Invisible overstaying charges

[CathyC]

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knew what had happened to the BW plans I first heard about last summer to dispense with patrol notices and letters telling overstayers to move it, and just add a charge of something like £25 a day to peoples' license fee when they come to renew. I wasn't looking for any moralising, just some hard facts. It's my first post on this esteemed site, so go easy on me guys. Thanks.

[alan_fincher]

I wasn't looking for any moralising, just some hard facts. It's my first post on this esteemed site, so go easy on me guys. Thanks.

As this comes up as your 21st post, I think you have got confused somewhere, Cathy!

[lewisericeric]

Well it's not happened around here. Same 3 or 4 boats are ALWAYS here and we have a warden come round every two weeks. She came yesterday and one of these boats moved.... A few meters up.

 

Its licensed expired in march 2012 and it hasn't got a mooring. Really annoying when we probably pay nearly £200 for our mooring and the license fee and he's getting the same services for....nowt!

 

I'm sounding like a bitter old man now aren't I, but why should it be allowed? Why isn't more being done?

 

Who knows !

 

However, where do CRT stand when someone who has incurred £25 quid for xxx days and then their next license costs 2.5k with the licensee then claiming they can't afford it? Do they not allow that person to have a new license? Air lift the boat out?? How far can they go?

Edited January 10, 2013 by lewisericeric

[Auntyfab]

My reading of the legislation suggests that it would be difficult for CRT to prevent issuing licences because of over-staying charges, but this does not mean that I am right or that CRT take account of their vires issues.

[alan_fincher]

But to answer your question, as best as I can.....

 

IIRC you are probably in the South East, (though I may have that wrong).

 

At the South East user group meeting they said they were trying to move towards a charge for overstaying at popular sites. Note that they had to keep correcting themselves away from the use of words line "fine" or "penalty", because if pushed they concede they don't have powers to "fine", only to "charge" for services, (the "service" here would be letting you stay longer than the prescribed time).

 

However when pressed they both conceded they had never yet levied such charges (in the South East region), because they believe they can't without clear and unambiguous signage being in place making those potential "charges" clear.

 

They did say they were moving both towards putting up the signage at sites where it would apply, but also implementing better technology for patrol officers and back office systems that will mean it is much easier to spot the overstayers.

 

My memory though is that this all related to staying longer on moorings designated as less than 14 days, (typically on popular 24 or 48 hour ones), not to allowing overstays at sites that still allow the legally permitted 14 day maximum.

 

In fact as the 14 days is enshrined in the act, can CRT actually allow exceeding it for a charge? On that I'm not clear.

 

Sally Ash intimated at a recent meeting in Milton Keynes that the South East region might have jumped the gun in some of the things they are proposing to do, without adequate consultation, and that further consultation might now follow. However I have seen nothing that says it will, or will not, so it is not impossible that plans are still being pressed ahead with - if an opportunity arises on Monday, I will try and find out.

[Auntyfab]

I was in the South East but I am now in the Midlands. Interestingly a friend of mine had a patrol notice issued in the week before Christmas for overstaying on a 48 hour mooring (no penalty notice shown) although they had not been there longer than 14 days. They have asked CRT to rescind the notice - watch this space.

[alan_fincher]

Well it's not happened around here. Same 3 or 4 boats are ALWAYS here and we have a warden come round every two weeks. She came yesterday and one of these boats moved.... A few meters up.

 

Its licensed expired in march 2012 and it hasn't got a mooring. Really annoying when we probably pay nearly £200 for our mooring and the license fee and he's getting the same services for....nowt!

 

I'm sounding like a bitter old man now aren't I, but why should it be allowed? Why isn't more being done?

As the head of enforcement said to us at a recent meeting, unless you have actually talked to the boaters involved, and they have given you a true story, you don't actually know for certain what the situation is, only what you think the situation must be.

 

How do you know a boats licence has expired? How do you know what "discussions" are taking place between CRT and the licence holder, or whether they are part of the very considerable number already within the enforcement process?

 

Do you know for definite that the owners of any of the boats have not been given permission by CRT to overstay, perhaps because someone needs access to medical facilities or a sick relative?

 

Of course, before you say so, I know, as you do, that there are vast numbers of people simply taking the p**s, and of course there is a very good chance that is the case with some or all of the boats you are complaining about - I'm not naive!

 

But do you actually know the real circumstances for certain?

 

What I can say sees to be in little doubt is an intent by CRT to start getting a lot more heavy handed on those they feel are least sticking to their interpretation of rules. There is very firm evidence of this in some areas, with whole areas of tow-path suddenly vacated that have been permanently moored by the same boats for very long periods.

 

Perhaps such activities have not spread to where you are yet, but I suspect there is a strong chance they will!

[Auntyfab]

As the head of enforcement said to us at a recent meeting, unless you have actually talked to the boaters involved, and they have given you a true story, you don't actually know for certain what the situation is, only what you think the situation must be.

 

How do you know a boats licence has expired? How do you know what "discussions" are taking place between CRT and the licence holder, or whether they are part of the very considerable number already within the enforcement process?

 

Do you know for definite that the owners of any of the boats have not been given permission by CRT to overstay, perhaps because someone needs access to medical facilities or a sick relative?

 

Of course, before you say so, I know, as you do, that there are vast numbers of people simply taking the p**s, and of course there is a very good chance that is the case with some or all of the boats you are complaining about - I'm not naive!

 

But do you actually know the real circumstances for certain?

 

What I can say sees to be in little doubt is an intent by CRT to start getting a lot more heavy handed on those they feel are least sticking to their interpretation of rules. There is very firm evidence of this in some areas, with whole areas of tow-path suddenly vacated that have been permanently moored by the same boats for very long periods.

 

Perhaps such activities have not spread to where you are yet, but I suspect there is a strong chance they will!

 

Well said.

 

Like somebody elses marriage - you never know the full story!

[CathyC]

Thanks so much guys, especially Mr Fincher! I meant my first thread rather than post. My biggest issue with the plans was the lack of warning, and only then the astronomical price. There was a v febrile atmosphere last summer when I heard about these plans and at the time it seemed as though BW could do anything it wanted and just intended to drive us all from the waterways. It seems from what you're saying that they're a bit more restrained than that, and that there would at least be some warning if such things came to pass. The person who told me said BW would just include the charges policy in license smallprint, so they could simply turn round and say, 'Well you agreed to this when you renewed your license', but maybe not. Anyway, yes, it would be great to get the question asked. See you Monday.

 

Btw, I'm not a big overstayer at all; but it does happen from time to time.

[alan_fincher]

Thanks so much guys, especially Mr Fincher! I meant my first thread rather than post. My biggest issue with the plans was the lack of warning, and only then the astronomical price. There was a v febrile atmosphere last summer when I heard about these plans and at the time it seemed as though BW could do anything it wanted and just intended to drive us all from the waterways. It seems from what you're saying that they're a bit more restrained than that, and that there would at least be some warning if such things came to pass. The person who told me said BW would just include the charges policy in license smallprint, so they could simply turn round and say, 'Well you agreed to this when you renewed your license', but maybe not. Anyway, yes, it would be great to get the question asked. See you Monday.

Cathy,

 

If I'm honest, frankly, I think the clear message that "Jenlyn" gave to the attendees of the last Cowley and Uxbridge meeting was good advice.

 

Namely stick to the displayed times, if you have no special dispensation not to, and always try to move on before you are overstaying.

 

There seemed to be a surprising (!) degree of acceptance from many present that that was fair, (even though some were quite candid they didn't aways manage it!), and according to "Jenlyn" a small flotilla was spotted the next day.

 

I think if anybody who doesn't have any special dispensation from CRT is looking to regularly overstay they may end up disappointed.

 

That said, the meetings now going on are making some what I consider a number of sensible suggestions, and CRT are certainly listening, and not rejecting them out of hand.

 

An obvious one is whether moorings designated as short stay, (typically 24 hour or 48 hour) all need to be throughout the whole year, as many then see little use except in the more popular months for leisure boating. In some other CRT regions, apparently, signs designate some moorings as 24/48 hour at popular times, but allow 7 or 14 days at others. That certainly seems sensible to implement more widely, (to me, at least!), and it has been suggested for wider roll-out.

 

The dialogues are also pursuing with CRT whether it might be possible for an additional charge, (far less than the current rates charged for winter moorings), for CC-ers to be permitted during winter months at nominated locations for more than 14 days at each place.

 

Additionally, I hope John ("Cotswoldman") will not mind me saying that he involved in discussions along these lines for people poor enough to be in need of housing benefits, but who currently find it hard to claim them, because of the constant need to be moving on. No doubt that will not please some who think if you haven't got a lot of money you should not be on the 'cut', but it is at least looking for practical solutions to some people's very genuine real problems, and I applaud the campaigning efforts of those involved in these new initiatives.

[lewisericeric]

As the head of enforcement said to us at a recent meeting, unless you have actually talked to the boaters involved, and they have given you a true story, you don't actually know for certain what the situation is, only what you think the situation must be.

 

How do you know a boats licence has expired? How do you know what "discussions" are taking place between CRT and the licence holder, or whether they are part of the very considerable number already within the enforcement process?

 

Do you know for definite that the owners of any of the boats have not been given permission by CRT to overstay, perhaps because someone needs access to medical facilities or a sick relative?

 

Of course, before you say so, I know, as you do, that there are vast numbers of people simply taking the p**s, and of course there is a very good chance that is the case with some or all of the boats you are complaining about - I'm not naive!

 

But do you actually know the real circumstances for certain?

 

What I can say sees to be in little doubt is an intent by CRT to start getting a lot more heavy handed on those they feel are least sticking to their interpretation of rules. There is very firm evidence of this in some areas, with whole areas of tow-path suddenly vacated that have been permanently moored by the same boats for very long periods.

 

Perhaps such activities have not spread to where you are yet, but I suspect there is a strong chance they will!

 

I'm not one to judge quickly, or iudge without facts, but he's a young lad and been around here since before we came, so not sick or needing medical attention or needing to visit sick relatives.

 

And yes I have spoken to him , not about overstaying and or anything like that but he willingly offered the information that he is " taking the p*ss as I know CRT wont do anything. I've been around here for years"

 

He also told me perhaps I shouldn't bother with my mooring and do the same as him!

 

It's something he seems proud of and gloats to anyone he can talk to about it!

[Paul C]

..............

 

Btw, I'm not a big overstayer at all; but it does happen from time to time.

 

Would it happen less often if you were charged £25 each day you did it? Its a question we all need to ask ourselves....

[Rebotco]

I'm not one to judge quickly, or iudge without facts, but he's a young lad and been around here since before we came, so not sick or needing medical attention or needing to visit sick relatives.

 

And yes I have spoken to him , not about overstaying and or anything like that but he willingly offered the information that he is " taking the p*ss as I know CRT wont do anything. I've been around here for years"

 

He also told me perhaps I shouldn't bother with my mooring and do the same as him!

 

It's something he seems proud of and gloats to anyone he can talk to about it!

 

 

Then he's a selfish plonker and exactly the type who are messing it all up for the genuine CCr's.

[Tuscan]

The short stay , long stay in winter is interesting. I am currently moored on towpath great mooring about 50m before the start of visitor moorings half of which are now designated winter moorings at the other end of which are some 48 hr moorings. Talking to a boater just down the towpath also on a normal day mooring he has moved from the paid winter moorings for some peace and quiet away from the noisy generators. If I was a full time CC'er rather than my current part time activities I would not want to be penned into a designated winter space why can't I buy a winter mooring license at a reasonable premium that enables me to stay on any normal 14 day mooring for say a 42 day period or similar, why would I have to be penned into visitor moorings.

[jenlyn]

The short stay , long stay in winter is interesting. I am currently moored on towpath great mooring about 50m before the start of visitor moorings half of which are now designated winter moorings at the other end of which are some 48 hr moorings. Talking to a boater just down the towpath also on a normal day mooring he has moved from the paid winter moorings for some peace and quiet away from the noisy generators. If I was a full time CC'er rather than my current part time activities I would not want to be penned into a designated winter space why can't I buy a winter mooring license at a reasonable premium that enables me to stay on any normal 14 day mooring for say a 42 day period or similar, why would I have to be penned into visitor moorings.

This is what we are attempting to work towards.

[Doorman]

Of course, before you say so, I know, as you do, that there are vast numbers of people simply taking the p**s.

 

As a well travelled boater, would you say that this problem is more prevalent in any particular region of the system?

 

Quite a few of the boaters we meet appear to suggest that it is and moreover, it is in the southern stretches where the urine extraction process is most popular.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[Tuscan]

This is what we are attempting to work towards.

 

 

Currently on GU Leicester section so can't attend either meeting I'm afraid.

[mrsmelly]

As a well travelled boater, would you say that this problem is more prevalent in any particular region of the system?

 

Quite a few of the boaters we meet appear to suggest that it is and moreover, it is in the southern stretches where the urine extraction process is most popular.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Hi

 

from my experience ( my opinion ) there are far more urine extactors in the southern sections of the system but this could well be due to there being more boats in those particular areas. There have always been plenty on the K and A and definately on the Oxford. I saw very few on the big canals in yorkshire and there doesnt seem to be very many on the Trent. The problem gets worse as more people take to the water trying to avoid land based costs. Personaly I think ccing is the very best way to boat and providing people genuinely use the system and cruise it extensively then I feel they should not need to pay any extra on their licence.However if like more and more seem to do they decide they are fair weather boaters and moor from say nov to march in one very small area then I feel they should pay pro rata what the online moorings in that rough area tend to be. There are urine extractors in all walks of life. I am attending the meeting at Skipton tomorrow and will see first hand what others think and indeed Cart think.

 

Tim

[Bod]

As the head of enforcement said to us at a recent meeting, unless you have actually talked to the boaters involved, and they have given you a true story, you don't actually know for certain what the situation is, only what you think the situation must be.

 

How do you know a boats licence has expired? How do you know what "discussions" are taking place between CRT and the licence holder, or whether they are part of the very considerable number already within the enforcement process?

 

Do you know for definite that the owners of any of the boats have not been given permission by CRT to overstay, perhaps because someone needs access to medical facilities or a sick relative?

 

 

 

Could overstayers with a genuine reason, be issued with a "patrol notice" stating C&RT permission has been granted, and with a moving on/review date, to be displayed, as an acknowledgement of the situation.

 

Rather than what is often seen, a hand written note in very faded biro, "engine broke"

 

Bod

[Chris Pink]

Why would they care what you think? If they have an arrangement with CRT there is no obligation to notify anyone else.

[jenlyn]

Could overstayers with a genuine reason, be issued with a "patrol notice" stating C&RT permission has been granted, and with a moving on/review date, to be displayed, as an acknowledgement of the situation.

 

Rather than what is often seen, a hand written note in very faded biro, "engine broke"

 

Bod

This is something else we have looked at. It would however only be cost effective if it could be done over the internet with an id number, thus allowing the boater to print it off. Not everyone has internet though, or a printer. So it would again revert to a biro on paper perhaps with some sort of id number relating to the reason for overstay.

[Bod]

Why would they care what you think? If they have an arrangement with CRT there is no obligation to notify anyone else.

 

To show good faith?

 

Bod

[Chris Pink]

To show good faith?

 

Bod

 

To whom?

 

Just to amplify; I know someone who has permission from CRT to stay longer on moorings near town because she has active treatment for cancer. You seem to want her to announce this to the world and his wife, CRT know, her friends know, the local boating community know. Why should she tell you?

Edited January 10, 2013 by Chris Pink

[LoneWolf]

I was in the South East but I am now in the Midlands. Interestingly a friend of mine had a patrol notice issued in the week before Christmas for overstaying on a 48 hour mooring (no penalty notice shown) although they had not been there longer than 14 days. They have asked CRT to rescind the notice - watch this space.

 

Was this on a VM near a town or village or one of the 48Hr countryside ones like the ones the SUCC keep extending into all the available space?

 

 

To whom?

 

Just to amplify; I know someone who has permission from CRT to stay longer on moorings near town because she has active treatment for cancer. You seem to want her to announce this to the world and his wife, CRT know, her friends know, the local boating community know. Why should she tell you?

 

well said sir

[Bod]

To whom?

 

Just to amplify; I know someone who has permission from CRT to stay longer on moorings near town because she has active treatment for cancer. You seem to want her to announce this to the world and his wife, CRT know, her friends know, the local boating community know. Why should she tell you?

It would merely show that C&RT accepted the reason was within the rules. No actual reason need be shown.

 

This would prevent the Boater being classed as a C-Moorer by many! and relieve C&RT of the phone calls reporting an overstaying boat.

 

Bod