Are People Who Live On Boats Second Class Citizens?

[carlt]

 

 

 

1st party or not recent experience is more relevant in this case that 13 year old experience - unless you're suggesting i'm making it up with your 'vague anecdote' wording'? I could give you the names of the people i'm talking about that would be an invasion of their privacy

I would suggest that the time passed is irrelevant if there has been no census in between the one I referred to and the one you did.

 

If there had been several censuses demonstrating a change in practices then you could have been right but there seems to be little change from what information I can glean (and comments from others in this thread) between the first census of this century and the second...apart from forms being available at BW offices of course.

 

I don't believe you are making anything up by the way but you do not appear to have all the facts available to you whereas I am speaking from personal experience.

[GUMPY]

At the last census they came round the local moorings twice as well as knocking on every boat on the towpath must have been your local area operatives not doing their job properly

[NigelMoore]

The first posting seems to be a reaction to #438, primarily, of the Eviction thread to which the OP refers. The key phrase that would have prompted this topic, I suspect, being “We KNOW that if we live on a boat, we have few rights...so why suddenly think we have found a 'chink' and we should have rights, I don't know.” It is that seeming acceptance of being a lesser protected member of society that probably triggered the query.

 

The subject of ‘rights’ is an interesting one. What I have learned over the years is that regardless of what statutory rights members of society may have, the rights, pragmatically speaking, do not exist unless you know of and can enforce them. That applies ‘across the board’ of society at all levels.

 

Whilst some have correctly observed that there are areas in which boaters have missed out on legislative protections that are available to land-based accommodation [even the itinerant versions], it might be interesting to consider a balancing part of the picture, wherein those on boats have more rights and protections [supposing they are known and fought for] than those in land-based accommodation.

 

One of the common misconceptions of society in general, for example, is entrenched within the phrase “an Englishman’s home is his castle”. It just is not so. There are, as a TV program [was it with Esther Rantzen?] highlighted one year in song, an inordinate number of people who have “statutory right of entry to your home”.

 

A Home office Report published in 2008 revealed that there are 1,043 such powers of entry [without warrant or owner permission] into your land-based premises. –

 

http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/BargingIn.pdf

 

By contrast, there are very few people empowered to board your boat, and those who are, may do so only under very strict conditions. Anyone outside of that class of authorised persons who steps aboard your boat [supposing it to be boat within a UK port and which is wholly owned by a UK citizen] without your permission commits a summary offence. If such a person refuses to disembark on your request, you have the power to arrest and detain them yourself.

 

It is astonishing how many boaters sincerely believe that BW/CaRT officials have automatic rights to board your boat anytime they please without notice, and without your say-so, when in fact they may do so under one particular circumstance only. Even the police have to have very specific justifications for boarding your boat [although the Prevention of Terrorism Act gives wide latitude].

 

But as I said at the beginning, if you don’t know your rights and/or are unprepared to exercise them, then in practical terms you don’t have any - anymore than anyone else has. In essence, your 'class' of citizenship [in terms of statutory protections] is determined more by your readiness to learn your rights and fight for them if needed, than by what legislature exists.

 

The fact that some postings apparently promoted the ethic of voluntarily sublimating what few rights one might have in the broader public interest of strengthening the authority's financial position, certainly justifies the OP's perplexity.

[NigelMoore]

Found a bit of the song -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeiL4M81Q9Q

[waterwitch]

I have been a liveaboard for more than twenty years (both sea going and inland waters) and have never considered myself to be a second class citizen. Anyone giving me the impression that they disagree with this is given short shrift.

 

Suze...stroppy, post menopausal old bat.

[Emerald Fox]

Boaters on canals in the Crimea have more rights!

[carlt]

Boaters on canals in the Crimea have more rights!

 

So what rights did I actually lose when I lived aboard because, having moved back ashore, I didn't the yolk of oppression suddenly lifted from my shoulders.

 

I did notice the loss of liberty that comes with owning a front door with a letter box in it, however.

[LoneWolf]

I would suggest that the time passed is irrelevant if there has been no census in between the one I referred to and the one you did.

 

If there had been several censuses demonstrating a change in practices then you could have been right but there seems to be little change from what information I can glean (and comments from others in this thread) between the first census of this century and the second...apart from forms being available at BW offices of course.

 

I don't believe you are making anything up by the way but you do not appear to have all the facts available to you whereas I am speaking from personal experience.

 

ah ok i see where we may be differing - procedures may not have changed but the way they are carried out i think have - like fewer people on the towpath and a call center that cant cope with no fixed address

 

You're right about lack of information though - I was aware the census was happening and was keeping half an eye out for towpath organisers but I had no idea that it was up to me to make sure i got on the census and it was a criminal offence not to until i read it on here - apparently there were loads of adverts about it on the telly but since i don't have one the message passed me by.

 

At the last census they came round the local moorings twice as well as knocking on every boat on the towpath must have been your local area operatives not doing their job properly

 

They may have visited moorings up here but I never saw a single organiser - perhaps they just stuck to the towns & villages and not the bits in between

 

 

 

It's just occurred to me that we're way off topic - being on the census or not isn't indicative of being 'second class' (whatever that means)

 

I think voting is far more important - I looked into how to vote at the last election. It's not difficult to declare yourself as having an interest in the area despite not having an address there so you can vote - the problem is that this gets you recorded as NFA and as (parts?) of the electoral role are available to and scrutinised by credit agencies I decided not to.

I don't know if the Credit Agencies get access to the NFA part of the electoral role or not and the electoral person i spoke to didn't know or couldn't tell me but this does seem to be one area where boaters with no residential address could be at a disadvantage

[carlt]

 

ah ok i see where we may be differing - procedures may not have changed but the way they are carried out i think have -

Only in your experience (or rather the experience of a few people you know)

 

Evidently other people have had similar experiences to my ancient (though apparently not so outdated) one.

[LoneWolf]

Only in your experience (or rather the experience of a few people you know)

 

Evidently other people have had similar experiences to my ancient (though apparently not so outdated) one.

 

isn't that what this discussion forum is about - sharing our own (and a few people we know ) experiences - i could hardly post about your experiences could i?

[carlt]

i could hardly post about your experiences could i?

No but you can attempt to dismiss them based on a few other peoples'.

 

As to the "lack of information" comment...Information was available not a million miles away:

 

If you are interested in getting a census then I phoned them up and they will post it to somewhere else

 

More information here:

 

http://help.census.gov.uk/england/help/help-and-information/Aboutthequestions/PropertiescoveredbytheCensus/Topics/Mobilehouseholds.html

 

Tim

Tim's link is (fairly obviously) is now long dead but the Wayback Machine gives us this:

 

Mobile households

 

If your household is mobile, or you move from address to address or place to place, we can count you in the 2011 Census.

 

If your usual residence isn't in a fixed place, for example if you live on a boat which isn't moored, you can have your questionnaire sent to an address for you to collect.

 

This address could be the home of a relative or friend, or a PO Box number. Please contact the census helpline to arrange this.

 

You will need to:

• give information about your usual residence, for example the name of the boat and your current location, and

• give details, including postcode, of the address to which we can send your questionnaire

 

Once you pick up your questionnaire, you will need to complete the blank address detail box on the front. Please give location details for where your residence was on census night, Sunday 27 March.

 

Edited March 20, 2014 by carlt

[DeanS]

As boaters (livaboards) aren't we by design opting out of mainstream citizenship and opting into our own subcategory of society?

Can we or is this subcategory subject to even trying to attain a position on the ladder that mainstream society is busy climbing?

 

I live on a boat because mainstream society is lost. Boat living has brought me closer to people (boaters around me), and returning to the marina it's heartwarming to see the smoke from all the boats, and be able to name every one of my neighbours. I once worked for a corporate enterprise where it was all about yearly assessments , and your "grade". Thank God I escaped I see myself as someone who has moved up, not down, as a human "class"

 

 

and...Brian is the guy I get my coal and gas from

and...Malcolm supplies my diesel when cruising..

and...Ben keeps an eye on our marina...

 

In a house I had no idea of the name of the person supplying me with services...just some big brand name.

Edited March 20, 2014 by DeanS

[carlt]

 

I live on a boat because mainstream society is lost. Boat living has brought me closer to people (boaters around me), and returning to the marina it's heartwarming to see the smoke from all the boats, and be able to name every one of my neighbours.

How sad for you.

 

I know the names of all of my neighbours, 3 or 4 doors either side and across the road and can rely on them for help, if I needed it as they can come to me, if necessary too.

 

My neighbours either side have a spare key to my house (I am notorious for not picking mine up on the way out) and I have one for their houses. too.

 

Most of the street now has central heating so you rarely see smoke from the chimneys....Does that mean society is dead here and the residents just haven't spotted it yet?

[LoneWolf]

No but you can attempt to dismiss them based on a few other peoples'.

 

As to the "lack of information" comment...Information was available not a million miles away:

 

Tim's link is (fairly obviously) is now long dead but the Wayback Machine gives us this:

 

Mobile households

 

If your household is mobile, or you move from address to address or place to place, we can count you in the 2011 Census.

 

If your usual residence isn't in a fixed place, for example if you live on a boat which isn't moored, you can have your questionnaire sent to an address for you to collect.

 

This address could be the home of a relative or friend, or a PO Box number. Please contact the census helpline to arrange this.

 

You will need to:

• give information about your usual residence, for example the name of the boat and your current location, and

• give details, including postcode, of the address to which we can send your questionnaire

 

Once you pick up your questionnaire, you will need to complete the blank address detail box on the front. Please give location details for where your residence was on census night, Sunday 27 March.

 

 

But that is not what happened in practice - they were told a form could not be sent to an address that had already received one.

[Ssscrudddy]

So have you decided to stop voting for the Conservative party then?

 

Anyway, I would look at the OP's point from the other side. A lot of "stuff" we have is held only tenuously and can be removed from us if we run up debts etc, or even by theft. Houses are an exception to that, not the norm - they are given extraordinary additional protection compared to other stuff. So you can make your mind up whether you want to take advantage of that extra protection (ie live in a house) or not (ie live on a boat). But I don't think it's reasonable to expect that if you decide to say live in a tent on a common, that you should have the same protections as someone in a house. Life just ain't like that. This only makes you a second class citizen if you want it to.

 

Why on earth would I not vote conservative?

The last time I voted conservative was 1987

 

[carlt]

 

But that is not what happened in practice - they were told a form could not be sent to an address that had already received one.

In your very limited experience.

 

Thanks for that - we phoned them today. It took a while to get through and then make them understand that our present location (a towpath mooring in the middle of nowhere) doesn't have a street name or a post code. Our questionnaire is on it's way to a relation's address.

Others fared better.

[LoneWolf]

 

In your very limited experience.

 

Others fared better.

 

 

well there you go (you are putting a lot of search effort into this discussion)

 

i didn't claim my experience was extensive - everyones experience is limited when it comes to censuss (censi?) as there are not that often

 

I forgot to say earlier, I wasn't intending to dismiss your experience, sorry if you thought so - just to point out that things change a lot in 13 years.

Anyway, thanks for keeping me amused during the frustrations of the 'booking appointments at your convenience' nhs experience

[Ssscrudddy]

Talking of Census (why are we talking of the census, is there 1 due?) I like this

A warrant is out for a New Plymouth woman who allegedly failed to fill in her census forms and instead wrote obscenities over them.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/census-objector-run-5870001

[carlt]

well there you go (you are putting a lot of search effort into this discussion)

I felt I needed to as you were so sure you were right (despite putting no effort at all into it).

 

It isn't that hard to find old threads though.

 

You said my experience was irrelevant which I evidently misinterpreted as you dismissing it for which I apologise (though I'm still not sure what other interpretation I could arrive at).

 

Anyway, thanks for keeping me amused...

You are very welcome. Always happy to entertain and educate.

[mark99]

Hudson Owner:

 

"I look up to him because he is a homeowner, but I look down on him because he has a scruffy boat".

 

Springer owner:

 

"I know my place".

[Starcoaster]

Springer Owner:

 

"Kiss my pikey arse."

Edited March 20, 2014 by Starcoaster

[LoneWolf]

I felt I needed to as you were so sure you were right (despite putting no effort at all into it).

 

It isn't that hard to find old threads though.

 

You said my experience was irrelevant which I evidently misinterpreted as you dismissing it for which I apologise (though I'm still not sure what other interpretation I could arrive at).

 

 

You are very welcome. Always happy to entertain and educate.

 

worth the effort then eh. I'm glad you did because i'm genuinely puzzled now. 3 people (actually one was a couple so we'll say 2) told me their stories separately (and as far as i know they dont know each other)

the first asked it to be sent post restrante (our conversation was about not using Audlem PO cos of the stroppiness of the guy there) to Nantwich & when i caught up with her a bit later she said they wouldnt send it there

The couple had arranged with a pub to get theirs sent there but were told the pub had already been sent one & they couldn't send another

 

Did i say irrelevant? Well i shall withdraw it then and apologise

Talking of Census (why are we talking of the census, is there 1 due?) I like this

 

A warrant is out for a New Plymouth woman who allegedly failed to fill in her census forms and instead wrote obscenities over them.

 

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/census-objector-run-5870001

 

That's New Plymouth in New Zealand mind ...

[mark99]

Springer Owner:

 

"Kiss my pikey arse."

 

 

lol. greenie.

[Pykebird]

Springer Owner:

 

"Kiss my pikey arse."

If you must!

[Jerra]

 

But that is not what happened in practice - they were told a form could not be sent to an address that had already received one.

Perhaps they didn't make it clear that it was because of the mobile "home" situation and merely asked for it to be sent to a c/o address?