Oil for Lister HA2

[vintagescubaman]

I use Morris lubricants SAE 30 in my HA2, however I was wondering what other people use, and in the Morris SAE 20 would be suitable?

[alan_fincher]

I use Morris lubricants SAE 30 in my HA2, however I was wondering what other people use, and in the Morris SAE 20 would be suitable?

 

I'm sure "Chris B" (formerly "Baldock" will not mind me reposting advice he gave us when be bought "Sickle2 - which has an HA3.##

 

The ha3 holds 12.5lts of oil. Lister's recommended an sae 30 when it was manufactured but we now use an API/cc 10/w40 as a standard oil in this range

It keeps a very good oil pressure and makes the top END A little "wetter". Regular oil/filter changes are essential

The gearbox oil is fed from the engine but the reduction box is sae 80/90 hypoid oil

 

I can't see why identical advice should not apply to the 2-cylinder HA2, other than obviously you will need less of the stuff than the stonking great 12.5 litres required by the HA3. (But as you have already done oil changes, you'll know you still need a lot!).

[Timleech]

I'm sure "Chris B" (formerly "Baldock" will not mind me reposting advice he gave us when be bought "Sickle2 - which has an HA3.##

 

 

The ha3 holds 12.5lts of oil. Lister's recommended an sae 30 when it was manufactured

 

I can't see why identical advice should not apply to the 2-cylinder HA2, other than obviously you will need less of the stuff than the stonking great 12.5 litres required by the HA3. (But as you have already done oil changes, you'll know you still need a lot!).

 

Oh no they didn't!!

 

From the manual, for HA/M & HB/M 2 & 3 cylinder, starting temperatures:-

Up to0C, SAE 10W

0C to 30C, SAE 20/20W

Above 30C, SAE 30

 

This was the old 'Supplement 1' spec, which is equivalent to API CC.

 

Capacity of 2 cylinder is given as 18 or 19 pints, about 11 litres.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

So what would you recommend now to someone with these, Tim, please?

[Timleech]

So what would you recommend now to someone with these, Tim, please?

 

If you can't find API CC 20W, our local blender dropped it a year or so ago and now only do 30s, Chris's recommendation should be fine. Some people complain of greater oil leakage with multigrades, but suck it and see.

I wasn't arguing with his recommendation, only the historic facts

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Some people complain of greater oil leakage with multigrades, but suck it and see.

Oh! I hadn't actually realised the oil was meant to stay in it.

 

What I can say is that that bit of the baseplate that sits under it is never likely to rust from the inside!

[alan_fincher]

If you can't find API CC 20W, our local blender dropped it a year or so ago and now only do 30s...................

 

Tim,

 

I always get confused on these simple matters, but is the "W" in that significant, or is it implied when something is just "SAE 20" that that is the same thing?

 

Morris still do a Golden Film SAE 20 Classic Oil, but don't list it in their "Marine" section.

 

Mind you their on-line price is unfortunately £23.86 + VAT (£28.63) for 5 litres, so filling up an HA3 will be around £72

 

Price apart, is it your view it is better than the 10W/40 oil in an HA, then?

 

(All these Golden Film oils are API-CC)

[ditchcrawler]

Tim,

 

I always get confused on these simple matters, but is the "W" in that significant, or is it implied when something is just "SAE 20" that that is the same thing?

 

Morris still do a Golden Film SAE 20 Classic Oil, but don't list it in their "Marine" section.

 

Mind you their on-line price is unfortunately £23.86 + VAT (£28.63) for 5 litres, so filling up an HA3 will be around £72

 

Price apart, is it your view it is better than the 10W/40 oil in an HA, then?

 

(All these Golden Film oils are API-CC)

You can get a 10% discount by using the code in their advertisments in Towpath

[waterworks]

My manual says

 

0-30 oC SAE 20/20 W

Above 30 oC SAE 30

capacitiy 18 pints crankcase door dipstick or 19 pints crankcase dipstick

[Timleech]

Tim,

 

I always get confused on these simple matters, but is the "W" in that significant, or is it implied when something is just "SAE 20" that that is the same thing?

 

Morris still do a Golden Film SAE 20 Classic Oil, but don't list it in their "Marine" section.

 

Mind you their on-line price is unfortunately £23.86 + VAT (£28.63) for 5 litres, so filling up an HA3 will be around £72

 

Price apart, is it your view it is better than the 10W/40 oil in an HA, then?

 

(All these Golden Film oils are API-CC)

 

 

Alan

 

I'm not really qualified to answer properly.

 

I'm sure their 'Classic' 20W would be fine, seems to fit the original spec perfectly. It does seem expensive, though. How does the price compare with the L-P branded multigrade?

 

30s ought also to be OK, might struggle with sluggish starting on mornings like this though.

 

Tim

 

My manual says

 

0-30 oC SAE 20/20 W

Above 30 oC SAE 30

capacitiy 18 pints crankcase door dipstick or 19 pints crankcase dipstick

 

Same as mine then. Amazing.

 

Tim

[BEngo]

Tim,

 

I always get confused on these simple matters, but is the "W" in that significant, or is it implied when something is just "SAE 20" that that is the same thing?

 

SNIP

 

 

SAE Oil viscosity specifications are supposed to be set out as follows:

 

SAE XX (where XX is between 0 and 50) is a single grade (often confusingly called plain or straight) oil. It is more viscous(thicker) when its cold and less viscous (thinner) when its hot. The variation in viscosity with temperature is usually pretty straight over the operating tempwerature range. The higher the number the thicker the oil is at a given temperature. Hot SAE 10 is very 'thin'. Cold SAE 50 is pretty treacly.

 

SAE XXW/YY. This is a 'multigrade' oil and does not behave like a single grade oil. Viscosity does not rise as fast as would be expected as the oil gets colder The 'W' bit tells us that the oil is as thick at 0C as a single grade XX oil would be at 0C and is as thick at 100C as a single grade YY oil would be at 100C. So, crudely, a SAE 20W/50- oil behaves like an SAE 20 oil (relatively thin) at low temperatures and like a SAE50 oil at running temperatures.

 

I have no idea why there would be a 20W/20 oil designator as this ought to behave like an ordinary SAE20 oil.

 

SAE numbers over 80 are different.

 

N

[jake_crew]

SAE numbers over 80 are different.

SAE numbers over 80 are for gear oils with much higher anti-shear properties. And the 80 does not mean its much thicker than a 50 grade.

 

As Bengo say, its a completely different numbering system to engine lube oils.

[OptedOut]

Been using this stuff for last few years, was just under £10 gallon when I last bought a 5 gallon drum

 

http://www.oils.am/home/243.html

 

Edit: Seems to be £70 a drum now at some outlets!

Edited January 17, 2013 by OptedOut

[ditchcrawler]

Been using this stuff for last few years, was just under £10 gallon when I last bought a 5 gallon drum

 

http://www.oils.am/home/243.html

 

Edit: Seems to be £70 a drum now at some outlets!

API CG-4/SF I don't know what the 4 means.

[OptedOut]

API CG-4/SF I don't know what the 4 means.

 

Never gave it any thought before, should be in this lot though?

 

http://www.oilspecifications.org/api_eolcs.php

[steamraiser2]

It is so unwise to compare the quality of the premium brands with some of budget oils sold in the "trash for cash" shops. A lot of the oil from such places are semi recycled oils with more, or less, additives mixed with a base oil stock. The engine in your boat really is the heart of the beast and deserves better than oil from dubious suppliers.

 

The manufacture of engine oils is a very hi tec and specialist business and obviously reflects in the price. There is a wealth of high quality oils out there suitable for use in narrowboat engines without having to resort to low quality products which are a false economy.Look up what the manufacturer specifies and use it or a direct equivalent.

 

It's a bit like eating cheap sausages, you know the sort, all lips and eyeballs! they won't kill you instantly but over time , if repeated often.......

[Nev]

You can get a 10% discount by using the code in their advertisments in Towpath

 

...and if you forget like I did then following a simple email they refunded the 10% to my card. Top service. Now I just need the time/confidence to do the oil change on Percy !

 

Nev

[bizzard]

If your hand starting these engines I'd say use the 20/20 grade in the the winter ''least resistance'' if your not muscle bound it can make quite a difference to the speed you can swing it compared with a heavier oil.

[OptedOut]

If your hand starting these engines I'd say use the 20/20 grade in the the winter ''least resistance'' if your not muscle bound it can make quite a difference to the speed you can swing it compared with a heavier oil.

 

Very good point. If we hand start we turn de-compressed until oil pressure is detected on guage, there is also a very noticeable increase in 'stiffness' as pressure registers.

Normal procedure for starting after a long idle period is to hand crank to this point and then fire up on starter motor.

[madcat]

my HA loves straight 30, we always favoured Rotella from Shell but now use Morris's Golden Film 30 with not too many additives.

[bargee1759]

HI Folks, I'm new here, so I hope this isn't "old news!"

 

The "W" in oil labeling means it's got detergents in it & "straight" oils don't. In a previous life involved with piston engined aircraft, a newly built or rebuilt engine was always run in using "straight" oil for its 1st 50 hrs or so, then swapped back onto "W" oil. If this wasn't done, the cylinder bores would glaze over & the piston rings never bedded in. They were also single grade oils, not multi-grade.

 

I also have an HA2 & am going through the same debate - Tim's figures are correct from the Lister manual, but the Morris product guide pushes me towards their Gold Film 30, so Madcat's post is heartening!

[alan_fincher]

The "W" in oil labeling means it's got detergents in it & "straight" oils don't.

Sorry, but this simply doesn't sound right to me.

 

Surely it has nothing to do with detergency?

 

I always understood it to be "W" for "Winter". It surely relates to how the oil performs when cold sarting at Winter temperatures, rather than in hooter conditions?

 

(Buzzes off to "Google" it!)

[BEngo]

HI Folks, I'm new here, so I hope this isn't "old news!"

 

The "W" in oil labeling means it's got detergents in it & "straight" oils don't. In a previous life involved with piston engined aircraft, a newly built or rebuilt engine was always run in using "straight" oil for its 1st 50 hrs or so, then swapped back onto "W" oil. If this wasn't done, the cylinder bores would glaze over & the piston rings never bedded in. They were also single grade oils, not multi-grade.

 

I also have an HA2 & am going through the same debate - Tim's figures are correct from the Lister manual, but the Morris product guide pushes me towards their Gold Film 30, so Madcat's post is heartening!

Not true.

 

 

Mineral Oils are graded by SAE according to their measured viscosity at 100 C. Higher numbers mean higher viscosities. The range runs from 0 to 60. Mineral Oil viscosity decreases as the temperature rises so any SAE xx oil is less viscous (thinner) at 100 C than it is at room temperature and thicker at 0 C than it is at room temperature. This is inconvenient because hot, thinner oil may not cut the lubricating mustard in a highly loaded engine . So the oil industry invented multi-grade oils. These behave a bit like two different oils and are given two designations SAE 20W/50

 

The W in an SAE oil designation refers to its viscosity at a cold temperature (usually 0 C.) So an SAE 20W/50 has the same viscosity at 0 C as an SAE 20 oil would have at that temperature and the same viscosity as a 50 grade oil would have at 100C. This is achieved by adding viscosity Index improvers.

 

"Straight" oil is mineral oil with no additives. Rare as rocking horse poo these days. The term is often used wrongly to describe single grade oils. Single grade oils have no viscosity index improvers but they do have a whole cocktail additives ranging through anti- wear additives, anti oxidants, detergents, anti-foaming additives and so on, depending on the market requirement and the ingenuity of the oil chemist.. The same additives can be found in multi-grade oils.

 

The purpose of detergents is to keep the internal parts of the engine as clear of sludge as possible by holding the sludge in suspension in the oil. The expectation is that the oil filter will the catch the suspended sludge and the oil can go round again and collect some more. Where filtration is poor, or non-existent, as in many old designs of marine engine detergent oils are a bad thing as the sludge suspension is abrasive and accelerates the wear on bearings and other sliding surfaces. Old engines therefore need low detergent oil so that the sludge can fall out of the oil in the sump or oil tank for dry-sump engines. To give the oil enough time to settle out the sludge old/low filtration engines tend to have larger oil capacities than is strictly necessary for lubrication or cooling purposes.

 

I know a little about aircraft piston engines, and suspect that the single grade oil in the OP's example was simply one which contained less anti-wear additives and more of the specialist ones which promote running-in. Once run-in a multi-grade would then be used to ease cold-starting. Most oil companies produced a running-in oil and once upon a time new cars were delivered filled with one of them. This went out of fashion once manufacturing could produce surface finishes and finish tolerances that were similar to those of a run-in engine.

 

 

Synthetic oils are something completely other.

 

 

N

[George94]

Not true.

 

 

Mineral Oils are graded by SAE according to their measured viscosity at 100 C. Higher numbers mean higher viscosities. The range runs from 0 to 60. Mineral Oil viscosity decreases as the temperature rises so any SAE xx oil is less viscous (thinner) at 100 C than it is at room temperature and thicker at 0 C than it is at room temperature. This is inconvenient because hot, thinner oil may not cut the lubricating mustard in a highly loaded engine . So the oil industry invented multi-grade oils. These behave a bit like two different oils and are given two designations SAE 20W/50

 

The W in an SAE oil designation refers to its viscosity at a cold temperature (usually 0 C.) So an SAE 20W/50 has the same viscosity at 0 C as an SAE 20 oil would have at that temperature and the same viscosity as a 50 grade oil would have at 100C. This is achieved by adding viscosity Index improvers.

 

"Straight" oil is mineral oil with no additives. Rare as rocking horse poo these days. The term is often used wrongly to describe single grade oils. Single grade oils have no viscosity index improvers but they do have a whole cocktail additives ranging through anti- wear additives, anti oxidants, detergents, anti-foaming additives and so on, depending on the market requirement and the ingenuity of the oil chemist.. The same additives can be found in multi-grade oils.

 

The purpose of detergents is to keep the internal parts of the engine as clear of sludge as possible by holding the sludge in suspension in the oil. The expectation is that the oil filter will the catch the suspended sludge and the oil can go round again and collect some more. Where filtration is poor, or non-existent, as in many old designs of marine engine detergent oils are a bad thing as the sludge suspension is abrasive and accelerates the wear on bearings and other sliding surfaces. Old engines therefore need low detergent oil so that the sludge can fall out of the oil in the sump or oil tank for dry-sump engines. To give the oil enough time to settle out the sludge old/low filtration engines tend to have larger oil capacities than is strictly necessary for lubrication or cooling purposes.

 

I know a little about aircraft piston engines, and suspect that the single grade oil in the OP's example was simply one which contained less anti-wear additives and more of the specialist ones which promote running-in. Once run-in a multi-grade would then be used to ease cold-starting. Most oil companies produced a running-in oil and once upon a time new cars were delivered filled with one of them. This went out of fashion once manufacturing could produce surface finishes and finish tolerances that were similar to those of a run-in engine.

 

 

Synthetic oils are something completely other.

 

 

N

 

Very useful, Bengo. Thanks.

 

Would I be correct in saying that we should avoid synthetic oils because of their propensity to damage the seals on older engines?

[BEngo]

Putting synthetic oil in an old engine is a waste of money. These oils are designed for tasks where ordinary mineral oils can't hack it, even with lots of additives. There are no conditions like that in old engines. There are few conditions like that in most inland boat engines really. High-speed turbocharged lumpy water boat engines might, but even then I'd save my cash unless the manufacturer specifically recommended a synthetic or semi-synthetic oil.

 

The seal thing is uncertain- most older engines tend to have simple fibre, 'paper' or cork gasket type seals with throwers at the crankcase so are not really that vulnerable.

 

N