Three month narrowboat hire or buy?

[GILow]

Hello, newbie poster from Australia with a question about longer term boat hire.

 

My wife, who is English, suggested we should look at spending three months on the canal system as part of our long service leave, due in a year or two. This would work well as we both love boats, we could catch up with relatives, and we have previously hired a canal boat and we loved the experience.

 

As yet we have not worked out which parts we would like to visit over that time, or at what time of year, but one significant factor will be whether we can hire a boat at a reasonable rate for that period, or if we would be better off buying something and selling it afterwards.

 

We have spent two weeks on a hire boat on the canals near Stratford Upon Avon a few years ago, so we have a bit of experience to base out boat requirements on. We also have an old but comfortable blue water cruising boat at home, so living on boats is something we are comfortable with and we know how to live without lots of STUFF. We are also both very capable of performing repairs and maintenance as we go (old blue water boats need a LOT of that), and one reason we would consider buying a boat is that the boat we hired for our last holiday had a list of niggling faults that we would have fixed had it been our boat, not a hire boat.

 

From this we think a 30 - 35 footer would be more than adequate for us (a fit middle aged couple travelling without the children)

 

So with this in mind, I would love to know whether people can recommend a hire company that might specialise in smaller long term hire boats (I have looked but have not found anyone yet, but part of the problem I face is that I suspect I do not yet understand some of the terminology around the boats in general) or whether we should consider buying a boat for the duration. If the latter, a pointer to calculating the buying and selling costs would be very helpful.

 

Finally, I apologise if this has been asked and answered before, but with my limited grasp of the language of the canals, I have not been able to find an answer to this sort of question so far.

 

Matt

[Alan de Enfield]

Welcome - i'll let the financial experts comment on your buy or rent but I would comment on the size.

 

Remember that a narrowboat is just that - narrow - it is only 6 feet wide. Your Blue-Water boat is probably 12 foot beam ?

 

A 30 footer is tiny - take off a 'fixed' 6 foot for the stern / engine and another 'fixed' 6 foot for the bow, you are left with 18 foot to fit in a bedroom (7 foot ?) a bathroom (4 or 5 foot) a kitchen (5 or 6 foot) and a living/ lounge / dining area (8 foot ?) It doesnt go. !!

The only way to save space is to have a put-up bed that doubles as a settee during the day and you make into a bed at night - its ok for short periods but gets a bit tiresome day after day after day

 

People do live on 30 footers (x 6 foot) but I believe they are mainly 'singles'. I would suggest that to be comfortable you need to be looking at a minimum of 45 foot.

[luctor et emergo]

Welcome - i'll let the financial experts comment on your buy or rent but I would comment on the size.

 

Remember that a narrowboat is just that - narrow - it is only 6 feet wide. Your Blue-Water boat is probably 12 foot beam ?

 

A 30 footer is tiny - take off a 'fixed' 6 foot for the stern / engine and another 'fixed' 6 foot for the bow, you are left with 18 foot to fit in a bedroom (7 foot ?) a bathroom (4 or 5 foot) a kitchen (5 or 6 foot) and a living/ lounge / dining area (8 foot ?) It doesnt go. !!

The only way to save space is to have a put-up bed that doubles as a settee during the day and you make into a bed at night - its ok for short periods but gets a bit tiresome day after day after day

 

People do live on 30 footers (x 6 foot) but I believe they are mainly 'singles'. I would suggest that to be comfortable you need to be looking at a minimum of 45 foot.

Bollocks.. I lived on a boat for three years, in a 14' cabin. No heated water, no shower, no sky tv...

The kettle heats the water, and showers are taken In Motor way services.

[Alan de Enfield]

Each to their own, but I reckon its too small for a 'couple', (and not many motorway services available alongside the cut).

[Grace and Favour]

Welcome to the forum Matt.

 

And I have to agree with Alan de Enfield . . .

 

If you want a comfortable and relaxing few months on the canals, in a narrowboat, I'd suggest that 45' should be the minimum - and, to be honest, if you're puying a boat for a few months, the cost of 45' vs, say, 57' may be damn near identical.

 

I don't know of an hire company that will normally hire boats out for 3 months (not cost-effectively anyway) - although you could always approach the hireboat companies and simply ask them the question - - if any of them are low on bookings, there's nothing to stop them making a special arrangement for you - and you're in a great negotiating position!

[kevinl]

Welcome to the forum Matt.

 

And I have to agree with Alan de Enfield . . .

 

If you want a comfortable and relaxing few months on the canals, in a narrowboat, I'd suggest that 45' should be the minimum - and, to be honest, if you're puying a boat for a few months, the cost of 45' vs, say, 57' may be damn near identical.

 

I don't know of an hire company that will normally hire boats out for 3 months (not cost-effectively anyway) - although you could always approach the hireboat companies and simply ask them the question - - if any of them are low on bookings, there's nothing to stop them making a special arrangement for you - and you're in a great negotiating position!

Agreed 30/35 feet is small, as G&F says 45 might be nearer the mark, I know I have a 30 foot boat.

You could approach someone like Black Prince who have a boat replacement rota which means they know what boats the have for sale and when (usually the end of the season) and see if rather that put it up for sale immediately they'd keep it on the fleet and do a long lease, then sell it after. Buying is easy but you could find it takes ages to sell then get a lot less than you paid. Alternatively there is the private let route try posting in the wanted on here, I know of course no rule bending ever goes on

K

[OldGoat]

There was a thread on here late last year - or early this. IIRC the consensus was that hire companies wont / didn't do that, not least because of the problems in servicing (including call outs) are impracticable over long distances. In two weeks hire you can't go far and so the hire company can reasonably deal with ant problems.

 

The cost of three months would be astronomical - so you're better off buying a boat ion excellent condition from a reputable / competent broker and selling it back at the end of the period.

 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

There was a thread on here late last year - or early this. IIRC the consensus was that hire companies wont / didn't do that, not least because of the problems in servicing (including call outs) are impracticable over long distances. In two weeks hire you can't go far and so the hire company can reasonably deal with ant problems.

 

The cost of three months would be astronomical - so you're better off buying a boat ion excellent condition from a reputable / competent broker and selling it back at the end of the period.

 

 

 

 

Would it be practically possible to buy the boat and sell it back at a previously agreed price, though? We don't know if the OP would be able or willing to wait to get his/her money back after the adventure.

 

I'd be much more inclined to look at the long-term hire option, especially if the proposed three months were outwith the peak summer period. Regarding the long-distance service problem, surely an RCR membership would cover that?

[GILow]

Thank you all, much to digest there...

 

We hired a 60 footer last time, and it seemed enormous to us. I agree that our sailing boat is much beamier, but it's also pointy at the ends (canoe stern), so we lose the first and last 6 feet from each end.

 

Still, point taken, I will go with the experts on size, sounds like 30 - 35 might be something we would regret. I gather a 45 footer would not limit our options much on which bits of the canal we could visit?

 

Matt

 

Would it be practically possible to buy the boat and sell it back at a previously agreed price, though? We don't know if the OP would be able or willing to wait to get his/her money back after the adventure.

 

I'd be much more inclined to look at the long-term hire option, especially if the proposed three months were outwith the peak summer period. Regarding the long-distance service problem, surely an RCR membership would cover that?

 

 

An agreed buyback would be a dream come true, if the price was right, but I can't imagine anyone offering that... still worth checking, I will ask the brokers when I am talking to them.

 

I am resigned to the fact that if we buy we will be selling in a weak position, but we have lots of family in England who might be able to assist. I have no idea of the ongoing storage costs while waiting for the boat to sell, so much more research for me to do.

 

Anyway, at least it SOUNDS like I am not missing something obvious in the way of long term rentals, so it is worth doing more work on the numbers involved in buying and reselling.

 

Thank you all for the pointers so far.

 

Matt

[Grace and Favour]

Hi Matt,

 

You'll find that the largest boat to enable you to access the vast majority of the canals is 57' x 6'10"

 

(and on some canals the beam is important, for some of the older locks will not take anything broader)

[adam1uk]

Apart from anything else, you'll find there's a lot more choice if you look at boats in the region of 57 or 58 ft, because that's the most popular size.

[alan_fincher]

if you have experience of being in a bigger narrow boat in the past, and reckon you could survive 3 months in one no more than 30 to 35 feet, I reckon you are probably correct!

 

Everybody has their different idea of what is "essential" or "desirable", but I know of couples living aboard full time in boats no bigger than this.

 

That said there is not a plentiful supply of such boats either for sale or for hire, so finding something might be trickier than going a bit bigger.

 

I do recall that a forum member did a deal on a fairly long hiring from the firm at Stone, though nothing like 3 months I think. they do (or did) have some very compact boats. Some hire firms are really struggling to get anything like all their boats out, and might be prepared to take guaranteed income at a significantly lower lovel for a long let, (particularly if you could avoid the popular summer school holiday months). You will only find out if you try asking, though!

[Nightwatch]

There is a new thread in the hire section. I think it's Toms Cruisers. Appears they are new, a one man, one boat type of outfit with a very nice older style boat. About £700 a week. Not many bookings at the moment.

 

Might be worth contacting them. Maybe they would appreciate a long term booking to start the ball rolling for them.

 

I have no connection with them.

 

Martyn

[haggis]

if hire companies are reluctant to enter into a long hire contract because of servicing etc difficulties, the answer might be to speak to one of the big companies who have several bases so that you could get servicing and call outs from whichever base was closest. Black prince and Anglo Welsh spring to mind.

 

haggis

[Paul C]

WIth typical costs for summer time hire of £1000 or more, 3 months hire (lets say they give you a 20% discount) will be in the region of £10000. You could buy a boat costing £30000, spend £1500 on it for essentials such as insurance, licence, gas, diesel, one or two things that break during the 3 months, etc and realistically sell it for £25000. I assume if you're going to be living on it and using it for the 3 months, then you don't really need a mooring so a CC licence (declaration). So it seems on first appraisal that for the length of time you're thinking of, buying then selling makes sense.

 

Thus, my advice would spend a little more on a reasonable boat with no massive issues, which is a decent size (45-57 foot, probably), and which will be easy/attractive to sell on.

[jonk]

http://etrr.co.uk/

They might be able to help at a reasonable price although 3 months might be too short.

 

Good Luck

John

[OldGoat]

WIth typical costs for summer time hire of £1000 or more, 3 months hire (lets say they give you a 20% discount) will be in the region of £10000. You could buy a boat costing £30000, spend £1500 on it for essentials such as insurance, licence, gas, diesel, one or two things that break during the 3 months, etc and realistically sell it for £25000. I assume if you're going to be living on it and using it for the 3 months, then you don't really need a mooring so a CC licence (declaration). So it seems on first appraisal that for the length of time you're thinking of, buying then selling makes sense.

 

Thus, my advice would spend a little more on a reasonable boat with no massive issues, which is a decent size (45-57 foot, probably), and which will be easy/attractive to sell on.

 

 

That's precisely the type of point I was trying to make (but too lazy to put any flesh on it).

However, the OP is looking two years ahead so doing too much detailed work at this time might be a waste of energy - Still worth collecting info, though.

 

Sudden thought:-

Many of the majors, Oxfordshire NBs, Black Prince etc do regularly flush their boats out and exploring (!) on the basis of taking one of those in partial for sale conditrion but at a block price (or whatever) might be the more sensible way to proceed - especially if it's in the off or near off-season 'cos the company would have the boat hanging around for six months anyway.

I plug OX nbs. 'cos the s/h boats are usually in good condition - some other fleets are not, sadly.....

 

I know of some super ex hbire boats for sale, but don't think they want to wait that long. If the OP likes to PM me with a serious proposal, I'll pass it on.

 

One final jibe - In two years we don't know what state the canals will be in.........

[Neil2]

If you are used to the pitfalls of boat ownership it's a no brainer to me. Buying and selling there's no way you would lose the amount of money it would cost to hire a boat for three months, you could conceivably get your money back and if you are a real optimist you might even come out ahead.

 

But I agree anything under 40 foot is just too small, and the only real advantage of a small boat is the initial purchase cost. If that's not an issue I would look at boats around 45 foot. Boats at this length and over generally have a reasonable sized lounge which is important if you are going to spend three months continuous cruising.

 

 

[Odana]

Sheffield Narrowboat only do long-term hire http://www.sheffieldnarrowboats.com/about. Good bloke, Martin who runs it.

Just seen on site they are booked to 2017. But he might be able to recommend somewhere else similar.

[alan_fincher]

To respond to one point, I think any sensible hire business prepared to do a long term hire would give you far more of a doiscount than 20% over normal weekly hire costs. Having talked to some hire boat operators, even selling boats on last minute bargain deals, many have half their fleet still on dock, unlet.

I'm sure I have seen 50% discounts just for a second week of hiring, so I would say any outfit stuggling to let out all itsd fleet, (and there are a lot of them!) should seriosly consider the advantages of a 3 month let, even if at say 50% of normal hire charges.

It would still be expensive, though - no doubt about that.

The servicing issue though is harder to solve, as in that time if you use it extensively, it will probably need oil changes, and the like. If you ambled back to the strt point say every month, it should be fine, but I doubt they would want you just using it for 3 months unseen by them. It is true that the majors have multiple bases, but I rather suspect they will be the ones less willing to do this kind of deal, but again, you don't know unless you ask!

http://etrr.co.uk/

They might be able to help at a reasonable price although 3 months might be too short.

 

Good Luck

John

Most boats seem to say "All bookings should be for 4 months or longer".

[Paul C]

To respond to one point, I think any sensible hire business prepared to do a long term hire would give you far more of a doiscount than 20% over normal weekly hire costs. Having talked to some hire boat operators, even selling boats on last minute bargain deals, many have half their fleet still on dock, unlet.

 

 

 

I was going to estimate at more than 20% but then I thought about it and stuck with 20%. Given that many (successful) hire boat firms can hire a boat out in summer for 80-90% of the time, they'd be daft to give too much a discount just because its long term - they could have the boat out week-on-week and make more money. Longer term hire for a firm set up for 1 or 2 week hires poses a number of issues, for example what happens when a gas bottle runs out? Do they pay someone else's retail price, or make a 100 mile trip with their wholesale-priced bottle? What about laundry of the bedding? What about stern grease if it runs out, or if/when a service becomes due? What if, at the end of the 3 month hire, you're (instead of 1-2 crusing days short of returning to base) you're 2 weeks cruising distance from the base? etc etc

 

What if the boat is re-sold in that time? Or repainted then resold? What if the engine throws a rod?

[alan_fincher]

I don't think many hire boat firms are currently managing to achieve 80% to 90% letting of their boats over any 3 month period.

 

That's not to say none are, with their more popular boats, but I suspect many have boats on the fleet they have not actually decomissioned, where they would be overjoyed to hit such a statistic.

 

When the time is near, (and assuming they can avoid the most popular period), I think OP should talk to a few fleets, particularly the small independents.

 

I realise it is not without issues, but if someone can afford to buiy a boat outright, they could presumably make over a surety to the hire firm big enough to give some confidence they were not going to abscond with it. Or the hire firm could place a requirement that a picture of it gets mailed in every two weeks at a recognisable location, including in shot a copy of a newspaper from the day, to prove it is not a photo taken weeks earlier! (Tongue slighly in cheek, but many things are possible!).

One of our local hire firms I understand has a boat on long term hire to CRT (or maybe one of their contractors), so it is by no means guaranteed they expect every boat currently on the fleet to otherwise be fully in use for short term hirings.

[GILow]

http://etrr.co.uk/

They might be able to help at a reasonable price although 3 months might be too short.

 

Good Luck

John

VERY promising, thank you.

Hi Matt,

 

You'll find that the largest boat to enable you to access the vast majority of the canals is 57' x 6'10"

 

(and on some canals the beam is important, for some of the older locks will not take anything broader)

Thank you, that's good to know. I didn't realise the boats could be that big and still compatible with the majority of the canals.

[Burgiesburnin]

Living away from the UK but canal cruising once a year is very expensive if from a country with a weak exchange rate.

I don't mind paying at all and consider the times we spend on the canals as real value for my money.

Conventional boat ownership from thousands of miles away is not practical. My wife and I are still working and not yet ready to retire. Holidays are usually three weeks or so at a time.

The next alternative would be to buy boat share or shares. I have recently looked at a few schemes and shares available but non so far have allowed (according to the rules) for a full members weeks to be taken consecutively. I have looked at buying say two or even three shares in the same boat. I am sure that if I could contact all the owners in a boat then maybe I could get a fair amount of weeks joined together if I was flexible on the time of year. However, I could not expect this cooperation long term or even again the following year, this wouldn't be fair.

Does anyone know of a boat share scheme that accommodates longer consecutive usage. A boat with say 6 owners with an entitlement of 7 or 8 weeks would be great.

Maybe starting my own shared ownership boat should be considered?

[haggis]

I think you could probably get other shared boat owners to agree to 3 consecutive weeks but not 7 or 8 which would virtually wipe out the use of the boat during a popular cruising time for the other owners - spring, summer and autumn. Now, if you want your 7 weeks in winter, it might be more achievable..

 

haggis