eberspacher electrical misery

[smileypete]

With the existing relay it could be tested by putting 12V across the coil terminals 85 and 85 and listening for a click, the diag and page below will help identify them:

 

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Automotive-Relays.htm

 

When doing so it's well worth including a fuse in case you make a slip or get the contact terminals by mistake. I still rather suspect there's a problem connection somewhere, this page gives some more info on voltage drops:

 

http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/Eberspacher_Voltage_1.html

 

If you connect a cheap 55W car headlight bulb at the main supply terminal (biggest fuse) to help simulate the load on startup, the voltage at that terminal shouldn't drop by more than 0.5V or to less than 11.5V. When the heater starts it may pull around 20A so things need to be quite conservative to prevent excessive drop.

 

IF all the supply voltages check out OK, the page below identifies a number of checks the heater does before startup, could be worth checking the gloplug continuity in situ, the flame sensor resistance, fuel pump resistance.

 

http://letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/Eberspacher_Faults_2.html

 

If all ALL else fails it could help to 'bench test' it with a clean diesel supply and freshly charged healthy batt, that would help rule out install issues and make it easier to access things.

 

BUT finally it sounds like it would be good to take a well earned break from things for a few days!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

 

[chubby]

Cheers again folks ,

 

So i m heading to Halfords to pick up a replacement relay ive reserved . I ll see if i can pick up a test bulb too .

Like i say , i ve no idea what the relay does but if its meant to click during operation then it certainly does not .

So i ll replace that first . I ll be back on the boat by 4 .30 & will crack on .

Smiley Pete - thanks again . I m not able to have a break until i either give up or fix it ! I ' m just unable to relax completely if i know i ve got things that need doing . But i do take plenty of tea breaks . When i get annoyed & frustrated ( frequently ) the kettle goes on .

NMEA - i didn t think you d be back here , you should be chilling not helping with Chubbys eber

distress . Very glad for your assistance though

 

cheers again

[chubby]

Bought relay . Fitted it . No change .

whirring sound for 10 seconds then it dies . Brand new - & again , if its meant to click ... it doesn t .

 

Im going to go back and re read the links Smiley Pete kindly put up but i m pretty much running out of hope now .

 

Is there no way i can run cables from the batteries to the heater , bypassing all the connections to see if it actually works . The only connections now unchanged are the 8 pin connector between fusebox & heater .

 

I don t think i m going to have much choice really but to pay an electrician to just replace EVERYTHING between the batteries and the heater because im just finding it too technical as i ve no prior experience .

 

i ve replaced all the crappy fuses with better ones , the relays been replaced and i ve got no further at all . At first it would seem i m working my way thru the possibilities but what i feel like im doing is running out of options

Edited May 25, 2014 by chubby

[bottle]

Chubby

 

Cup of tea time.

 

Relays do click but only very quietly.

 

Now have you noticed the recurring theme.... the 8 pin connector.

 

We cannot be 100% sure this is the fault but it does need to be eliminated

 

You have done all that anyone else would have done and not given up as many would have done by now.

 

You will get there.

[chubby]

Cheers Bottle ,

 

I have a cuppa on the go as i write .

 

I have indeed noticed this appears to be pointing the finger at this 8 pin connector . I just dont see how or why it would fail . Having said that the connector has been unsupported , the heaters been scarcely used for god knows how long , the boat was scarcely used for yonks and so now its being used alot , so MAYBE the connector is feeling the strain of being moved around . Maybe its a piece of complete crap and has been likely to fail from day one .

 

Earlier suggestions included cutting the main power cables ( thick brown & red ) that run from fusebox to the female side of the connector . Cut the brown & red cables that run from the male half of the connector to the heater , ( temporarily ) splice together , cover with tape & press the start button .

 

Is this looking likely to be the next move ? I don t have a test bulb so i can t do Smiley Petes test . If i go back to my previous threads i ll be able to find out how to test for voltage drop when trying to start the eber but this will take me a long time to find as this " research " takes me ages as this is v technical for me . To test fir voltage drop during start up i must put the probes on two specific wires on the female side of the 8 pin connector & press start but i cannot remember which 2 wires so i ll go back & look .

 

I don t know if this is relevant & imclutching at straws now but i did the following : I put my multimeter on each of the three cables / connectors that come out of each of the 3 blade fuse holders that i used to replace the crappy torpedo types . AFTER each fuse it read 13.5 v . I reconnected the 3 fuses to the wires that then run out of the fusebox to the female side of the 8 pin connector . I then put the multimeter on the brown& red cables on the female terminals -13.5 v

 

relevant ? i thought i d share it in case it was .

 

Now , if all 3 fuses have 13.5 v after the fuse then surely this means that sufficient power is present . 13.5 v at the female end of the connector must mean voltage is sufficient prior to the last link between fusebox & heater ( which is the 8 pin connector )

 

shall i be getting ready to operate ! snip snip

 

cheers

[chubby]

Ok

 

i ve read thru an old thread of mine and i think pennies are starting to drop .

In my previous thread i was advised , as in this one , to test for voltage drop NOT with a multimeter but WITH an item that will draw a LOAD - ie a bulb .

 

This is because the heater does not need VOLTS to start but AMPS ( i won t pretend i understand ) and by using a test method that requires AMPS ( a bulb ) i can physically see whether sufficient power ( in AMPS ) is present .

 

So , if i stick the relevant wires ( from the bulb ) into the relevant female ports on the 8 pin connector , the bulb SHOULD light . I then push the multimeter probes into the same 2 female ports ( at the same time , with the bulb wires still present ) this will give me a reading in VOLTS . I then press " start " on the timer . The bulb should dim somewhat (?) and the voltage on the multimeter should drop ? It is the extent of the drop during start up that must be determined

 

Or am i talking utter crap

Edited May 25, 2014 by chubby

[bottle]

but you are reading all these voltages with 'no load', when a load is applied then some of the connections may be braking down.

 

I think Smiley Pete gave you some indications on what to do to check the voltages under load.

 

also NMEA, I think, offered some better connections, I would take him up on that offer.

 

Noted you posted as I was typing, yes I think you've got it.

[chubby]

Cheers Bottle ,

 

So i have found a spare Halogen cabin bulb . Ive put the wires from the bulb holder to the thick brown & red cables on the female side of the connector . The light comes on

 

So i now need to do the same thing but also push the meter probes into the same female ports . The voltage reading will be the " under load " reading ... because the lightbulb is drawing power .

 

i ll be back

Edited May 25, 2014 by chubby

[chubby]

Ok

 

The bulb i have is 10 w . Smileypete recommends a 55w headlamp bulb . I don t have one . BUT if i m barking up the right tree here and what i m doing is correct then tomorrow i shall get one .

 

What i did was put two multimeter probes into the 8 pin connector female side where the thick red & thick brown from the fusebox terminate . The voltage was 13.8

I then pushed the wires from the bulb in aswell . The light came on . The voltage dropped to 13.4

 

My bulb is much less powerful than Smileypete recommends so these readings may not be of help but if the method i ve described is the correct way of testing " voltage drop under load " then ill get this bigger bulb tomorrow .

 

Thankyou

[smileypete]

Well done

 

Had a look at the circuit diagram on p42 of the manual PDF on this link:

 

http://butlertechnik.com/download/4n/Eberspacher_Hydronic_D4WSC_Workshop_Manual.pdf

 

The thick red and brown wires on pin 1 and 2 of the connector are indeed the main supply wires.

 

What would be good to do is measure the voltage at the connector with the bulb illuminated and then measure the voltage across the battery terminals with the bulb illuminated, then repeat the first one just as a check.

 

IF there is a mains charger running (I suspect there is?), and the charger connections are decent and it's keeping the batt at 13.8V then your reading could point to excessive volt drop, but worth doing the above check just to be sure.

 

See according to the link above, the heater draws 8A/100W at startup. If connecting a 0.8A/10W load causes a 0.4V drop, then multiply that by 10 for a 8A/100W load gives a 4V drop which is tooo much

 

But if there is no charger then the 0.4V drop may be down the batt voltage sagging a bit, so it'd be good to check one way or the other. ETA But if you can get hold of a cheap 55W bulb it should make things a lot easier!

 

If you do want to try starting the heater, it'd be worth running the engine then checking the batt terminal voltage is raised to 14.4V before attempting a start to give it the best chance poss.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 25, 2014 by smileypete

[chubby]

Cheers SmileyPete

 

I realise this is very basic stuff for most boat owners but the penny never dropped until a couple of hours ago .

 

So i ve done as you suggest .

 

I re did the test of the voltage at the thick brown & thick red wires . Female terminals 1&2 on the 8 pin connector .

This time 12.95 v

with bulb lit 12.78 v

 

With bulb off i i tested across the battery terminals . 12.95 v

with bulb lit - 12.95 v

 

The batteries aren t on a charger but are charged by 400 w of solar panels via a Tracer 40 amp MPPT controller . I think the discrepancy between my earlier voltage readings is due to fading light .

 

So do i need to re do these tests when the batteries are rested - tomorrow morning before any load is used ?

 

I m moored opposite some boats so i m reluctant to run the engine but will if i need only do it for 5 mins or otherwise i ll check tomorrow .

 

cheers again

[smileypete]

Well I think you deserve a medal for your tenacity so far

 

So you're getting 0.17V drop now which is better than the 0.4V drop earlier but still cutting it fine at very best for such a small load, and it has changed from before, and the heater has cut out previously, particularly after engine work, which points to an iffy connection(s) somewhere and possibly inadequate wiring too.

 

I'm not saying it's THE problem, or the only one, but if you have a flaky supply it's going not going to help for sure. Something to try for tomorrow could be to put the bulb and meter on, then watch the reading while you waggle each of the connections in turn between heater and batt, on both +12V and 0V side, including the batt isolator (hope it's not one of the dreaded 'red key' ones)

 

IF you get a stable voltage throughout then check the wire size between heater and batts, it should be at least 4mm² for cable distances of up to 2.5m from batts which is a size up from the 2.5mm² red/brown wires used at the 8 way connector:

 

http://letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/Eberspacher_Wiring_1.html

 

I rather suspect that if you did connected 2x 55w bulbs at the 8 way connector to simulate the 8 amp/100W starting load of the heater, the voltage would very soon plummet below the 10.5V minimum for the heater to start reliably.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 25, 2014 by smileypete

[chubby]

Cheers again Pete

 

Early start for me today . Up at 6 am . Its the only full day off i ve got for almost 2 weeks so i need to crack on .

 

A couple of things .

I ve re done the tests again with my rested batteries . This may be irrelevant but im clutching at straws .

results =

At female side of 8 pin connector after fuse box

12.8 v

with bulb on 12.7

 

across battery with no load 12.8 v

with bulb on - 12.8 v

 

now , its pretty obvious that im a bit of a novice ! So i wouldn t know a reliable battery isolator from an unreliable one .

I have ones with " red keys " like you mention . I have two battery " banks " . One starter battery . with an isolator . 4 x 110 ah leisures . With 2 isolators .

I ve no idea why it has 2 . Maybe its normal .

 

What i don t understand , even remotely is how electrical cables can , almost overnight , become unfit for purpose .

 

It didn t work for a year . I stripped it down twice . It worked absolutely 100% perfectly for 3 weeks and didn t miss a beat . It fired up first time , each time . I get the engine serviced . It stops working .

I just cannot convince myself that this is a coincidence . Im even thinking again that this is fuel related . Blocked pipes etc after changing filters .

 

I m doing test after test on the electrics and everywhere i stick a probe is showing 12.7 v minimum .

Halfords want £20 for two 55w bulbs which is beyond a pisstake .

 

Is there any point in doing something potentially cowboy ish - ie strip a tiny amount of sheath off the main power cables on the heater / male side of the connector . Put a bulb / meter to the exposed wire & test . Then re cover the wires . ?

 

im going to drink a large amount of coffee now and then conduct the " waggle " tests Pete recommends to check for fluctuations in voltage .

I. don t know the relevance of these dodgy or dreaded red key isolators ( ive only ever seen this type ) but all this stuff worked fine until the engine service .

 

cheers again folks

 

eta : im going to do a " waggle " test on the nearest isolator aswell to see if tgere are fluctuations . cheers

Edited May 26, 2014 by chubby

[chubby]

ive conducted these tests . I ve waggled every connection and the voltage doesn t change .

My smartgauge & multimeter show 14 v so i tried the heater again . Same results - nothing except 10 seconds of buzz

 

I put my ear v close to the heater & after the buzz stops theres a very feint click click . Very very feint .

 

Relevant ?

 

what i need now is a test to ascertain if power is sufficient after the 8 pin connnector as i m beginning to return to the fuel supply idea . Theres not much more i can change electrically except this 8 pin connector .

 

chhers

[smileypete]

Now it's looking like the electrical connections are OK, how about trying a start while the engine is running and the batt voltage is reading 14.4V, so there is a better voltage at the heater?

 

Nevertheless to check the fuel pump/supply totally disconnect the pump from the heater, disconnect the pump outlet hose and put a container underneath. Then connect one pump wire to brown/0V and 'flash' (briefly touch) the other to the red/12V and it should click and give a spurt of fuel, and 200(!) strokes give 6.5ml, there's more info on the earlier site:

 

http://letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/Eberspacher_Fuel_1.html

 

ETA: If there's no clicking from the pump when it's tested, try checking the resistance which should be 10 ohms. If it is reading 10 ohms OK, try tapping it with a screwdriver handle and repeat the test above.

 

ETA2: Also worth a try, to check the glo plug resistance, disconnect it from the heater and measure the resistance. Then measure the resistance with the meter probes together and subtract from the first reading. According to this page the resistance should be 0.42 to 0.7 ohms:

 

http://www.boat-workshop-manuals.info/pages/Eberspacher-Fault-Finding-Part-2.html

 

Going back to the electrics if you want to try bypassing the controller, which would at least rule out an iffy switch, cut the yellow wire leading to pin 7 of the 8 pin connector (opposite end to brown and red wires) then connect it to 12V, this page has more info:

 

http://letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/Eberspacher_Wiring_1.html

 

For a lightbulb to do a load test on the supply, don't pay Halfords prices, sometimes the £ shops have them or try Ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-H1-SUPER-WHITE-100W-BULBS-DIPPED-BEAM-12V-HEADLIGHT-HEADLAMP-HID-LIGHT-/281298790526

 

Be very careful with halogen bulbs as they get super super hot, rig up some sort of metal bracket and shields so you can't contact it accidentally.

 

Good luck anyway!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 26, 2014 by smileypete

[chubby]

Cheers Pete

 

i don t think i can test the dosing pump like this because its inside the eber .

i can take a black plastic cover off the top of the heater though . IIRC the wires to the pump are then visible .

 

is there not a way of testing fuel lines such as using a plastic jerry cannof fresh diesel , a plastic tube connected to the fuel inlet at the heater , switch on . If its a prob with my fuel line becoming contaminated during the engine service then then with clean diesel & clean pipes it should work .

Or is this dangerous / unworthwhile .

 

The only thing i cannot test electrically is the male side of this 8 pin connector as theres nowhere to put a meter , unless i expose the power cables by stripping a small area of cable sheath .

 

cheers

[chubby]

Cheers Pete

 

I fear i m reaching the point where i can go no further and may have to resort to getting a " man " in .

 

I ve taken the plastic cover off the rear of my eber . This has exposed the dosing pump & its electrical connections . But they re both green wires . I can only theorise that these are from the " brain " ( ECU ?) of the eber rather than being wires from the male side of the 8 pin connector .

 

IF i pull the spade connectors off and reveal the power connections to the dosing pump and connect cables from the battery terminals ( i bought cable & croc clips too at halfords to make test leads if needed ) to these pump connections you re saying it will click , spurt or give some indication of life BUT i must disconnect the fuel line first .

 

Bearing in mind inexperience i m wary of doing this ( but will ) . IF I CONNECT THE POS & NEG FROM THE BATTERY TO THE WRONG TERMINALS ON THE PUMP WILL THIS DAMAGE THE PUMP ?

 

OR

 

WILL IT JUST NOT WORK UNTIL I SWAP THE ENDS OVER .

 

If i won t damage the pump i ll do this test Pete suggests

[smileypete]

First off have you tried starting it with engine running and batt voltage at 14.4V, just to help rule out problems with the supply between batt and heater connections?

 

If you can completely disconnect the pump from the ECU you could test in situ with 12V from the red and brown wires on the connector. If it doesn't click then rigging up a separate fuel supply probably won't help, I would then do a resistance check on it. But if it clicks faintly then maybe its a bit jammed or has air/goo in it or a blocked filter.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

ETA: Do not connect 12V to the pump connections on the ECU!!! You need to totally disconnect the pump from the ECU.

 

According the above linked website the pump will work with either polarity, if it's pulsed in situ the fuel will just go into the heater but a small amount won't hurt.

Edited May 26, 2014 by smileypete

[bizzard]

A way of testing power at wires is if your multi meter has sharpened pointed probes which most have, you can pierce a wires plastic cover to touch the wires inside. Or you can push say drawing pins in and touch those with the multi meter probes.

[chubby]

Cheers

 

i have tried to turn it on with the engine running . The voltmeter needle goes to just shy of 14v on the far from accurate gauge in the engine bay .

I put a meter on the terminals whilst the engine was running . 13.4 v only , not 14.4 .

 

Most of my battery charging is from solar and when i tried the heater this morning the smartgauge & multimeter both read 14 . + ( whether it was point 4 i cannot remember ) . Thats why i tried it because i thought " hello , the voltage is up , i ll switch the heater on now .

 

So my engine / alternator is only providing a charging voltage of 13.4

 

i suspect this is not good .

 

Cheers Bizzard for your suggestion of using pins to pierce the cable for test purposes . Thats the voice of experience and not something that can be bought . Now i know this trick , its so bloody obvious i could weep .

 

the heater didn t start up . Quelle surprise !

 

cheers again , time for a cuppa

 

eta : cheers again Pete . The green wires to the pump i belive come from the ecu . These i WOULD REMOVE FIRST before applying a 12v + & a 0v - from the batteries to test for signs of life .

cheers

Edited May 26, 2014 by chubby

[smileypete]

eta : cheers again Pete . The green wires to the pump i belive come from the ecu . These i WOULD REMOVE FIRST before applying a 12v + & a 0v - from the batteries to test for signs of life .

cheers

 

Yup if you can access the connections at the pump, pull the green wires off the pump, maybe cover them with tape just to be sure, then apply 12V and 0V to the pump terminals.

 

If you can't access the pump terminals post back, it'll be a little more tricky but still doable.

 

As for the alt readings, does sound odd. Maybe get back to that later, one thing at a time...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 26, 2014 by smileypete

[chubby]

Cheers Pete ,

 

ok

The dosing pump is inside the body of the heater at an angle of approximately 45 degrees . I see just two connections , spade type with a rubber sleeve over them . IF there are any other connections of any sort on this pump they ll be down inside the body of the heater completely out of reach unless i remove all the coolant hoses in order to remove more of the plastic casing .

I m sure the only two connection are those i can see at the " out " end of the pump where the fuel goes into a rubber pipe and to elsewhere .

I m going to check photos on ebay & scrutinize the manual & once i m sure that these two spade connections ARE the only ones i ll then put wires across from the batteries .

 

I strongly expect they are the only connections between the pump & the ECU and thier location just beneath the plastic casing would make sense to allow access for engineers ( & muppets like me ) to conduct tests on the pump .

 

I did as Bizzard suggests & have now tested the main power cables ( red & brown ) on the male side of the 8 pin connector that is on the heater side of the link . It reads 13.5 v . So this indicates that the 8 pin connector is infact functioning as it should and that 13.5 v is being received at the ECU . At least , i think this is what the presence of 13.5 v AFTER the connector means .

 

I ll check theres no other electrical connections between the ECU & the dosing pump apart from the two green wires & spade connectors & then i ll do as Smiley Pete suggests to test the pump for signs of life

 

cheers

Edited May 26, 2014 by chubby

[smileypete]

Yeah those are the ones, there will only be two connections on the pump, good that they are accessible OK.

 

Here's a pic of the pump, the connections are just on the back.

 

 

While the cover is off if the combustion fan is accessible it'd be good to check the fan can spin freely. After the fuel pump checks it might even be worth another startup attempt, see if the fan spins a little.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[chubby]

OK

 

i ve checked a 16 page Eberspacher parts list pdf for my D4wsc model . It shows an exploded diagram of the internal parts and theres just the connections i ve seen at the " out " end of the pump where a hose attaches that the delivers the fuel further into the body of the heater .

I will remove the spade connectors & test it with wires direct from the batts

 

cheers

 

ETA : Blimey Pete , you re a legend . I must have been typing at same time . I ll cobble together some cable & croc clips , test & return

 

cheers

Edited May 26, 2014 by chubby

[smileypete]

With the combustion fan it looks like you may need to take the inlet hose off to check it spins freely or on startup.

 

ETA: Forget the above comment, was looking at a different model

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 26, 2014 by smileypete