Boat buying & registration documents

[paulgmb]

Hi all,

 

I'm currently actively searching for a narrowboat. What concerns me is the lack of any identification marks as you would get with a car like chassis number, number plate etc.

Most people have told me to get as much info as posible. Good advice. I just spoke to a very helpful lady at an insurance company who says some narrowboats do have chassis numbers?! If so, which ones (is it something only newer boats have) and where do I look/will it be recorded on the BSS?

Thanks for ay advice. Obviously handing over a large amount of money (even if it is in cheque form) is making me a bit nervous. I doubt there are many stolen ones out there? Also worried about outstanding loans, any advice there on how to check?

Looking forward to seeing you all on the water again soon.

 

Paul.

[lampini]

Ditto re the outstanding loan thing.. v confused.........

 

I did read that boats built after '98 must have a Builder's plate, a CIN/HIN number and a CE mark... but there's others here know more 'n me!

[paulgmb]

Thanks Lampini.

 

Hopefully others may be able to confirm this and where to look for it?

 

Presumably it will be on the BSS?

[Paul C]

 

 

I did read that boats built after '98 must have a Builder's plate, a CIN/HIN number and a CE mark... but there's others here know more 'n me!

 

That's about it for ID, officially. Pre 1998 boats aren't required to have a unique identifying mark. Indeed, many boats out there for sale,are of unknown age because there is no official record and documentation gets lost over time, etc.

 

Regarding the outstanding loan issue, we aware that an outstanding loan on a boat still means its the owner's boat to sell - his relationship with the finance company is between him and them. However, an outstanding mortgage is different in that the loan is secured on the boat. Currently only one finance company offers this - RoyScot Larch. Previously I believe Barclays used to do it too, I'm not sure on this or when they ceased. Obviously existing mortgages will still be ongoing too. So it may be possible to contact these 2 firms and enquire if they have an interest in a boat once you supply details and the reasons.

 

Hopefully someone else might be able to provide a list of previous marine mortgage providers, to make your search complete.

[lampini]

Cheers Paul C that's very helpful information......

[Ray T]

Other paperwork to look for could include:

 

A history of license fees paid

Service records

 

BSS certificates

Insurance documents

 

MCA Bill of Sale

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/uksr-msf4705.pdf

 

Copies of previous surveys - if available

 

When we were looking for a boat if none of the above were available, we walked.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Ray T

[Ally]

Younger boats that have been through an original RCD, will have a CIN number. This is like a chasis number and should be permanently marked on the starboard side stern end somewhere, often at the end of the gunwale, stamped or welded on, it should also be marked in a 'hidden' place elsewhere...this could be anywhere, and should be noted on the Certificate of Conformity in the manual, and on the builders plate.

Some older boats have a HIN number, which was a hull ID number, often welded into the weed hatch or suchlike, but many older boats have nothing.

[paulgmb]

Thanks everyone, I certainly know now what to look out for.

 

Much appreciated.

[Jeffers71]

much as I hate bureaucracy (apart from anything its so bloomin hard to spell), I'm thinking that its about time there was something similar to a v5 car logbook for canal boats, as I've looked at a couple on gumtree and enquired about them only to get a very dodgy email back saying sorry I can't actually view the boat as they are the other side of the country from where it's moored but if I want to pay by their paypal invoice they guarantee I'll be happy with the boat (yeah right!) okay it may not completely get rid of scams like that but probably would make it easier to find out who holds actual title to a boat.

[Graham.m]

 

Regarding the outstanding loan issue, we aware that an outstanding loan on a boat still means its the owner's boat to sell - his relationship with the finance company is between him and them. However, an outstanding mortgage is different in that the loan is secured on the boat. Currently only one finance company offers this - RoyScot Larch. Previously I believe Barclays used to do it too, I'm not sure on this or when they ceased. Obviously existing mortgages will still be ongoing too. So it may be possible to contact these 2 firms and enquire if they have an interest in a boat once you supply details and the reasons.

 

The loan companies are going to be unwilling to give information because of the DPA.

However if you write to them giving the name and Reg number of the boat saying you are in the process of buying this boat and asking them to declare any interest they have in the boat and that if you do not have any response within 14 days declaring an interest you will assume they do not have an interest and any contract they may have regarding this boat will be null and void.

 

That sort of thing, maybe a legal eagle can knock it into better shape.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Graham.m

[Alan de Enfield]

much as I hate bureaucracy (apart from anything its so bloomin hard to spell), I'm thinking that its about time there was something similar to a v5 car logbook for canal boats, as I've looked at a couple on gumtree and enquired about them only to get a very dodgy email back saying sorry I can't actually view the boat as they are the other side of the country from where it's moored but if I want to pay by their paypal invoice they guarantee I'll be happy with the boat (yeah right!) okay it may not completely get rid of scams like that but probably would make it easier to find out who holds actual title to a boat.

 

If you loom look at your cars V5 you will see the statement "This document is not proof of ownership. It shows who is responsible for registering and taxing the vehicle"

 

A boat CAN have a legal certificate of ownership which is an official government document issued by the MCA.

 

Department of Transport Merchant Shipping Act 1995

Bill of Sale Warning:

A purchaser of a British registered ship does not obtain complete title until the appropriate Bill(s) of Sale has been recorded with the Registry, and a new Certificate issued.

 

If you do a search for MCA Bill of Sale you will find out more.

 

Unfortunately Inland Waterways have always minimised the amount of interference from officialdom and do not use the system. There is no reason why the system cannot be used on canal / river boats and I would certainly be prepared to pay a 'premium' for such a vessel that could be guaranteed to be 'owned by the person who says it is his, and can be proven to have no outstanding loans on it'

 

Edit - Spooling mistooks

Edited November 30, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[Ray T]

We are the third owners of our boat. One of the many reasons we purchased it was that it had all the paperwork from new and two MCA "Bills of Sale" from the first and second owners.

 

It has the invoices from Weltonfield boats to the first owner. So in our case we had no worries as to ownership.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Ray T

[Jeffers71]

 

If you loom look at your cars V5 you will see the statement "This document is not proof of ownership. It shows who is responsible for registering and taxing the vehicle"

 

A boat CAN have a legal certificate of ownership which is an official government document issued by the MCA.

 

Department of Transport Merchant Shipping Act 1995

Bill of Sale Warning:

A purchaser of a British registered ship does not obtain complete title until the appropriate Bill(s) of Sale has been recorded with the Registry, and a new Certificate issued.

 

If you do a search for MCA Bill of Sale you will find out more.

 

Unfortunately Inland Waterways have always minimised the amount of interference from officialdom and do not use the system. There is no reason why the system cannot be used on canal / river boats and I would certainly be prepared to pay a 'premium' for such a vessel that could be guaranteed to be 'owned by the person who says it is his, and can be proven to have no outstanding loans on it'

can you get one of these if you've already got a boat with no paperwork to prove its yours in the first place though?

[FadeToScarlet]

Who would I get one from, though? The builders are all dead; the company which built it died out 40 years ago Iirc.

 

Quite a few boats were built and first sold by companies which are no longer in existence.

[MtB]

Who would I get one from, though? The builders are all dead; the company which built it died out 40 years ago Iirc.

 

Quite a few boats were built and first sold by companies which are no longer in existence.

 

 

I'd say the boat on the cut with a builder still in business is the unusual one......

[Alan de Enfield]

can you get one of these if you've already got a boat with no paperwork to prove its yours in the first place though?

 

It takes some 'jumping thru hoops' but yes it can be done - if you have a bill of sale, the rest can be 'sorted'.

 

Eligibility

The following are qualified to be the owners/charterers of ships to be registered on the UK Ship Register:

a British Citizen; 

a British Dependant Territories Citizen; 

a British Overseas Citizen; 

Companies incorporated in one of the EEA countries; 

Citizens of an EU member state exercising their rights under articles 48 or 52 of the EU Treaty in the UK; 

Companies incorporated in any British overseas possession which have their principal place of business in the UK or those possessions; 

or European Economic Interest Groupings.

 

The following original documents are required for Part I registration.

 

Application to Register – MSF 4740(A) 

Declaration of Eligibility – MSF 4727 

Bill of Sale (for existing ships) – MSF 4705 

Copy of Certificate of Incorporation (if owner is a body corporate) 

Certificate of Survey for Tonnage & Measurement 

International Tonnage Certificate (ITC69) - (for vessels >500 GT) 

Builders Certificate (for new builds) 

Deletion certificate/transcript from the current register or a written undertaking to provide one within six weeks 

Copy of the ship’s current Continuous Synopsis Record (for vessels >500 GT) 

Mortgage registration forms (if appropriate)

 

Strikethrough words are 'mine' and would not be relevant for a privately owned Canal boat.

 

So - for a (non company) private owner, who confirms that there is no mortgage on the vessel he would need to

 

1) Fill out the application form

2) Declare you are eligible ( see list)

3) Get a certificate of tonnage & measurement

4) Have a bill of sale

5) A builders certificate ( ideally for either a new or old boat) mandatory for a new build boat.

 

A builders certificate ( I think) in the case of a leisure Canal boat would be the RCD certificate.

 

Edit - after searching the MCA website, the "Builders Certificate" would not be the RCD certificate. The MCA have 'their own' form but any other form can be used ( ie the builder's own paperwork') as long as it contains the required information. The information that is included on the RCD is almost everything that is needed, EXCEPT for the name of the 1st owner for whom the boat was built.

 

Remember, however, that a builders certificate is not required for an 'old' boat.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

The loan companies are going to be unwilling to give information because of the DPA.

However if you write to them giving the name and Reg number of the boat saying you are in the process of buying this boat and asking them to declare any interest they have in the boat and that if you do not have any response within 14 days declaring an interest you will assume they do not have an interest and any contract they may have regarding this boat will be null and void.

You can't impose that last bit unilaterally. If they don't reply their interest in the boat is exactly what it was before, regardless of your assumption, and if they do reply saying they do not confirm or deny their interest then you are no further forward. Edited November 30, 2015 by David Mack

[nebulae]

Full registration as a British Ship as described above, was necessary for any vessel which was the subject of a marine mortgage and for vessels visiting foreign ports. I remember having to visit a commisioner for oaths and swear on oath that I was purchasing the whole vessel .A simpler method,has been introduced by the M.C.A. called the Small Ship Register .Any vessel so registered must by law display its SSR number (in the font ,size,and colour specified.) This is not a cast iron guarantee of ownership like full registration,but is the next best thing.Cost last time I registered our boat was £25 .Contact Marine and Coastguard Agency for details.029-2044-8800

[Alan de Enfield]

Full registration as a British Ship as described above, was necessary for any vessel which was the subject of a marine mortgage and for vessels visiting foreign ports. I remember having to visit a commisioner for oaths and swear on oath that I was purchasing the whole vessel .A simpler method,has been introduced by the M.C.A. called the Small Ship Register .Any vessel so registered must by law display its SSR number (in the font ,size,and colour specified.) This is not a cast iron guarantee of ownership like full registration,but is the next best thing.Cost last time I registered our boat was £25 .Contact Marine and Coastguard Agency for details.029-2044-8800

 

Absolutely correct - but - not only is it NOT a 'cast iron guarantee of ownership', it specifically states "This certificate is not proof of legal ownership'.

 

To get an SSR you simply give them the ships name and pay your £25.

 

I know I have just done it for both vessels.

 

It allows you entry into foreign ports but does nothing to establish ownership or show any finance outstanding.

[Arthur Marshall]

Who would I get one from, though? The builders are all dead; the company which built it died out 40 years ago Iirc.

 

Quite a few boats were built and first sold by companies which are no longer in existence.

I've got nothing to prove that I own my boat except an undated receipt from the bloke I bought it from, for cash, thirty years ago. I had no proof that he owned it either... I presume he did, as no-one's come looking for it since!

[b0atman]

what about BW/CRT number plates ?

[Alan de Enfield]

what about BW/CRT number plates ?

 

What about them ?

 

They are just like a 'club membership card' they are meaningless as proof of ownership or to show if any finance is outstanding.

The person that C&RT have shown against the registration number is the person who is responsible for licencing the boat, not necessarily the owner.

 

On a share boat, one person (possibly two) will have their name linked to the boat and C&RT. They are the nominated 'contact' point for the boat but obviously are not the 'owner', and legally could not sell it without the other 'owners' all agreeing.

 

This is why on the ships register documents you are signing to say you own all 64/64th shares, or whatever portion are owned by each owner. ( don't know why 64ths was chosen, but it was)

Edited December 1, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[nebulae]

Quite correct,registering on the SSR is not proof of ownership. My reasoning for suggesting it is that the vessel and owner are on the M.C.A. database.If somebody has taken the trouble to register the vessel and mark it with its number,it gives some connection between a person,an address and a boat.Together with the other documents listed by other people on this thread,it may give confidence to anybody handing over large wads of cash to a person who may or may not be the owner of the boat. Full registration gives a firm guarantee of ownership.I have never checked,but I presume there are stiff legal sanctions for a person making a false claim when applying for full registration.

[ditchcrawler]

,but I presume there are stiff legal sanctions for a person making a false claim when applying for full registration.

If they are flogging a boat they don't own I doubt they will be worried