Can anyone identify this motor please?

[cheshire~rose]

I have just purchased this scanned image which it is thought was taken in the 1950's.

 

 

It is of a pair of BW boats, the butty is quite plainly "Dawley" but can anyone identify the motor?

 

The reason I ask is that Python was paired with Dawley in 1952 and so there is just a passing chance that the motor in this image could be Python. Maybe someone can identyfy the steerers? Perhaps an identification of the area where the photo was taken might help?

 

I realise the image is not very clear but there I never cease to be amazed at how knowledgable many of the people of the forum are when identifying boats from grainy old images so I thought I would just throw this into the ring and see if any of you can start to make any suggestions........ Any help is much appreciated. Even if it cannot be identified or, is identified as different boat then it is still, in my opinion, a lovely image of Dawley and so was still worth buying as Dawley is part of Python's history

[pete harrison]

It is of a pair of BW boats, the butty is quite plainly "Dawley" but can anyone identify the motor?

 

The reason I ask is that Python was paired with Dawley in 1952 and so there is just a passing chance that the motor in this image could be Python. Maybe someone can identyfy the steerers? Perhaps an identification of the area where the photo was taken might help?

Based on the early 'British Waterways' livery of the motor in the photograph and the docking dates for PYTHON and DAWLEY I do not think this is PYTHON.

 

From the shape of the counter it looks very much like a 'Yarwood' built motor and the 'British Waterways' fleet list dated 25 October 1949 lists the pair KESTREL and DAWLEY, with J. Fitchford Snr. as the Steerer. KESTREL was docked at Saltley in March 1949 and DAWLEY was docked at the same place a month earlier, which would put them both in this early 'British Waterways' livery.

 

DAWLEY was transferred onto the Paddington - Cowley traffic some time between September 1952 and November 1953, and never returned to long distance work.

 

edit - from the condition of the paint on DAWLEY I would date this photograph to 1950.

Edited November 15, 2013 by pete harrison

[RLWP]

Presumably, because of the short line to the looby, the boats are in a long pound in a lock flight?

 

Richard

[Starcoaster]

Not sure if this will help but I have sharpened it up a little bit:

 

[RLWP]

Anyone like to tell the woman on the motor not to stand in the arc of the tiller?

 

Richard

[cheshire~rose]

Thank you Pete. I knew there would be somone who could probably date it a little more accurately.

 

I really appreciate you sharpening the image up as well Starry. I was going to ask someone to do that for me when I get back home to a broadband connection.

 

So it is not Python ... but I still love the image!

 

I really would love to access the docking records for Python so we could research what livery she had during what periods of her life.

Edited November 16, 2013 by cheshire~rose

[alan_fincher]

Presumably, because of the short line to the looby, the boats are in a long pound in a lock flight?

 

Richard

You have better eye-sight than me if you can see a line to the mast.

 

But if there were, would it not be short enough to be fouling on the cratch of the butty?

 

I'm no expert, but surely towing on a short line would normally be done from the stud on the butty's front deck?

 

Actually looking again......

 

Could the motor have already reduced speed so the butty is not actually under tow at this point, and actually starting to catch the motor up? (Although the steerer is at this point making no obvious attempt to gather in a line, if it is)

Anyone like to tell the woman on the motor not to stand in the arc of the tiller?

 

Richard

 

Perhaps it is her going to gather up the butty's line, as it goes slack?

 

Being slightly serious, other than keeping below the tiller, even as they come out of the hatches, I can't really see how a motor steerer can loosen off the line without to some extent getting in the arc of the tiller.

Edited November 16, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Derek R.]

I'll take a shot at thinking they are approaching Slapton lock. The lie of the land is about right, and there's that little hut on the right which in the eighties was leaning even further over.

[luctor et emergo]

Anyone like to tell the woman on the motor not to stand in the arc of the tiller?

 

Richard

 

 

see, they wear the traditional costume, they paint their boats in fancy liveries, but what do they really know ..

 

and where is the steerer's bowler hat?

[jake_crew]

I'll take a shot at thinking they are approaching Slapton lock. The lie of the land is about right, and there's that little hut on the right which in the eighties was leaning even further over.

 

Before I read your post Derek I was going to suggest GU in the Mafas area, possibly north of.

 

From no special knowledge, just a gut feeling the moment I saw the picture.

[pete harrison]

So it is not Python ... but I still love the image!

 

I really would love to access the docking records for Python so we could research what livery she had during what periods of her life.

I only said that I do not think it is PYTHON.

 

I have not seen full docking details for each boat but I do have dates for most of the 'Southern' fleet. It is well known about the dates of livery changes so it is as simple as putting a livery to the docking date. PYTHON was docked by F.M.C. Ltd. in February 1946 so would have carried their red, yellow and green livery. Following an extended period of being out of use PYTHON was next docked in February 1952, this time by 'British Waterways' so would have carried the standard blue and yellow livery. In my opinion PYTHON, like many other 'British Waterways' boats was never painted in the yellow and blue livery.

 

LANCING is reputed to be the first 'British Waterways' 'Southern' boat to be painted blue and yellow, and I have its docking date as October 1949. The first few 'Southern' boats to be docked following Nationalisation carried the red, white and blue livery of the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. but were lettered 'British Waterways", SALTAIRE being one when docked in April 1948.

[cheshire~rose]

Thank you Pete, as always you are a mine of useful information!!

 

From your explanation of the dates and the liveries it would mean that for the motor in the pic to be Python it must have meant that the two boats ventured further north after 1952 and it seems fairly unlikley. Certainly that photo is not anywhere on The Paddington Arm and looking at Google images of Slapton Lock I think it could be quite likely that is a good identification of the place.

 

When I get home I will have a look at my "Colours Of The Cut" book as thanks to you we now have an idea of at least 4 of her liveries.

[pete harrison]

Thank you Pete, as always you are a mine of useful information!!

 

From your explanation of the dates and the liveries it would mean that for the motor in the pic to be Python it must have meant that the two boats ventured further north after 1952 and it seems fairly unlikley. Certainly that photo is not anywhere on The Paddington Arm and looking at Google images of Slapton Lock I think it could be quite likely that is a good identification of the place.

 

When I get home I will have a look at my "Colours Of The Cut" book as thanks to you we now have an idea of at least 4 of her liveries.

The motor in the photograph is in the 'British Waterways' yellow and blue livery, a livery that (in my opinion - but I am unable to prove at present) PYTHON did not ever carry. My opinion is that the pairing is KESTREL and DAWLEY, but again I am unable to prove this at present.

 

When writing and reading about these 'British Waterways' liveries it is easy to confuse the yellow and blue livery (mid 1948 - autumn 1949) with the subsequent blue and yellow liveries (autumn 1949 - 1973). There were at least two versions of the blue and yellow livery, the first being quite fancy with fleur de lys, scolloping at each end of the lettering and double pinstripes, whilst the second was similar but without all the fancy bits. The final version of the 'British Waterways' carrying livery was plain blue with yellow lettering, and sometimes a yellow top band around the counter. There were also numerous variations dependant on the boatyard, the painter and the Division.

 

edit - do not take Colours of the Cut too literally as it was liable to error and misinterpretation when initially written (and Edward Paget-Tomlinson was well aware of this). Unfortunately the publication in booklet format has perpetuated many of these errors.

Edited November 16, 2013 by pete harrison

[FadeToScarlet]

You have better eye-sight than me if you can see a line to the mast.

 

But if there were, would it not be short enough to be fouling on the cratch of the butty?

I'm no expert, but surely towing on a short line would normally be done from the stud on the butty's front deck?

 

Actually looking again......

 

Could the motor have already reduced speed so the butty is not actually under tow at this point, and actually starting to catch the motor up? (Although the steerer is at this point making no obvious attempt to gather in a line, if it is)

 

 

Perhaps it is her going to gather up the butty's line, as it goes slack?

 

Being slightly serious, other than keeping below the tiller, even as they come out of the hatches, I can't really see how a motor steerer can loosen off the line without to some extent getting in the arc of the tiller.

I was going to say perhaps they're using running blocks, which would mean the motor steerer could ignore the line, but looking at the picture, zoomed in, I can't see a line back to the butty steerer.

[jeannette smith harrison]

Pete Harrison

Do you think this is the same Dawley = ex Fellows Morton & Clayton reg no 1027 that on 14/4/1899 was running London to Birmingham

carrying general goods steerer is listed as A Harrison (my GG Grandad)

Another boat iv been unable to find much about is

no 565 Daisy owned by a Neil Williams Spon Lane running route London to Runcorn 14/12/1888 Traffic again general goods again steeres

at the time A Harrison

Jeannette

[cheshire~rose]

 

edit - do not take Colours of the Cut too literally as it was liable to error and misinterpretation when initially written (and Edward Paget-Tomlinson was well aware of this). Unfortunately the publication in booklet format has perpetuated many of these errors.

 

Thanks ... I think I have learned to check with you before I assume anything!

[pete harrison]

Pete Harrison

Do you think this is the same Dawley = ex Fellows Morton & Clayton reg no 1027 that on 14/4/1899 was running London to Birmingham

carrying general goods steerer is listed as A Harrison (my GG Grandad)

The details you have listed above are taken directly from the Birmingham Health Register and are applicable to DAWLEY as a new boat. This is the same DAWLEY as in the photograph at the start of this thread.

[pete harrison]

Pete Harrison

Another boat iv been unable to find much about is

no 565 Daisy owned by a Neil Williams Spon Lane running route London to Runcorn 14/12/1888 Traffic again general goods again steeres

at the time A Harrison

Jeannette

DAISY was Birmingham Health Registered as 565 on 14 December 1886 and was owned by William Neale, c/o Bromford Junction Toll House, Canal Side, Nr Spon Lane. Allen Harrison is named as master and DAISY was a single cabined horse unpowered narrow boat. The route listed on this health registration was London to Runcorn with general goods. The last trace I have on this boat was when it was inspected near Daventry on 28 November 1902, and still owned by William Neale.

 

Unfortunately I am unable to find a gauge for this boat, and I suspect its B.C.N. gauge is one of thousands removed from the registers by the B.C.N. Company in 1906.

[hughc]

I think the butty has been cast off. The motor appears to be angling towards the RH side of the lock as you would expect and the butty steerer has put a knats of helm on to slide down the LH side of the motor as she enters the lock. Regards, HughC.

[Timleech]

I like the plain (company issue?) chimney on the butty. The can looks as though it's probably also fairly plain.

 

Tim

[jeannette smith harrison]

Thank you Pete Harrison

You are a Gem, your info is much appreciated now as well as the help you have given in the past

to myself & other family members

.As added intrest Alen Harrison was still working the cut in 1911 census on board the Linslade @ Norwood BGE (Norwood top lock) aged 70 he died in 1926 two weeks after retiring off the boats at the ripe old age of 85 a good innings for a boatman of that era.

i am @ present looking into the company called T & S Elements iv been told that several family members worked for them.

i have seen A.m.models list but wondered if anyone can advise me on any books or web sites that i could read up one or see pictures

of these boats.

Jeannette

[carlt]

 

i am @ present looking into the company called T & S Elements iv been told that several family members worked for them.

i have seen A.m.models list but wondered if anyone can advise me on any books or web sites that i could read up one or see pictures

of these boats.

 

Pm sent

[AMModels]

Hi Jeanette, David E. did have a web presence at one time for the boats and the company as a whole but I cant find it any more. Most of my information regarding Elements came from David and his research into the company and the records which he transcribed. Out of interest what was the name of your family members who worked for them?

[pete harrison]

i am @ present looking into the company called T & S Elements iv been told that several family members worked for them.

i have seen A.m.models list but wondered if anyone can advise me on any books or web sites that i could read up one or see pictures

of these boats.

Jeannette

T. & S. Element Ltd. are a much harder company to provide boatmen details for as only twelve (out of about 150) of their boats were health registered. The other problem is that this company generally operated their boats very locally to the Black Country, and most of this was day boat work.

[jeannette smith harrison]

Hi Jeanette, David E. did have a web presence at one time for the boats and the company as a whole but I cant find it any more. Most of my information regarding Elements came from David and his research into the company and the records which he transcribed. Out of interest what was the name of your family members who worked for them?

I was born into the Harrison family close connections are to the Humphries,Lane,Carter,Stokes,Wright,Green,fradley,to name some

.Most of these worked the Grand Union or Oxford

I had been searching parish records in the Birmingham area for a baptism & was surprised how many of mine where baptised & Married

@ St Gabriels so i visited family in Dudley to ask questions.

My Uncle bless him is 97 years old & i was lucky to catch him on a good day when he could remember things his answer was well

they worked for the Elements, further inquiries has led me to T&S Elements ltd

One my Grandads side iv been told Holt somtimes spelt Hoult,Manders, Nixon, Bradshaw,Hollis,Atkins,Hollingshead.

,Monk,Wood

On Nans side Osborne,Hale & Stevens.

Jeannette