CC-ing distance. (again)

[jenlyn]

I don't see how this statement advances our understanding of the licensing requirements.

 

If you disagree with my soundbite, could you explain what is wrong with it, please?

 

Thanks.

 

 

MtB

Of course.

Your not a ccer, so why spend so much time worrying and discussing the regulations? That's CRT's problem. Let them worry about it. After all, they helped develop the problem, why should we as genuine Boat owners be pulled into their clock ups?

[Ex- Member]

I am happy if CRT tell a person if they are not travelling enough...or if they have returned to an area too soon...or crossed through an area (perhaps not even stopping more than a few hours, but being clocked for it)......as long as CRT knock on the window and LET YOU KNOW that you are being a bad boater.

 

What I dont want, is to get to the end of the year, ask to renew my licence and THEN find out they wont because they're unhappy for some reason.

 

it's that simple...and it's not too much too ask.

 

 

I'm currently a marina home based boater. I'm not a CC-er, and I'm very law abiding. I do however, want to CC again in the future, but perhaps just up and down the L&L canal. (if thats legal)

 

They could hardly do that without some kind of warning. We're talking about C&RT not the Gestapo.

 

That's why notices exist to inform you of alleged overstaying or whatever.

 

Again fear and paranoia seem to pervade, the rules and regs are quite simple, We have no problem understanding them at all, I really cannot see why others think it's difficult. If yo can read Janet and John, then you should be able to understand a few simple rules and guidelines.

 

Again I despair LOL

[jenlyn]

They could hardly do that without some kind of warning. We're talking about C&RT not the Gestapo.

 

That's why notices exist to inform you of alleged overstaying or whatever.

 

Again fear and paranoia seem to pervade, the rules and regs are quite simple, We have no problem understanding them at all, I really cannot see why others think it's difficult. If yo can read Janet and John, then you should be able to understand a few simple rules and guidelines.

 

Again I despair LOL

I think generally, most of us do know the rules and regs. It's the IWA and CRT who seem to be struggling with them.

[cotswoldsman]

I am happy if CRT tell a person if they are not travelling enough...or if they have returned to an area too soon...or crossed through an area (perhaps not even stopping more than a few hours, but being clocked for it)......as long as CRT knock on the window and LET YOU KNOW that you are being a bad boater.

 

What I dont want, is to get to the end of the year, ask to renew my licence and THEN find out they wont because they're unhappy for some reason.

 

it's that simple...and it's not too much too ask.

 

 

I'm currently a marina home based boater. I'm not a CC-er, and I'm very law abiding. I do however, want to CC again in the future, but perhaps just up and down the L&L canal. (if thats legal)

That will not happen the first action is a pre CC1 and that will be pinned to your boat though we have been pressing CRT to ensure it is delivered in person, so that the enforcement officer can first ask why the boat has not moved far enough, and also tell the boater what they consider to be far enough. Dean please stop worrying you are just worrying about nothing.

[Lutra_lutra]

To be a CCer as I understand it, a boater declares they are engaged in bona fide navigation.

 

I suggest that anyone seeking a minimum distance to move in 14 days is by definition not engaged in bona fide navigation, thereby demonstrating themselves non-complaint.

 

 

MtB

 

What we are talking about is a matter of scale. Some people say retired in their 60's may want to see the entire network in the 10 years they have left boating and so move every few days. Personally I'm under 30 and so have 40+ years left to see the network and so can travel far, far slower*.

 

Both parties are continuous, and plan to travel across the network and so are using it for bona fide navigation, I just plan to do a canal a year or so, while others want to do three or four.

 

Traveling (and by extension navigation) is a state of mind, not a speed.

 

Otter

 

*The benefit of working from home, give me an internet connection and I'm good to go.

[Weyland Yutani]

Sort of related to this but I've just moved Berengaria into a marina - do I need to inform CaRT (and presumably change the details on my licence) ?

[cotswoldsman]

Sort of related to this but I've just moved Berengaria into a marina - do I need to inform CaRT (and presumably change the details on my licence) ?

CRT need to be informed in any change of status

[Weyland Yutani]

CRT need to be informed in any change of status

 

Thanks Cotswoldsman

[DeanS]

me...worried?

nope

 

Once again, it's most clear that no one has a clue what the rules really mean, however what is probably the most interesting revelation is that towpath "enforcers" are now only "data capturers", and it's the centralised computer system that's working out whether you're good or bad....

 

so if the computer says you're bad....it sends you a letter.

 

I'm happy with that. Better than some nosey/power hungry vounteer deciding he doesnt like the "look" of your boat

[cotswoldsman]

Dean it does not send you a letter. The letter is delivered by the enforcement officer

 

This is the letter they deliver LINK>>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/g1x0l731h73d1rs/Pre%20CC1%20revision%20draft%2028-5-13.doc

 

Edited to say that is a vast improvement on the letter they used to deliver LINK>>>>>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwm2u4hnsatj8x6/Pre%20CC1%2015.11.2012.doc

Edited September 4, 2013 by cotswoldsman

[mark99]

From the letter:

 

"You must use the boat to genuinely cruise in a mainly progressive fashion (A to B to C to D rather than A to B to A to B ) from place to place and must not stop for more than 14 days in any one place, except in exceptional circumstances beyond your control."

 

I'm not sure they could be more specific than that as there are so many variables and specific circumstances depending uopn specific waterway, waterway connections, weather, accidents, closures, boaters philosophy re dwelling 14 days in same place etc. There will always have to be an element of assessment. As a towpath user/walker for years, I knew I think the non CCers on the bit I used to frequent.

Edited September 4, 2013 by mark99

[dmr]

me...worried?

nope

 

Once again, it's most clear that no one has a clue what the rules really mean, however what is probably the most interesting revelation is that towpath "enforcers" are now only "data capturers", and it's the centralised computer system that's working out whether you're good or bad....

 

so if the computer says you're bad....it sends you a letter.

 

I'm happy with that. Better than some nosey/power hungry vounteer deciding he doesnt like the "look" of your boat

 

I also do not like the idea of volunteer wardens at all as some may well be power mad, and I fear that some will be particularly hard on people who they "Dont like the look of".

But

The genuine patrol officers are proper CaRT staff and I have always found them friendly. If you do overstay a bit (we had a mechanical issue the winter before last,) they would most likely knock on your boat and give you a gentle hint that you should be moving on before too long. This is how a relaxed friendly waterway should be. The trouble with the data checkers and resulting letter is that there is no friendly warning...once you get the letter you are on the radar!

 

............Dave

[Southern Star]

if you don’t take the time to understand your responsibilities as a continuous cruiser you

risk finding yourself on the receiving end of increasingly strident letters from us.

 

 

 

As someone who deals with VOSA and HMRC on a regular basis, that has to be the mildest enforcement letter I have ever seen!

[Hawkmoth]

 

 

 

As someone who deals with VOSA and HMRC on a regular basis, that has to be the mildest enforcement letter I have ever seen!

 

I have to agree with you. It does seem that C&RT are not being unreasonable in their desire to get boaters to comply with the CC guidelines.

I don't think Dean has anything to worry about.

I would find it hard to believe that C&RT have carried out proceedings against anyone who is genuinely engaged in a progressive journey. Even if you stay 14 days in lots of places If you're not moving far, over time, then where is the progression?

With great respect to Cotswoldman, who does work tirelessly for the boating community, I do hope and think, that he is wrong about a campaign against genuine CCers .

Bob

[cotswoldsman]

I have to agree with you. It does seem that C&RT are not being unreasonable in their desire to get boaters to comply with the CC guidelines.

I don't think Dean has anything to worry about.

I would find it hard to believe that C&RT have carried out proceedings against anyone who is genuinely engaged in a progressive journey. Even if you stay 14 days in lots of places If you're not moving far, over time, then where is the progression?

With great respect to Cotswoldman, who does work tirelessly for the boating community, I do hope and think, that he is wrong about a campaign against genuine CCers .

Bob

Bob firstly let me say that the letter is the result of meetings we had with CRT where we pointed out that Pre CC1 needed to be less confrontational until the boater had a chance to explain why they were non being compliant.

With regard to the campaign against CCers I have stated in the other thread that I accepted that maybe there was no campaign but that CRT are making life difficult for ALL CCers. Unlike some I do not pre judge peoples Cruising patterns I leave that to CRT and Enforcement as they are the ones that have the information, and having caused most of the problems with slack enforcement in the past also need to sort find a reasonable solution. My point is more that when CRT make major changes to such things a Visitor Moorings they take no account of CCers, now some might say "well they are a minority" and changes should be made for the benefit of the majority. That is based on the amount of registered boats but does not take account of actual boats on the system at any one time. As an example in one conversation I had with CRT it was estimated that during November, December and January over 70% of boats on the system were CCers. I would estimate (and no I have no figures) that with the exception of June, July and August, CCers would account for close to 50% of actual boats moving rounsd the system.

[Hawkmoth]

Bob firstly let me say that the letter is the result of meetings we had with CRT where we pointed out that Pre CC1 needed to be less confrontational until the boater had a chance to explain why they were non being compliant.

With regard to the campaign against CCers I have stated in the other thread that I accepted that maybe there was no campaign but that CRT are making life difficult for ALL CCers. Unlike some I do not pre judge peoples Cruising patterns I leave that to CRT and Enforcement as they are the ones that have the information, and having caused most of the problems with slack enforcement in the past also need to sort find a reasonable solution. My point is more that when CRT make major changes to such things a Visitor Moorings they take no account of CCers, now some might say "well they are a minority" and changes should be made for the benefit of the majority. That is based on the amount of registered boats but does not take account of actual boats on the system at any one time. As an example in one conversation I had with CRT it was estimated that during November, December and January over 70% of boats on the system were CCers. I would estimate (and no I have no figures) that with the exception of June, July and August, CCers would account for close to 50% of actual boats moving rounsd the system.

Thanks for all that John. I didn't know you had a hand in that letter.

It does seem that there is a perception problem within C&RT, and I do get the impression that they're trying to do 'the right thing'.

I have always found that C&RT people we have dealt with have been helpful in the extreme.

To balance that, I'm sure that there are some people within the structure of C&RT who have axes to grind, or are just plain out of touch.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks,

Bob

[RLWP]

Of course.

Your not a ccer,

 

That's unfair. Not being a CCer doesn't exclude anyone from trying to understand this issue. If it did, I can't see why I can't equally say 'I'm not a CCer, go sort yourself out mate'

 

We all need each other in this debate, CCer's probably need moorers more than the other way around given the relative sizes of the groups.

 

I know it's annoying to keep going over this. It's annoying to be constantly asked opinions about boats for sale, or how wonderful it will be to buy a boat to live in London, or how to fix Eberspachers. That doesn't make trying to understand something wrong

 

Richard

[cotswoldsman]

Thanks for all that John. I didn't know you had a hand in that letter.

It does seem that there is a perception problem within C&RT, and I do get the impression that they're trying to do 'the right thing'.

I have always found that C&RT people we have dealt with have been helpful in the extreme.

To balance that, I'm sure that there are some people within the structure of C&RT who have axes to grind, or are just plain out of touch.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks,

Bob

Was not just me!! I am just a small cog. It was part of a process of trying to get CRT to be less confrontational, I know Alan for example spent quite a bit of time on the "Licence or lose it" catch phrase on Licence Renewal Form

[Tuscan]

That's unfair. Not being a CCer doesn't exclude anyone from trying to understand this issue. If it did, I can't see why I can't equally say 'I'm not a CCer, go sort yourself out mate'

 

We all need each other in this debate, CCer's probably need moorers more than the other way around given the relative sizes of the groups.

 

I know it's annoying to keep going over this. It's annoying to be constantly asked opinions about boats for sale, or how wonderful it will be to buy a boat to live in London, or how to fix Eberspachers. That doesn't make trying to understand something wrong

 

Richard

Why does everybody need to have a label , there is in effect just one licence and within that you declare whether you have a home mooring or not. Many of the recent and proposed changes effect all boaters there are many like me that have a mooring but travel for months at a time we are all different for example I stayed put in August but am out for October.

 

We all have the same basic issues with facilities , tow path mooring availability (including VM), safety, depth and maintenance together whether as individuals or through associations we can make CRT responsive to our needs. Outside this most of us are aware of the specific needs of the others from price and availability of moorings to CRTs enforcement activities.

 

I don't know anyone who when sharing a lock or a pint in a pub makes that decision as to whether that boater is a CC'er , a moorer or a hirer . You meet the arrogant, interesting and the fool but the constant is normally that they have a boat and long may that diversity continue.

[RLWP]

We don't need labels. And we need to understand the circumstances of other boaters.

 

Grouping us into cheating CCer's and smug moorers won't help anyone

 

Richard

 

MORE: I take it you haven't come across boats that won't share locks with hire boats then

Edited September 5, 2013 by RLWP

[carlt]

Why does everybody need to have a label

Because of an incredibly successful marketing campaign by Dymo in the 1970s.

[Tuscan]

 

 

MORE: I take it you haven't come across boats that won't share locks with hire boats then

 

No we actually look forward to going up locks with hire boats normally we have had private boats refuse to go up with us though.

Because of an incredibly successful marketing campaign by Dymo in the 1970s.

Excellent

[Hawkmoth]

Why does everybody need to have a label , there is in effect just one licence and within that you declare whether you have a home mooring or not. Many of the recent and proposed changes effect all boaters there are many like me that have a mooring but travel for months at a time we are all different for example I stayed put in August but am out for October.

 

We all have the same basic issues with facilities , tow path mooring availability (including VM), safety, depth and maintenance together whether as individuals or through associations we can make CRT responsive to our needs. Outside this most of us are aware of the specific needs of the others from price and availability of moorings to CRTs enforcement activities.

 

I don't know anyone who when sharing a lock or a pint in a pub makes that decision as to whether that boater is a CC'er , a moorer or a hirer . You meet the arrogant, interesting and the fool but the constant is normally that they have a boat and long may that diversity continue.

Well said! Have greenie.

Bob

 

 

MORE: I take it you haven't come across boats that won't share locks with hire boats then

Not actually, only in hearsay, but, when we were hirers we did have an owner let us off because he didn't like us that close and there was no way we could move forward.

Bob

[Alan Saunders]

If I have read some very confusing documents correctly...

There is about to be a consultation on the results of a study into possible new regulations on the western end of the K&A.

I believe a suggestion is that 20km a year will be adequate to be a compliant continuous cruiser.

Although A-B-A bridge hopping will not be acceptable, I suspect A-B-C-D-C-B-A will be ok as long as you also go on a big 20km adventure once a year!

So if this is approved then your cruising on the Bridgewater, Rochdale and L&L will make you a super-cruiser. Our 900 miles a year will qualify us a true canal fanatics.

 

I think you need not worry!

 

.............Dave

I have just been invited to comment on the Consultation - Towpath Mooring Plan Kennet & Avon Canal west of Devizes. The report is at http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/4082.pdf but you cannot contribute unless specifcally invited.

 

20Km (12.5 miles) is a range, not a total distance, to be completed within the period of an annual licence; i.e. if you do A-B-C-D-C-B-A then 'A' must be at least 12.5 miles distant from 'D'. For those who depend on employment, schools etc this means they will, on average, have a 10Km (6.5 mile) commute. This seems to me to be a very reasonable requirement, way below current possible interpretations of 'bona-fide navigation'. e.g. Devizes - Wooton Rivers 15 miles no locks.

 

On the other hand they list just 14 locations between Foxhangars and Bath top lock which seeks to exclude isolated locations previously considered a place where overstayers cause no inconvenience.

 

The fact is that government are unable to house thousands of familes and rents in the private sector far exceed the cost of a mortgage (6%-25%). BW/CRT seek to use legislaton to relieve their contribution to alleviate this problem. Clearly, there must be some control on CC'ing/permanent mooring and this pilot is reasonable with the exception of their refusal to establish 'community moorings' (at a charge). GB is in dire financial straights, establishment of cheap accomodation (compared to bed & breakfast etc) for those willing to endure it would make a large contribution to the budget.

 

Dean etc. - do not worry! This pilot scheme seeks to protect your chosen way of life. Further, it suggests that an occasional digression should not result in any action other than a few points on your licence. The best compliance officers (even GW, who received some bad press here) will knock on yor roof or call your mobile before taking action.

 

Personally, I would like to see an averaging of progress; sometimes I want to stay for a month, sometimes for a weekend - so long as I would have complied had I stopped at the intermediate places. No complex computer system required; a spreadsheet will suffice.

[BlueStringPudding]

Very constructive - thanks Alan