Boat needs a new engine after survey

[bramley]

Hi All,

 

Long time.

 

My mum and step dad want to get into the world of canals for the peace and quiet.

 

We went out and found them a boat. Its generally a very tidy boat for the year 1992, and built by TT Marine. I have owned a TT marine boat before and know they are a decent respected make imo.

 

Anyway it transpired it had sold previous however on the survey the engine overheated. Apparently this was rectified but the original seller pulled out.

 

We had a survey done today by Trevor Whitling who we asked to pay particular attention to the engine. Sadly he was able to get it fairly warm. Also suggested it is down on power, suggestion is new engine required.

 

Ok so this is not the end of the world, these things happen.

 

The engine is a Lister Peter LPW3 apparently. Where would one go for a new engine, and how much would you expect to pay for a 35 hp unit with gearbox. I understand there are many variables. We are just weighing up the options of a reduced offer with the engine considered. Also the boat is grand union at northamptonshire GU area. Can anybody recommend any engine fitters, and brands.

 

Many thanks

 

Ross

 

 

[Ray T]

Ask our resident wizzard RLWP.

 

He has the technology he may be able to rebuild it.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showuser=4003

[alan_fincher]

Reckon I must have talked to your mum and step dad at Cook's Wharf on the GU the other day then!

 

It would seem too much of a coincidence if anybody else was having a TT Marine boat surveyed by Trevor Whitling in this area at the same time.

 

I've no particular suggestions to make though,I'm afraid. Did Mr Whitling give more detail on what he thought had happened to the engine?

[bramley]

Yep Alan you would have spoken to them indeed small world and all.

 

He suggested a couple of things that could have happened, but suggested it was down on power and he would imagine the compression is low. Also smokey on load.

[Roadsteam]

Bryco at Daventry are Lister/Petter agants and do engine reconditioning in house, or ask Rose narrowboats as they also do private work.

[cheshire~rose]

I would look at the cost of reconditioning rather than replacing

[alan_fincher]

If they decide they are still interested at all, then I think there should be a very big reduction, unless someone is able to give some very positive vibes that it can be fixed without spending a fortune.

 

Changing an engine is easiest if you can find another the same, (or, more accurately, the same, but without the overheating and low on power issues!). As soon as you change to another type, my understanding is costs can really start to mount.

[thorne lass]

You might also wish to address the question of why the engine has been overheating.

 

A very common cause is an inadequately sized cooling tank. As the trend for bigger engines has grown, cooling tanks have very often not grown in proportion to rated output, so whilst the engine may be fine at average canal speeds (where circa. 12 HP is often ample) if the engine is run hard it can overheat. There can also be problems if the cooling system is poorly designed, in which case the system can be prone to air locks or sluggish circulation. Also something as simple as too much paint on the cooling tank can reduce thermal transmission rates. Has your surveyor ventured an opinion on these aspects?

 

Also, if the engine is original then it will be an early LPW. These had a problem with the design of the manicooler (the combined water cooled exhaust manifold / header tank). I cannot offhand remember the details but the design was changed, although this may only apply to heat exchanger manicoolers rather than keel cooled manicoolers. I would have to scratch the grey cells.

 

I would be very wary of anything but a first rate reconditioning (which I suspect Bryco would do) but the costs may be very close to that of a new engine, certainly if all the ancillaries are overhauled as well, which they very likely need.

 

Also, the LPW's ("Alpha's") were never a "rated" engine, so I would take this as an opportunity to re-engine rather than recondition, in which case you need about £10K off the price of the boat.

[blodger]

The 3 pot is about 27hp with the 4 being the 36 IIRC. An old BMC1500 always seemed gutsier to me than this Lister.

 

I have a 1990 TT Marine 57' with a 3 pot in it still going strong.

 

Strangely that used to readily overheat. I fitted a header tank, dropped skin tank feed pipes into the (wet) bilge and stuck a radiator in series with the calorifier to keep engine temperature down. When the calorifier had to be replaced I fitted a much bigger one and overheating became a thing of the past.

 

I use the boat much less now owing to the wife's health and I have the opposite problem now that of having difficulty getting the engine up to 80C working temperature.

 

If a Lister did not smoke a bit now and then one would worry something was awry. Regular oil/filter changes are what Listers thrive on and vice versa.

 

You seem to have asked your surveyor to find fault with the engine so he dutifully has. I doubt it is as bad as being unuseable and improvable.

 

Try to get a good reduction in price on the strength of the report and possibility of need to replace the engine by all means but then give it a go.

[bramley]

Thank you all for your reply's.

 

I think the engine is more terminal than just getting hot at present, it gets hot very quickly. Other comments were made but I cannot remember them just now. This is why I used Trevor as he is so recommended throughout the area. Also noted the engine was down on power and probably low on compression.

 

I am a bit miffed at to what to do to be honest. I was thinking a replacement engine / rebrand but at 10k I doubt the seller would be that keen. However a replacement lister is possible.

 

The biggest issue is my step father has zero experience with any of it. So he is being lead by me which is fine but I do not want to suggest something that goes wrong in time to come. Obviously at present I am assuming this is all at the sellers cost as who would buy a narrowboat with a duff engine. Again enquirers I will make tomorrow with the help of this forum

[John Williamson 1955]

How much would it cost for a fitter experienced in Listers to have a look at it? He would probably be able to give a good idea of the cost of repair/ refurbish/ replace with a known good second hand unit.

 

Quick overheating could be something as simple as a water pump impeller failure, although the damage done by overheating can be quite extensive, involving skimming the head, a rebore and new pistons.

 

Bye!

 

John.

[FadeToScarlet]

http://engines.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=331025

[Athy]

Marine Engine Services at Uxbridge are Lister specialists. One of their number is a regular poster on this forum. I'm sure he could help if alerted.

[NB Lola]

New engine, gearbox and prop shaft, supplied and fitted, circa £8k, presuming no major welding required to bed mounts etc

[scrumpylurcher]

You cannot be that far from Braunston , have a chat with Jonno at UCC.

[RLWP]

Thank you all for your reply's.

 

I think the engine is more terminal than just getting hot at present, it gets hot very quickly. Other comments were made but I cannot remember them just now. This is why I used Trevor as he is so recommended throughout the area. Also noted the engine was down on power and probably low on compression.

 

 

 

Sounds very much like the head gasket has gone

 

Richard

[OldGoat]

Might I suggest that it could be of use to contact Beta to see if they could do a competitive offer. Some of their staff came from Lister (not that is a material point), but they can supply a "plug to plug" replacement, which means no modifications to engine bearers and possibly adaptation of your existing panel.

 

Subject to costs, it's much more satisfactory to get a new installation than to patch up an old (applies to modern engine types only...) - especially when you have a responsibility to a third party.

 

Knocking off the cost of a new engine from the selling price is possibly unrealistic, but negotiating a significant proportion of the cost of a replacement may well prodice results.

[Proper Job]

If you're looking at a major engine rebuild or engine replacement post purchase, then you must really love the boat.

 

another option may be to walk away and find something else?

[MtB]

Knocking off the cost of a new engine from the selling price is possibly unrealistic, but negotiating a significant proportion of the cost of a replacement may well prodice results.

 

Indeed. A fairer calculation would be to consider the value to you of the boat with a brand new engine instead of the old (but working) Lister you thought it had. Deduct the cost of a new engine from that.

 

Or better, tell the owner you'll buy it once the engine is sorted out to your surveyor's satisfaction.

 

Or best, just buy a different boat. It's not as though second hand boats are hard to find!

 

 

MtB

[martyn 1]

Having rebuilt many hundreds of these over the years, I severely doubt there is much wrong with it that would put it in the terminal category. It may well need a rebuild (You haven't mentioned rough engine hours) but usually they are pretty bomb proof little engines when maintained properly. Also having it rebuilt or replaced like for like will mean no changes to engine beds, prop shaft arrangement, pipework etc etc etc. which adds ££££ and most people seem to overlook this will be needed.

 

And the Alpha, Canalstar, LPW, LPWS's are not overly expensive to recon and certainly a lot cheaper to do than replacement with a different make and the associated costs of the above mentioned changes you will most likely need

Edited October 24, 2013 by martyn 1