bit crap really but it was £20 so i didn t expect much from it .

 

Just got back today , tried eber & it works first time . Looked at SG before i tried it - 13.45 v

 

i m not in a hurry to get this stuff sorted but i am inexperienced . I don t mi d it taking me a long time as i m having to learn as i go & time is tight due to work & i ve got a boat safety on 9th June so i need to prepare for that & get my batteries strapped up or fixed down as two of them aren t secured .

 

I thought my solar was doing a good job . Due to my inexperience i bought a SG to take the guesswork out of understanding the condition of my batts & it reads 100 % by mid afternoon at the latest . The little green LED flashes on my Tracer controller & to me these indicate batteries that are " full "

 

So i m getting confused as to the way forward now .

Am i to run a seperate cable direct from the batts to the glowplug fuseholder ??

If

 

I m going to have a cuppa & then have a mooch at this crappy little meter connected to my Tracer

 

cheers

 

eta ; very confused as to the way ahead now as im getting so many different suggestions . My eber right now is working & i m more confused than when it wasn t . Now i don t know if my solars any good , i don t know whether to trust my SG . I know its fitted correctly as even i couldn t wire up a SG the wrong way .

 

cheers

Edited May 31, 2014 by chubby

[bottle]

When your solar panels are working, daylight, then the reading (voltage) at the Smartgauge is the voltage of the solar panels.

 

When the Smartgauge reads 100% that is your batteries fully charged to the capacity they have, not necessarily what it says on the label.

 

As batteries are used (charged/discharged and age) they lose some of their capacity, not fully recharging also has this affect.

 

In an ideal world batteries would be kept 100% SOC but that is impossible on a boat.

 

So depending on age, how well the batteries have been looked after, all have an adverse effect on batteries and their ability to supply 'power'

 

This is a digression from your 'problem' just some background information.

 

ps, your solar is working and you can trust the Smartgauge

[chubby]

Cheers Bottle

 

Thats how i understand it - the voltage on SG fluctuates with the performance of the panels which depends on light conditions . If i turn my eber on at peak voltages then eber starts no probs . This afternoon SG read 13.5 v & it started ok again . My eber is primarily for providing hot water and therefore it doesn t make too much difference when i turn it on so at this time of year i expect to fire it up for 1 hour between noon & 4 or 5 pm when the voltage from the panels is highest which is sometimes 14 + V . In wintertime i can deliver 14 + V via the engines alternator .

 

I also understand what you say about SOC & that just cos it says 110 ah on the batteries this does not mean its currently able to hold110ah & that when SG reads 100 % this is 100 % of the batteries current capacity which will deteriorate with time & battery use . Theyre pretty new - September 13 i bought them .

 

If my batts are 100% by midday , which they often are then i can t do any more to improve matters . I can fit 1 more 100 w panel to my 40 amp tracer but it apoears unnecessary as by midday the batts are full at this time of year.

Would there be any point adding another battery to my existing 4 seeing as i have room & the solar has fully charged the current 4 by midday or 1 pm ?

Or is this not good practice as the other 4 are now 9 months old ?

 

cheers

Edited May 31, 2014 by chubby

[bottle]

Chubby

 

If you have four domestics and only nine months old, I would not bother getting anymore. Assuming you have always treated them well.

 

You may have excess at the moment from your panels but come the winter, they may not be able to supply all your needs.

 

There are many discussions as to whether it is good or not to add to an existing bank, personally I would not, unless, the bank was not very old and one battery went 'belly up' through say a manufacturing fault. Of course that is not adding just replacing.

 

Have a day off and enjoy the sunshine

 

[BlueStringPudding]

Temporarily back (sorry, Chubby)

 

I replaced the exhaust on my Eber which now looks a lot better and the whole thing runs a lot quieter now too.

 

Before: with all sorts of fluffy frayedness, aluminium exhaust repair tape and a mix of corroded hoseclips and exhast clamps holding it all together.

 

 

And after: nice new exhaust clamps, new exhaust pipe in heatproof silicone lagging and each join sealed with exhaust paste (thanks for the advice NMEA)

 

 

But my one question is: I thought the new exhaust would also stop the strange plastic-smelling smoke that emanates from Eber when it gets hot. It's ever so whispy and thin so only just visible when it rolls around under the back deck hatch. But it stinks out the back of the boat if the deck hatch is closed. A local boatyard chap advised me the problem was the exhaust. But I'm now sure it's not.

 

It's ever so hard to identify where the smoke is coming from - it seems to mysteriously appear from around the Eber unit itself. It doesn't smell of exhaust but of burnt plastic. However there is nothing anywhere around the unit or the exhaust and other pipes showing any sign of having gotten hot or melty. I'm wondering whether a very slow diesel leak onto the outside of the unit might make this smoke but I'm not sure it would smell like it does.

 

When it's daylight and the unit is cold, I'll check for signs of diesel on the outside of it.

 

Could a hot plastic smelling smoke be produced from a small amount of diesel burning off the hot outside of the unit? Or would that smell of something else?

Edited June 1, 2014 by BlueStringPudding