eberspacher electrical misery

[George94]

Warmer air from inside the accommodation space has a reduced density and therefore a reduced oxygen content which affects the mixture and burn efficiency for one, there are others but manufacturers of these heaters also make the same stipulation on combustion intake and exhausts in marine applications. They don't do it to make our lives difficult, they don't do it for a joke. There is obviously a level of "self covering" in it and that is why I also follow my training courses to the letter when installing, Installing as per the manufacturers instructions (not guidelines, instructions) always leads to the most efficient, safe and reliable systems.

 

So are you saying that these heaters shouldn't be used in summer, or indeed at any time when the ambient temperature approaches 20 degrees C.?

 

I am sure you are wise to follow the manufacturers' instructions to the letter, and indeed that is what I would want any installer to do - unless he knew better. My suspicion is that the advice, insofar as well-ventilated boats are concerned, is more about backside-covering - as you admit - than about real risks.

[smileypete]

Maybe BSP could redirect the intake hose to suck any smelly fumes the heater is giving off..

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[BlueStringPudding]

SmileyP. Excellent plan. It is roughly in that area now so maybe it's already doing that. Perhaps that means if I rerouted the air intake pipe the fumes would get worserer!

 

 

Actually I ran the Eber tonight with the back deck closed and no fumes found their way into the boat. That might mean whatever it was that was smoking - like baked antifreeze - has finally all burnt off. Or maybe there was a draught taking the fumes in the other direction. I'll keep an eye on it over the next few uses

 

And incidentally: poor you Chubby! Nasty job to have to deal with. Hope its all fixed.

[blackrose]

The best thing I ever did on my boat was get rid of the Eber. It worked ok for 4 years with low usage and then it stopped working. It was so badly coked up it needed a new burner unit at a cost of 350 quid, so it was obviously over-specified for the size of the system (DW10).

 

I'd read enough on Roger Gunkel's thread in which he replaced a DW10 with a DW5 and went to a lot of trouble to optimise his system still with no joy, for me to realise these heaters are not for liveaboards. Roger actually got Eberspacher to admit that these heaters aren't designed to run on red diesel if I remember correctly. At the same time I also saw a bloke in the marina where I was moored art the time, who spent hundreds of pounds having his eber serviced only for it to go wrong again shortly after, so I knew that when mine went wrong I would throw it in a skip.

Edited June 5, 2014 by blackrose

[George94]

The best thing I ever did on my boat was get rid of the Eber. It worked ok for 4 years with low usage and then it stopped working. It was so badly coked up it needed a new burner unit at a cost of 350 quid, so it was obviously over-specified for the size of the system (DW10).

 

I'd read enough on Roger Gunkel's thread in which he replaced a DW10 with a DW5 and went to a lot of trouble to optimise his system still with no joy, for me to realise these heaters are not for liveaboards. Roger actually got Eberspacher to admit that these heaters aren't designed to run on red diesel if I remember correctly. At the same time I also saw a bloke in the marina where I was moored art the time, who spent hundreds of pounds having his eber serviced only for it to go wrong again shortly after, so I knew that when mine went wrong I would throw it in a skip.

 

They are meant to be serviced annually, and the service should include a de-coke. This is especially the case with red diesel. Now that the spec is changed, Ebers should perform much better.

 

Incidentally, I am having problems with my Hydronic 10 at the moment, and the finger is pointing at a knackered control unit. Everything has been checked - sensors are all showing correct impedance, etc, - but the diagnostic kit shows an ever-changing list of error codes, mainly related to checked sensors.

 

Looking at the control unit, I saw that the PCB is epoxied into the cover, and no individual parts can be replaced. This would be OK if they were all long-life items, but there are several electrolytic capacitors which have a finite life of perhaps 10 years, maybe more, maybe less. This means that Eber are deliberately ensuring that the unit will fail, and will need to be replaced at great cost. This seems wrong to me.

 

The intermittent nature of the faults is consistent with capacitors which are on their way out - I had the same issue with my old Quad amplifier, but changing the capacitors brought it back to spec..

 

Quad, of course, are or were a reputable company.

[Bobbybass]

 

Looking at the control unit, I saw that the PCB is epoxied into the cover, and no individual parts can be replaced. This would be OK if they were all long-life items, but there are several electrolytic capacitors which have a finite life of perhaps 10 years, maybe more, maybe less. This means that Eber are deliberately ensuring that the unit will fail, and will need to be replaced at great cost. This seems wrong to me.

 

The intermittent nature of the faults is consistent with capacitors which are on their way out - I had the same issue with my old Quad amplifier, but changing the capacitors brought it back to spec..

 

Quad, of course, are or were a reputable company.

 

I wonder how many Quad amplifiers...were installed in trucks and bounced around the countryside...or banged into lock gates on boats ?

 

If you left a large body capacitor to 'spring about'...or vibrate along with the dulcet tones or a large single cylinder diesel engine... on the end of its connecting leads...how long would it last ?

 

if I had dismantled a unit like this...and seen free standing capacitors...I would have epoxyed them to the board !

Edited June 5, 2014 by Bobbybass

[George94]

 

I wonder how many Quad amplifiers...were installed in trucks and bounced around the countryside...or banged into lock gates on boats ?

 

If you left a large body capacitor to 'spring about'...or vibrate along with the dulcet tones or a large single cylinder diesel engine... on the end of its connecting leads...how long would it last ?

 

if I had dismantled a unit like this...and seen free standing capacitors...I would have epoxyed them to the board !

 

They are not large capacitors, and weigh almost nothing. So impacts would have no effect. Anyway, you can get holders for them, and this is how they should have been installed.

 

Ebers are designed to make lots of money for repairers. They are not designed to provide heat economically when you take total ownership costs into account.

[Hawkmoth]

 

Looking at the control unit, I saw that the PCB is epoxied into the cover, and no individual parts can be replaced. This would be OK if they were all long-life items, but there are several electrolytic capacitors which have a finite life of perhaps 10 years, maybe more, maybe less. This means that Eber are deliberately ensuring that the unit will fail, and will need to be replaced at great cost. This seems wrong to me.

 

 

 

Quad, of course, are or were a reputable company.

Yes, they do make sure it can't be fixed, and a new one is an arm and leg. That's why my Eber went in the bin.

The other problem I believe, is that if you only heat the calorifier it will quickly go onto "low fire" setting, which makes it coke up much quicker.

Bob

[Bobbybass]

Yes, they do make sure it can't be fixed, and a new one is an arm and leg. That's why my Eber went in the bin.

The other problem I believe, is that if you only heat the calorifier it will quickly go onto "low fire" setting, which makes it coke up much quicker.

Bob

 

Well....mine was always fine...although old...and ran continually without problem.

 

I guess its down to...knowing what you are doing...

[NMEA]

 

Well....mine was always fine...although old...and ran continually without problem.

 

I guess its down to...knowing what you are doing...

Exactly so, people keep bringing up old problems like Gunkel's that were all about problems caused by high sulphur diesel red diesel that are no longer relevant, as you say, install it properly, service it properly, set the burn rate properly, give it good fuel, accept its limitations as to use along with the advantages and all will be well. I have large numbers of customers that I have installed Webastos, Mikunis and Wallas (I will not entertain an Eber dealership) for and serviced them, I rarely have problems since the introduction of ULSD except one smart ass who was getting cheap high sulphur from a shipping supplier in cans.

[NMEA]

 

So are you saying that these heaters shouldn't be used in summer, or indeed at any time when the ambient temperature approaches 20 degrees C.?

 

Yes, I am, why would you need one then?, except for heating a calorifier which should only be done correctly, i.e. properly installed with large bore coils and pipe or a plate heat exchanger to increase circulation and reduce cycling, these things are not a universal solution, just part of the solution when specified correctly as part of a heating regime and their disadvantages correctly understood and accepted along with the advantages. I take great care to explain this to customers and not infrequently turn down installs if they can not or will not accept or understand what they are, and equally importantly what they are not capable of delivering as I know I would be storing up issues for the future, I rarely have problems. The things are not a God send, but neither are they the devil's spawn. There will shortly be some low wattage pressure jet boilers (Think small DC powered Hurricane) coming to market which will solve most of the current limitations in all except small narrowboats.

[Paul C]

As someone looking to buy a boat (with central heating, probably diesel but might end up with gas) am I best off avoiding Eber and going for Webasto or Mikuni instead? We'd need it set up to provide hot water (via a twin coil calorifier) all year; and hot water and central heating at certain times of the year (eg when you just want a bit of heat, eg spring/autumn evenings and mornings). The boat would have a solid fuel stove too, and because we'd be living on it on a mooring, won't want to run the engine too often, and obviously unable to run it eg 6am or 9pm.

[NMEA]

A Webasto or Mikuni is useful for your requirements, i.e. use to warm up the boat on a timer for an hour or two a day, if the calorifier takes enough heat away from the exchanger to keep it running then that would be OK, sadly the cheap ones usually fitted to narrowboats have too small a coolant capacity for that, a buffer tank on a valve for use in summer only helps in such circumstances.

[George94]

Yes, I am, why would you need one then?, except for heating a calorifier which should only be done correctly, i.e. properly installed with large bore coils and pipe or a plate heat exchanger to increase circulation and reduce cycling, these things are not a universal solution, just part of the solution when specified correctly as part of a heating regime and their disadvantages correctly understood and accepted along with the advantages. I take great care to explain this to customers and not infrequently turn down installs if they can not or will not accept or understand what they are, and equally importantly what they are not capable of delivering as I know I would be storing up issues for the future, I rarely have problems. The things are not a God send, but neither are they the devil's spawn. There will shortly be some low wattage pressure jet boilers (Think small DC powered Hurricane) coming to market which will solve most of the current limitations in all except small narrowboats.

 

Why would I need hot water in summer? Well, I like to wash. And wash up. I don't think these are uncommon desires.

 

What I would really like is something like a drip-feed Refleks that acted solely as a provider of hot water. However, I can't find such a thing. The Hurricane boilers are well-regarded, but expensive, and instant gas water heaters bring their own problems - as well as being expensive to run.

 

I am working on solar, but need something for cloudy days. Meanwhile, in the absence of the Eber, it's necessary to light a solid-fuel stove with back-boiler. Not ideal.

 

However, I do take your point about a proper installation, and I am sure that Ebers are fine for a few years if properly maintained, and until the capacitors fail.

[blackrose]

 

They are meant to be serviced annually, and the service should include a de-coke. This is especially the case with red diesel. Now that the spec is changed, Ebers should perform much better.

 

 

Clearly not given the problems we still hear about! My Eberspacher instructions never included anything about an annual decoke and the Eberspacher engineer I spoke to at great length at Crick a few years ago never mentioned it either.

 

If you think they are good units on boats you're in a tiny minority, but good luck to you.

 

Well....mine was always fine...although old...and ran continually without problem.

 

I guess its down to...knowing what you are doing...

Not at all. You obviously never read Roger Gunkels thread on the subject. It's the most detailed analysis of the problems with eberspachers theres ever been on this forum. He certainly knew what he was doing.

[George94]

Clearly not given the problems we still hear about! My Eberspacher instructions never included anything about an annual decoke and the Eberspacher engineer I spoke to at great length at Crick a few years ago never mentioned it either.

 

If you think they are good units on boats you're in a tiny minority, but good luck to you.

 

I think they are probably OK if looked after properly, and if fed the right fuel (which is not traditional red diesel). But they are complex, and not easy or cheap to repair.

 

I have just decided to abandon mine, and am deciding what to do instead.

[blackrose]

Exactly so, people keep bringing up old problems like Gunkel's that were all about problems caused by high sulphur diesel red diesel that are no longer relevant, as you say, install it properly, service it properly, set the burn rate properly, give it good fuel, accept its limitations as to use

You mean limitations like it's inherent unreliability... Roger Gunkels problems with these heaters are still highly relevant because they still happen despite lower sulphur diesel. I still meet people who have them professionally serviced by Eberspacher engineers only for them to go wrong again shortly after.

 

I think ebers are expensive to buy, expensive to run and not fit for purpose.

[Orca]

I run my Thermo 90 on a 70/30 mix of Kero/white diesel. My Perkins 3HD46 has no problems with it either - having all come from the same 650 litre fuel tank. It will take a lot for rotary fuel pumps to seize using too much kerosene imo. This Winter I will be dumping 400 litres of pure kero in my tank to keep the Webasto happy - then when the cruising season appears again, stick 200 litres of Tesco's best white in.

 

Also regarding plastic filters, my boat recently passed it's BSS and has those fitted for the Webasto on a separate feed - albeit behind a very thick steel locker.

 

In Summer we rarely use the Webasto, usually the immersion heatercomes into play then. The only time I'll run the 'boiler' up in these months, is if I decide to have a bath - emptying the contents of the calorifier as heated by the 'Webo' into the plunge bath, just prior to it reaching 'set temperature' will result in it keeping going (and thus the process repeating) giving it a jolly good decoke in the process. This, with all 3 rads on as well to help things along (regardless of ambient temerature).

Edited June 5, 2014 by Orca

[George94]

Clearly not given the problems we still hear about! My Eberspacher instructions never included anything about an annual decoke and the Eberspacher engineer I spoke to at great length at Crick a few years ago never mentioned it either.

 

If you think they are good units on boats you're in a tiny minority, but good luck to you.

 

Not at all. You obviously never read Roger Gunkels thread on the subject. It's the most detailed analysis of the problems with eberspachers theres ever been on this forum. He certainly knew what he was doing.

 

Yes, but the problems were largely down to high-sulphur red diesel. That doesn't exist any more. Gunkel on Eber is now redundant

[Bobbybass]

 

 

However, I do take your point about a proper installation, and I am sure that Ebers are fine for a few years if properly maintained, and until the capacitors fail.

 

 

Gosh you are right...

 

At 16 years of continuous use..my Eber's really bad value !!

[Hawkmoth]

 

Well....mine was always fine...although old...and ran continually without problem.

 

I guess its down to...knowing what you are doing...

I'm not sure what you mean by "knowing what you're doing".

There is no way back from failure of the electronic module. It is not, in any way repairable.

I was, until retirement, a maintenance engineer. I was very capable of carrying out all repairs on my D5WSC. These included replacing the heat exchanger, and de-coking it many times.

I do agree that, through ignorance at the time, I was unaware at first that

1) they didn't like old red.

2) they didn't like running light.

They way I used it was as a full central heating system. I was told it should cope. Turns out they can't.

Bob

[Bobbybass]

I'm not sure what you mean by "knowing what you're doing".

There is no way back from failure of the electronic module. It is not, in any way repairable.

I was, until retirement, a maintenance engineer. I was very capable of carrying out all repairs on my D5WSC. These included replacing the heat exchanger, and de-coking it many times.

I do agree that, through ignorance at the time, I was unaware at first that

1) they didn't like old red.

2) they didn't like running light.

They way I used it was as a full central heating system. I was told it should cope. Turns out they can't.

Bob

 

Mine ran an 'old red' all the time..obviously....as that was all that was about at the time..

I used it every day for only calorifier and one bathroom radiator..in the summer..and it switched from full to 'tickover' cycle every day...

I used it for the full heating system in winter...

 

Don't trip over your bottom lip...

[pquinn]

Oh! chubby ,my friend.What have you done?

[Hawkmoth]

 

Mine ran an 'old red' all the time..obviously....as that was all that was about at the time..

I used it every day for only calorifier and one bathroom radiator..in the summer..and it switched from full to 'tickover' cycle every day...

I used it for the full heating system in winter...

 

Don't trip over your bottom lip...

OK, I'm standing on my bottom lip!! But I still hate the damned things. I'm not the only one who has had a lot of trouble with them, and I say again, when the electronic module f****s up that's it. Unless YOU know a way of fixing it.

I reckon you've been lucky with yours, just like "Friday cars" were reputed to give a lot of trouble to their owners, maybe you just got the one where it all came together. Good luck to you.

Bob

[chubby]

Apologies Forumites

 

I only wanted some hot water ...

 

Ebers still going ok .

 

For the purposes of a BSS examination do all the wires / fuse s i replaced need to be stuffed back into the grey eber fusebox ? They take up more space than what was there originally so it will be a squeeze . Or can i just cable tie them neatly together with the fuseholders exposed ?

 

cheers