Navigation lights on a pair

[RLWP]

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf

 

The 'do COLREGS apply on the BCN chestnut turns up regularly

 

They don't

 

Richard

Edited May 8, 2014 by RLWP

[Dharl]

have found a copy dated 1965.....am guessing they have been updated since then?

 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf

have found a copy dated 1965.....am guessing they have been updated since then?

 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf

 

 

Thanks Richard, cross posted!

 

David

[RLWP]

You'll find amendments up to 1975 at the bottom

 

Richard

[Paul C]

 

 

ha ha My Dad was in the RN for a number of years as a Navigator until they found out he was colour blind!! To be fair it was something that developed over the years and was picked up on a routine medical so he got 'promoted' to a shore job instead!

HI Paul,

 

can you point me in the direction of the Canal Lighting Rules? As I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum I am coming from a Deep Sea Background and am learning all the time, but as far as I am aware the COLREGS are applicable for the inland waterways...where a seagoing vessel (does not mention dimensions) could access.

 

Chop btw love the pics on your website! good stuff!

 

I went out to walk the dog, hopefully by now you've had a read through section 10 (2) of the canal byelaws to see that narrow canalboats, on canals (except the exceptions listed), only need a white light at the front.

[Phil Ambrose]

 

I've never heard this interpretation before, as I understood it the relevant navigation authority controls the rules on "their" waters unless an underlying law exists. I can't believe there's a distinction between broad and narrow canals - does this mean Colregs apply on the Shroppie below Nantwich, but not above it (for example)?

 

 

And to add to it, how on earth is one expected to comply with the height requirement of the mast light, with the bridges typically found on many canals? Put the mast up and down repeatedly???

You would only need to do this at night.

Phil

[bottle]

or reduced visibility.

[David Mack]

The relevant section is as follows:-

 

INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS FOR PREVENTING COLLISIONS

 

AT SEA, 1972

PART A

GENERAL

Rule 1

Application

(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

( Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

 

As far as narrow canals are concerned, I suppose it is possible for seagoing vessels to navigate them - so theoretically all inland waterways are covered by the Rules, and although there is provision for local rules as outlined above, they must conform as closely as possible with the Rules.

 

Howard

 

 

 

The BW Bylaws specify what is required on CRT canals and rivers. To the extent that CRT waterways are "connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels" the Bylaws surely count as "special rules made by an appropriate authority" and therefore take priority over COLREGS.

 

I suppose one could argue that BW/CRT are in breach of COLREGS by not amending the Bylaws to conform as closely as possible with the COLREGS rules, but that is not an issue for boaters.

[Paul C]

You would only need to do this at night.

Phil

 

.....or not at all, since the rules for the non-commercial canals don't require it.

[Dharl]

 

I went out to walk the dog, hopefully by now you've had a read through section 10 (2) of the canal byelaws to see that narrow canalboats, on canals (except the exceptions listed), only need a white light at the front.

Thank you Paul,

 

am always happy to be corrected!

 

Also mentions about fenders in there.....however will leave that discussion for else where on the forum

[X Alan W]

tbh on the canals I wouldn't think that the full set of nav lights would be necessary as you are likely to be the only ones moving! Sidelights and a large Headlamp would be of more benefit!! Sounds an exciting trip, though would need more lights / day shapes if proceeding on the Severn. Would recommend that towing on a long tow line would be easier on the open water rather than on short straps or alongside (breasted up).

When I started boating in the late 50`s it was not uncommon to encounter a pair of boats[loaded or other wise] to be boating in the hours of darkness, it was also not to uncommon to see? pairs travelling with no lights at all, if it was moonlight it was more unusual to see a headlamp beam coming towards you, after a year or so I found that I could get along just as well without the lamp [ the boat numbers moored or otherwise were far less than today] Loaded was mostly a long line except were locks were close, empty was cross straps. most of my boating was on narrow canals so breasting up was not really an option Much more a problem to me was when it was icy on the lock sides & gates /balance beams, used to tip the stove ash pan in a pile near the top ground paddles for others to scatter if required [ my wifes scattering of salt on the ice was viewed with a good amount of head scratching & shaking & mutterings of what a waste but was taken up by the odd boating family]

[ditchcrawler]

The point on positioning light is why every new Narrowboat fitted with navigation lights does not comply with the RCD so I don't know why they are allowed to sell them.

[Paul C]

The point on positioning light is why every new Narrowboat fitted with navigation lights does not comply with the RCD so I don't know why they are allowed to sell them.

 

You'll have to clarify (because I can't work it out and don't want to guess) - which point on positioning? The height requirement or something else?

[gazza]

They don't fit easily, its been discussed before but its near impossible to fit nav lamps to a narrow boat that can be seen from the angles and distances required in colregs.

 

The neatest solution is a tricolour mounted on a mast that is high enough for it to have a chance of being any use.

 

Most seem to clap a couple of nav lights at the front of the cabin and are happy with that.

Paulc

 

Copied to save you looking back. Click on the iwa link as well....

Edited May 8, 2014 by gazza

[Keeping Up]

It's only the mast height that is a major problem; you can certainly get port, starboard, steaming lights, and stern lights which meet the required brightness & visibility criteria for full-length narrowboats and are of a suitably small size for mounting on the sides of the cabin and the stern rail. These for example. Note that the PLA accept a reduced height of mast so that you can get under the Thames bridges - but there would be no easy answer to the problem of getting under canal bridges.

[gazza]

This is what the IWA have to say on the matter

 

https://www.waterways.org.uk/boating/navigating_your_boat/vhf/navigation_lights

Here you go Paul.

[Paul C]

So its just the height issue.....and even then, on boats of a certain length.........and on rivers which require it.

 

If the boat is used for canals, there is no height requirement, and the side lights aren't required so it would comply? I've not read the RCD requirements though, maybe DC can clarify what they actually say on lighting for a canal boat?

[gazza]

So its just the height issue.....and even then, on boats of a certain length.........and on rivers which require it.

 

If the boat is used for canals, there is no height requirement, and the side lights aren't required so it would comply? I've not read the RCD requirements though, maybe DC can clarify what they actually say on lighting for a canal boat?

Correct. They are decoration on nearly every boat you will see.

[Paul C]

Correct. They are decoration on nearly every boat you will see.

 

Agree!

 

The most ridiculous one I've seen is a stern light, which was mounted on the back cabin bulkhead of the deck of a semi-trad stern boat, so its viewing angle, rather than 135deg, was more like 20deg!

[gazza]

 

Agree!

 

The most ridiculous one I've seen is a stern light, which was mounted on the back cabin bulkhead of the deck of a semi-trad stern boat, so its viewing angle, rather than 135deg, was more like 20deg!

Handy for getting the right key for the hatch lock when you get back from the pub though.

 

As I said before, a tricolour on a good length mast is the only way to satisfy colregs.

[Keeping Up]

Handy for getting the right key for the hatch lock when you get back from the pub though.

 

As I said before, a tricolour on a good length mast is the only way to satisfy colregs.

 

It doesn't satisfy the colregs for a full-length narrowboat; the use of a single mast is permitted only on boats that are less than 20m in length

[Paul G2]

It's only the mast height that is a major problem; you can certainly get port, starboard, steaming lights, and stern lights which meet the required brightness & visibility criteria for full-length narrowboats and are of a suitably small size for mounting on the sides of the cabin and the stern rail. These for example. Note that the PLA accept a reduced height of mast so that you can get under the Thames bridges - but there would be no easy answer to the problem of getting under canal bridges.

 

Just to split a rather pertinent hair, what you, and others, are saying is that boats that fit on the narrow canals cannot comply with the Colregs because of size constraints. If this is the case, then is it not conversely true that boats that fit on the narrow canals cannot, by definition, be sea-going boats, because they cannot comply with Colregs? If sea-going boats can't navigate the narrow canals, then the narrow canals should be exempt from Colregs.

[Paul C]

 

Just to split a rather pertinent hair, what you, and others, are saying is that boats that fit on the narrow canals cannot comply with the Colregs because of size constraints.

 

Not true, they can comply by having a folding mast which once up, is at the correct height and has a nav light on it. Not the most complicated or expensive thing. However its rarely seen, partly because its irrelivent to 99.9% of boats' usage.

[howardang]

 

Just to split a rather pertinent hair, what you, and others, are saying is that boats that fit on the narrow canals cannot comply with the Colregs because of size constraints. If this is the case, then is it not conversely true that boats that fit on the narrow canals cannot, by definition, be sea-going boats, because they cannot comply with Colregs? If sea-going boats can't navigate the narrow canals, then the narrow canals should be exempt from Colregs.

The trouble with this argument is that there are many seagoing vessels such as work boats - survey craft, small tugs small cruisers etc. , (and are not narrow boats) which can fit on narrow canals and can comply with the Rules, so a blanket exemption for narrow canals would not be applicable.

 

Howard

[nebulae]

The whole point of COLREGS is safety,rather than a topic for argument.Every person in control of any vessel,from canoe to supertanker,should do everything in their power to ensure the safety of themselves and others .If this involves some little trouble in fitting lights if you are likely to navigate any waters where common sense tells you they would improve safety, do it.

[Timleech]

When I started boating in the late 50`s it was not uncommon to encounter a pair of boats[loaded or other wise] to be boating in the hours of darkness, it was also not to uncommon to see? pairs travelling with no lights at all, if it was moonlight it was more unusual to see a headlamp beam coming towards you, after a year or so I found that I could get along just as well without the lamp [ the boat numbers moored or otherwise were far less than today] Loaded was mostly a long line except were locks were close, empty was cross straps. most of my boating was on narrow canals so breasting up was not really an option Much more a problem to me was when it was icy on the lock sides & gates /balance beams, used to tip the stove ash pan in a pile near the top ground paddles for others to scatter if required [ my wifes scattering of salt on the ice was viewed with a good amount of head scratching & shaking & mutterings of what a waste but was taken up by the odd boating family]

 

Agreed, in my yoof I did a fair bit of trip boat steering in the dark, sometimes with passengers but more often returning empty from a trip, and found no lights at all to be best most of the time, with the option of flicking on the headlight to clarify something I wasn't sure of.

 

Certainly no navigation lights, & the (then) Board of Trade definitely didn't require us to have them.

 

Tim

Edited May 8, 2014 by Timleech