buyers survey,why?

[paneuro]

i'm new to narrowboating,and have learned a lot in a short time,what i can't get my head around is why the buyer should sort surveys,etc out when the onus should surely be on the seller to prove the condition of the boat he is asking at the least several thousands for.it's like buying a car/van/bike etc and the seller telling you it's up to you to get it M.O.T'd,!If money was really tight you could "hope for the best"and not have a survey,buy a load of trouble and the seller's skipping all the way to the bank.rediculous in my opinion,i wonder how many buyers have been stitched up by "legal thieves"

[eightpot]

Caveat Emptor.

 

You have to satisfy yourself that the boat is "as described" - would you really trust a survey commissioned by the vendor? I know I wouldn't.

[paneuro]

that's surely like saying it's not worth the paper it's written on ,isn't it a legal document?

[Grace and Favour]

i'm new to narrowboating,and have learned a lot in a short time,what i can't get my head around is why the buyer should sort surveys,etc out when the onus should surely be on the seller to prove the condition of the boat he is asking at the least several thousands for.it's like buying a car/van/bike etc and the seller telling you it's up to you to get it M.O.T'd,!If money was really tight you could "hope for the best"and not have a survey,buy a load of trouble and the seller's skipping all the way to the bank.rediculous in my opinion,i wonder how many buyers have been stitched up by "legal thieves"

When one buys an house, the buyer arranges a survey to determine the condition of the place (unless it's a cash purchase, and one's prepared to gamble!)

that's surely like saying it's not worth the paper it's written on ,isn't it a legal document?

No, it isn't!

[Richard10002]

You are very naeive aren't you how could you know how well the buyer knows the surveyor, or how much work the broker points to the surveyor - its a bit like having accountants paid by the FTSE 100 companies produce their accounts, and state that they are a fair representation.... You're not going to bite the hand that feeds you, and all that.

[paneuro]

can't believe it !why bother ?keep your dough and hope for the best? yeah right!

without getting into any argumentative posts here i still find it hard to believe there is no legal document covering the buyer with so much money involved and never will.

[MtB]

can't believe it !why bother ?keep your dough and hope for the best? yeah right!

without getting into any argumentative posts here i still find it hard to believe there is no legal document covering the buyer with so much money involved and never will.

 

 

I'm not sure why you're asking if you're going to argue with the answers you're getting!

 

 

MtB

[eightpot]

can't believe it !why bother ?keep your dough and hope for the best? yeah right!

without getting into any argumentative posts here i still find it hard to believe there is no legal document covering the buyer with so much money involved and never will.

 

 

On the other hand, you don't have to get a survey. It is your money you're gambling after all.

[paneuro]

how can anyone agree with a system where there is not only no legal certificate of condition but not even and more unbelievably a certificate of ownership !

does anyone see what i'm getting at or have you all got that much money or trust in your fellow man?

[patty-ann]

As far as I see it, if buying a boat I would want peace of mind so would pay for a survey. I viewed a lot of second hand boats before settling on a sailaway, one of my main reasons for doing this was so that I could be sure of what I was getting. I have visited my boat weekly since construction started and I have seen how its all gone together and I have peace of mind.

[KJT]

how can anyone agree with a system where there is not only no legal certificate of condition but not even and more unbelievably a certificate of ownership !

 

It's not that much different to buying a car. An MOT test certificate is valid for twelve months, sometimes longer. But only reflects the condition of the vehicle on the day of the test. Would you rely on the test certificate only? That's why it is strongly recommended that you have your own, independent pre-purchase survey done.

 

Even cars don't have a certificate of ownership. Only the registered keeper. Not the same thing.

 

It can be a mine field determining who actually owns the boat. Most owners will keep a paper trail of the ownership of the boat, previous bills of sale, receipts for work done, mooring fee invoice if kept in a marina for example. It is really up to you as the purchaser to satisfy yourself as to the provinence of your prospective purchase.

 

 

does anyone see what i'm getting at or have you all got that much money or trust in your fellow man?

It's because most of us don't have that much money that taking sensible precautions is advisable. If such precautions cost money, as in a proper survey, then it's money well spent in my view. The cost of the survey could well be offset by obtaining a reduction in the purchase price by the surveyor finding hidden defects not readily apparent to the untrained eye.

 

'Caveat Emptor' as they say.

 

Ken

[kevinl]

I bought a house, I paid for the survey, I bought a car and I paid the AA to inspect that too, if the seller had shown me a survey I'd still have gone ahead and got my own done anyway, how could I trust one from the seller? If I pay for the survey and it turns out to have missed something I have some come back on the surveyor as I paid him/her if I used a sellers survey I have no come back as I'm not the surveyor's customer so what I have to rely on the seller to do it for me, anyway what if the seller may be a mate of his.

Boats do have something comparable to a car's MOT it's a BSS but like a car MOT it guarantees nothing it just tells you that the things on a list meet the required standard on the day it tells you nothing about the condition of the car/boat.

I'd quite happily get in my car or boat and go anywhere, as far as I'm aware both are in perfect mechanical condition, however, for all I know some small important part is on the verge of failure and I could sell them to you in all good faith but I can't guarantee anything al I can say is hand on heart I don't know about it.

There must be boats for sale that have bee surveyed by a number of buyers and turned out to be faulty, there is nothing to stop anyone keeping it on the market until a mug comes along and buys it but if I did get a negative survey on a boat and put it on here to warn others what would happen, would that even be allowed?

K

[Paul C]

The point is if you get your own survey, you have a contract with the surveyor. So if something he says was good, later fails, you have a comeback (and surveyors have insurance for this). However the survey tends to be written in such a way to cover his arse, payouts don't happen often. Another point is the buyer doing the survey means he can use it to find faults which weren't detailed in the advert or previously obvious, and use it as a bargaining point on the purchase price. Most people who get a survey done, get more than the money back by an increased bargaining power. And those who don't, get a good boat! There are a handful of people who get a survey and it reveals so much that they don't go ahead and buy that boat - you might say they've lost out, but they've probably saved more money in the long run than not getting a survey.

 

Regarding proof of ownership/money owing etc, there is no formal record so alternate ways of proving ownership are needed. For example, boat's history with a bunch of receipts for work done, licence letters in the sellers name & address, insurance letters etc etc.

 

Of course, you could be very cautious and not buy a boat at all, if you're not happy with the way things are done on the inland waterways.....but you might be missing out!

[Naughty Cal]

can't believe it !why bother ?keep your dough and hope for the best? yeah right!

without getting into any argumentative posts here i still find it hard to believe there is no legal document covering the buyer with so much money involved and never will.

 

We had our boat surveyed even though it was only five years old. The surveyor found enough faults to more than cover the cost of the survey a few times over.

 

As our boat was a stock boat the broker fixed all of these faults at their expense. Had we been buying from an individual it would have given us more bargaining power on the price.

 

As we were parting with a lot of cash it was important to us that we knew what we were buying.

[boots]

If you rely on the 'sellers survey' you do not know what brief they gave the surveyor. I don't believe there is such a thing as a standard survey on which you could then rely on what had been inspected.

 

Remember once seeing a survey which had recommended a degree of plating which had then been done. However, later conversations with the surveyor revealed that he had not had access to the baseplate and yet fully expected that this would have needed replaying also - this would not have been known had we just relied on the paperwork.

 

For our boat (2years old) the cost of the survey was more than covered by the faults he discovered and reduction in price as a result of...

[Guest]

how can anyone agree with a system where there is not only no legal certificate of condition but not even and more unbelievably a certificate of ownership !

does anyone see what i'm getting at or have you all got that much money or trust in your fellow man?

 

Not really no.

 

In general the system works very well, including the fact that there is no real documentary proof of ownership like a house.

 

Instances of people getting caught out by this would appear to be pretty rare (though of course it could and I'm sure it has happened)

 

You seem to be concerned about something that doesn't really need fixing. As others have said the buyer normally arranges (and pays for) a survey for other major purchases such as a house, why should a boat be any different?

[luctor et emergo]

without getting into the fray, I can see how Surveyors don't want to move towards a 'Buyer Arranged Survey', backed by a common standard that must be adhered to, because it means that they only get to do one survey on any boat for sale. What is more profitable than copy pasting the results of last weeks survey, when only the date etc particulars need to be amended. I'm sure that some popular boats with several potential buyers, get surveyed several times in a short period of time. And they would loose the ability to hide behind an encyclopaedia of get out clauses...

 

just saying, like

[Tony Brooks]

can't believe it !why bother ?keep your dough and hope for the best? yeah right!

without getting into any argumentative posts here i still find it hard to believe there is no legal document covering the buyer with so much money involved and never will.

 

The boat is legally required to be as described but that falls down when you find it is not as described or the description is "optimistic" rather than a provable lie. Even then you are very likely to be on your own in obtaining redress. Trading Standards/consumer direct/citizens advice (whoever that latest body charged with consumer protection is) have along and honourable track record in helping individual consumers who have perfectly valid cases so it is up to you.

 

Ignore a survey, hope for the best and if the worst happens you either just out up with it or start spending legal fees that there is a good chance you will never get back .

 

Otherwise do all you can to ensure the description is true by having a survey and I would advise a BSS inspection.

[Dekazer]

how can anyone agree with a system where there is not only no legal certificate of condition but not even and more unbelievably a certificate of ownership !

does anyone see what i'm getting at or have you all got that much money or trust in your fellow man?

 

Maybe so, maybe not, but most of us have boats

[Neil2]

Being completely objective maybe there is something to be said for loading some responsibility onto the seller, after all a boat is an expensive, and if it goes wrong, potentially catastrophic purchase.

 

The difficulty is how this could be achieved within the industry as it is at present.

 

For it to mean anything there would at least have to be some quality standard for surveyors deemed suitable to carry out condition surveys - more bureaucracy - but how long would such a survey be valid for?

 

For example, up here in Scotland we still have home condition surveys but it is a joke - there is no "shelf life" as such, so the house we bought had a survey that was five years old - still valid but pretty much worthless to us. A condition survey on a boat would "go off" a lot quicker, so it has limited value unless there is a further responsibility to keep it updated - it's just not practical is it.

[BargeeSpud]

Can't see the point in demanding legal documents of condition where such documents don't actually exist, in actuality or in law. Well, I suppose the BSS could fall into the "MOT" type of document. Besides, as has already been said, you're not forced into getting a survey, same as there is no liability on the seller to provide you with one. You are still covered by the sale of goods act & you do still have legal redress if you find something about the boat that wasn't as described to you by the seller.

 

Save your heartbeats mate or if you feel that strongly about it, start a campaign to introduce such legal documents into the buying process of boats. Good luck with that.

[paneuro]

i can understand all of your views ,you all obviously have forgotten more than i will ever know about narrowboating and what goes with it,my main concern is that from what i can see,you could buy a boat privately for let's just say £30000,trust the seller when he says the boat is his,then find out that it isn't because there is no certificate of ownership to prove otherwise.does anyone have any experience of this happening? and where do you stand if it does in regard to the law and proceedures of reimbursment because i would have thought a court of law would think anyone parting with such an amount of money without a bonafide reciept of ownership would be lacking in the grey matter.

[KJT]

I think you've answered your own question.

 

As has been mentioned before, it's your money you are potentially putting at risk. It's really up to you to satisfy yourself as far as is possible that you are not being taken for a ride. If you want to take a boat (and owner) at face value, then that's up to you. If you wish to be diligent, and seek professional advice, that's also up to you.

Although there maybe (the operative word being maybe), some kind of legal redress if things go wrong, do you really want to put yourself in that position?

 

Just remember there are plenty of boats on the market. You can always look elsewhere.

Edited February 25, 2014 by NB Ellisiana

[Machpoint005]

Common sense and evidence go an awfully long way. However, at the end of the process it's a simple weighing up of the risks. Spend 30k on a boat and risk having to fork out another few thousand (at least) when something is awry. Pay an insurance policy of a few hundred quid (the survey) and if something nasty is found, you have spent a few hundred, not several thousand, and you can walk away. Alternatively you can negotiate based on the likely costs of rectification -- and you can STILL walk away if the deal cannot be struck.

[Alan de Enfield]

Common sense and evidence go an awfully long way. However, at the end of the process it's a simple weighing up of the risks. Spend 30k on a boat and risk having to fork out another few thousand (at least) when something is awry. Pay an insurance policy of a few hundred quid (the survey) and if something nasty is found, you have spent a few hundred, not several thousand, and you can walk away. Alternatively you can negotiate based on the likely costs of rectification -- and you can STILL walk away if the deal cannot be struck.

 

T'other side of the coin (from personal experience) - pay £1000 for a survey (Engine & Hull), gets clean bill of health, buy boat, 1 week later find it needs £20,000 spending on it, approach surveyor who says "I canot comment on anything I cannot see, I do not lift carpet or look behind cupboards, do not unscrew oil filler, etc etc - the survey is valid for the one day only, contacted a "Marine Solicitor" to be told no case as surveyor has all the 'outs' and no case to answer.

 

Not happy.