viewing a trad with a rn engine

[saxplayer]

Hy all

can someone give me any pointers of what to look for in these engines.

shaun

[Timleech]

Hy all

can someone give me any pointers of what to look for in these engines.

shaun

 

How old is it?

What sort of gearbox?

 

Tim

[Athy]

Is that the 50-footer with the 1949 RN? I had a good look at that on, I think, Apollo Duck. One advantage compared with some vintage engines should be that, as the company is still in business, availability of spare parts should not be a problem.

 

Oh, and they look and sound lovely.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

How is it cooled?

 

Traditionally they would have been raw water cooled using water from the canal.

 

If it is like that, you need to check it has adequate strainers and mud boxes to stop rubbish getting drawn in.

 

Also be aware that if the engine has not been adequately drained during major freeze ups that damage can have occurred.

 

On the other hand in some cases in a modern boat a closed circuit skin tank system may have been used instead. If so it's worth seeking advice on "how big" that skin tank should be.

[MtB]

Hy all

can someone give me any pointers of what to look for in these engines.

shaun

Make sure you see it started from cold, ideally by hand. Any hint of needing a blowlamp up the air intake or worse, EzyStart ether spray and you'll know it's time for a full rebuild. Same if it only runs on one cylinder initially.

 

Otoh vintage engines in poor condition can, and often do, go on for decades!

 

MtB

[richardf]

I have recommended this guy before - but Richard Milligan is a mechanic specialising in RNs. Top bloke, normally found on the S & W or Lower Shroppie - but sure he would travel to give you an expert opinion on the RN. It could be an expensive thing to get wrong. PM me for his number

[c c]

Make sure you see it started from cold, ideally by hand. Any hint of needing a blowlamp up the air intake or worse, EzyStart ether spray and you'll know it's time for a full rebuild. Same if it only runs on one cylinder initially.

 

Otoh vintage engines in poor condition can, and often do, go on for decades!

 

MtB

I hesitate to disagree with MTB but -

 

What he says above may well refer to a dodgy RN but BADSEY has the original hand start NATIONAL that it was built with and it still runs very well after its full rebuild in 2005. Certainly doesn't need another rebuild yet but I doubt even Mike could start it by hand in cold weather without a quick intake of ether (either for the engine or the starter). Every time I admit to it however, I get the old response of "the engine gets addicted to it" to which I reply, "No - my elderly muscles might get addicted to it, but the engine is a pile of metal bits so can not suffer an addiction". And then there are those who say "Eazystart blows the carbon away that you need for a good cylinder seal" to which others respond "just give it a good run and it soon build up again".

Mind you, only a tiny squirt is recommended - I'm still using the same can that a highly respected boat engineer (Watford area) gave me when we couldn't start it in freezing weather in 2006.

[andywatson]

I have recommended this guy before - but Richard Milligan is a mechanic specialising in RNs. Top bloke, normally found on the S & W or Lower Shroppie - but sure he would travel to give you an expert opinion on the RN. It could be an expensive thing to get wrong. PM me for his number

 

I agree.

Richard Milligan has a very good reputation.

He was moored at Shadehouse near Fradley a couple of weeks ago.

[mattlad]

Make sure you see it started from cold, ideally by hand. Any hint of needing a blowlamp up the air intake or worse, EzyStart ether spray and you'll know it's time for a full rebuild. Same if it only runs on one cylinder initially.

 

MtB

To be honest I don't know of anyone who can start an RN from stone cold......... I can start mine when the gauge reads about 20 to 25°C but below that....... NO CHANCE!

 

I would not recommend using Easy Start in an RN.

 

They are pretty simple engines really, the biggest problems occur when they have not been drained correctly and been allowed to freeze. Another problem is cracked blocks if someone has over-torqued the cylinder head nuts.

 

Another recommendation for Richard Milligan!

[pete harrison]

I hesitate to disagree with MTB but -

 

What he says above may well refer to a dodgy RN but BADSEY has the original hand start NATIONAL that it was built with and it still runs very well after its full rebuild in 2005. Certainly doesn't need another rebuild yet but I doubt even Mike could start it by hand in cold weather without a quick intake of ether (either for the engine or the starter).

Mind you, only a tiny squirt is recommended

This must be a BADSEY affliction as when I owned this boat it had a Perkins P3.144 that would only start with a 'sniff' of Eazy-Start. I had mixed feelings about using Eazy-Start but the previous owner had used it for years, and the alternative was always two flat batteries unless it was an extremely warm day or the engine had been running in the last 12 hours or so. I did make the foolish mistake once of giving the Perkins a 'sniff' of Easy-Start whilst cranking it over and using the inlet manifold mounted glowplug. It was remarkable how quickly the oil bath air filter emptied itself all around the engine room followed by a bit of a flame ! Fortunately no damage was done and this engine lasted a few more years and a couple of owners (replaced 1997 with another Perkins).

[ChimneyChain]

We had a 3 cyl RN in our last boat (62ft les Allen) look, sounded and ran fantastically. Now I've got a crappy old P3 in this boat.

 

Darren

Edited August 24, 2013 by ChimneyChain

[andyb116]

As one of the two people who changed the P3 in Badsey on the dock @ Ellesmere Port boat museum in about 93/94, when a well known painter owned it, I don't think it would of started with a stick of dynamite, once we found it in the black hole of Calcutta/engine room. But the replacement engine & box once prepped was clocked at 75mph on the M53 (on the back of a moggy pick up. (Fun days)

[pete harrison]

As one of the two people who changed the P3 in Badsey on the dock @ Ellesmere Port boat museum in about 93/94, when a well known painter owned it, I don't think it would of started with a stick of dynamite, once we found it in the black hole of Calcutta/engine room.

I would just like to say that BADSEY's engine room was not a "black hole of Calcutta' when we owned it. When we bought BADSEY and BARNES in 1988 the engine room was red oxide below the gunwales and dark grained above, making for a pretty gloomy place - especially with all of the additional shelving (and spiders) that were in there. Although I did not touch the engine (apart from bolting it down properly - it was only on 2 bolts when we bought it) I did refurbish the engine room as I see this as a part of the living space. When sold in 1990 the walls were painted cream and were still clean. I understand (from the "well known painter") that the engine exhaust was leaking inside the engine room when he bought this pair in 1994, and it was this that made the worst of the mess.

 

I must admit that I hated that P3.144 and fully intended to replace it with something more suitable once it expired, but these boats were in a bit of a bad way when we bought them and as the engine ran it was low on the priority list. It was very dissapointing to see how far BADSEY went downhill over the next couple of years, and how little progress the new owners made with BARNES. The "well known painter" subsequently converted BARNES almost exactly as we were going to do.

[matty40s]

To be honest I don't know of anyone who can start an RN from stone cold......... I can start mine when the gauge reads about 20 to 25°C but below that....... NO CHANCE!

 

I would not recommend using Easy Start in an RN.

 

They are pretty simple engines really, the biggest problems occur when they have not been drained correctly and been allowed to freeze. Another problem is cracked blocks if someone has over-torqued the cylinder head nuts.

 

Another recommendation for Richard Milligan!

managed to start an old RN from bitter cold for a forum member on a snowy day in January without any drugs or dynamite. Sounded like a tumble dryer full of spanners yes, but it started.

[Timleech]

I hesitate to disagree with MTB but -

 

What he says above may well refer to a dodgy RN but BADSEY has the original hand start NATIONAL that it was built with and it still runs very well after its full rebuild in 2005. Certainly doesn't need another rebuild yet but I doubt even Mike could start it by hand in cold weather without a quick intake of ether (either for the engine or the starter). Every time I admit to it however, I get the old response of "the engine gets addicted to it" to which I reply, "No - my elderly muscles might get addicted to it, but the engine is a pile of metal bits so can not suffer an addiction". And then there are those who say "Eazystart blows the carbon away that you need for a good cylinder seal" to which others respond "just give it a good run and it soon build up again".

Mind you, only a tiny squirt is recommended - I'm still using the same can that a highly respected boat engineer (Watford area) gave me when we couldn't start it in freezing weather in 2006.

 

A bit of lubricating oil into the air intakes and/or some flaming rag might be kinder than easy start.

That's assuming it has the usual National air intake box on the side, it's harder to do with the piped RN-style intake.

 

Tim

[luctor et emergo]

I love the Lister in my boat. Turn the key, and away we are. Deep winter, turn the key a little longer, and away we are. Run low on diesel (I know, I know..), top up, turn the key for a while, and away we go....

 

Sorry, not RN , but when you rely on your engi e on a daily basis, turn and go is a big plus. You know it is...

[c c]

 

A bit of lubricating oil into the air intakes and/or some flaming rag might be kinder than easy start.

That's assuming it has the usual National air intake box on the side, it's harder to do with the piped RN-style intake.

 

Tim

Sorry - disagree again.

Lubricating oil down the air intake would surely kill a National DM2 stone dead and the thought of a blowback blasting bits of burning rag in yer face would possibly kill the one on the starting handle or at least do more damage than a tiny squirt of EZStart!.

[frangar]

What you need is a nice JP2..... Easy to start by hand even in the depths of winter unless its a really poorly example.....

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Nightwatch]

My Barras Shire always starts,summer or winter. If I can the electrics to work.

[Timleech]

Sorry - disagree again.

Lubricating oil down the air intake would surely kill a National DM2 stone dead and the thought of a blowback blasting bits of burning rag in yer face would possibly kill the one on the starting handle or at least do more damage than a tiny squirt of EZStart!.

 

Both are standard ways to ease their starting. Need to be used with a degree of common sense and caution, of course.

 

Tim (who has owned or part owned at least 7 Nationals over the last 45 years)

[c c]

THE BLACK HOLE

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

AND Kneeling down before you Tim - full repect

BUT -

Not this one you haven't.

 

Facinated to know where are you going to put in either the oil or the burning rag!!

[Timleech]

THE BLACK HOLE

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

AND Kneeling down before you Tim - full repect

BUT -

Not this one you haven't.

 

Facinated to know where are you going to put in either the oil or the burning rag!!

 

Take off the two valve rocker covers on the inlet side, that will expose the inlet ports. Four or five squirts with an oilcan into each port will help to seal the piston rings and raise the compression ratio slightly. Likewise the flaming rag can be held above the ports, or under the air intake box on the side if you haven't taken off the covers. Be aware, though, that the box should have a layer of coconut matting which is probably soaked in oil if it's been there a long time and could conceivably start to smoulder if you overdo it. These days a little gas blowlamp is a much easier and safer way to introduce warm air to the intakes.

The flaming rag is an old dodge which is maybe a bit too dramatic for modern sensibilities and an elfinsafety aware world.

 

Incidentally the valve covers would originally be held on by screws with knurled heads, so that they could be removed & replaced without spanners.

 

Edit - that engine is a bit unusual in that it has the intake box but it's piped up to that dome inlet cover. The usual arrangement is that the intake box has a line of slots in the bottom, above which sits a layer of coconut matting to act as an air silencer and to keep out chewy bits. The other arrangement is RN-style, with an inlet manifold bolted onto the tops of the heads, with a different shape of valve cover to accommodate the manifold.

 

 

Tim

Edited August 26, 2013 by Timleech

[c c]

OR - a quick short squirt of EZStart up the air intake!

 

(The 4 brass plates on the rocker covers hide an oil reservoir which drips oil down via a highly technical pipe cleaner).

 

Between us I hope we haven't put Saxplayer off completely..............

[Timleech]

OR - a quick short squirt of EZStart up the air intake!

 

(The 4 brass plates on the rocker covers hide an oil reservoir which drips oil down via a highly technical pipe cleaner).

 

Between us I hope we haven't put Saxplayer off completely..............

 

Originally they would have been circular steel pressings with a locating lip, and a bit of spring steel to hold them down.

 

He's not been back yet....

 

(actually it's a bit annoying when people ask for advice & then disappear).

 

Tim

[kris88]

They get scared off easily I think

Regards kris