New build advise

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

SNIP

 

. So why has this not been done befor? Even second hand boats start out as a new boat so the problem stars some where.

 

 

Because in my view successive governments have over very many years decided that the convenience of business men override the rights and expectations of the people.

 

The "enforcers" of such legislation that we have are so underfunded, and to a degree in the pockets of business, all sectors of business feel they can, and do, get away with almost anything.

 

The recent Salisbury's thread shows just how little they fear being taken to court for breach of contract and try to rely upon patently unfair conditions. I had a similar situation with Argos where trading standards told me to accept the shoddy service because it was not worth taking them to court. Once Argos got it into their thick skulls I had a fair idea of the law and was willing to take them to court over a £20 watch they caved in.

 

Watch any evening of commercial TV and not the misleading adds e.g. 80% of women said ------ and then in tiny letters out of 180 - not even 0.0001% of the population I guess. How about the films on demand lot - only £6 a month with no mention of the broadband fees. The engine driven alternator complaint to the Advertising Standards people is still dragging on because they have no teeth to make the company/directors actually suffer for their lies. Then there is the recent oil heater with impossible output and consumption figures.

 

We just have to accept that we are on our own wiht no one to back us up sow have to take care and hope.

 

<rant off>

[Tuscan]

Looks like you've got the message re AM!

 

Can you give us an idea of budget and timescale? There are plenty of decent boat builders out there fitting Wilson/Tyler shells, and I suspect build slots are pretty plentiful at the moment because of the downturn, so that a builder where you'd normally have to wait 18 months or two years to see your start might have a slot for next year.

 

OTOH, if you've got less than say £75k to spend, you'd certainly get a better boat second hand unless you've got really one off requirements.

 

 

Buying a nearly new boat second hand, that's had any build issues ironed out should certainly be factored in. We had ours fitted out as we had specific requirements learnt from previous boats. However we recognise that our boat is worth substantially less than the investment we put into it. She was fitted out on a "pay as you go" type arrangement so at any one time the boat and contents remained ours. This was not without issues from a price and timing perspective but we had no issues with quality of work.

[ditchcrawler]

Buying a nearly new boat second hand, that's had any build issues ironed out should certainly be factored in. We had ours fitted out as we had specific requirements learnt from previous boats. However we recognise that our boat is worth substantially less than the investment we put into it. She was fitted out on a "pay as you go" type arrangement so at any one time the boat and contents remained ours. This was not without issues from a price and timing perspective but we had no issues with quality of work.

 

I think the OP is looking for something a bit out of the ordinary

 

From his earlier posting

 

" We are having a wide bean intending to take it to France and retire eventually we will also be living aboard full time when we do get it. I also have had boats since I was a child we have a family boat and my sister also lives full time on a boat hence always been my dream to live aboard "

[Gatesofrome]

I think the OP is looking for something a bit out of the ordinary

 

From his earlier posting

 

" We are having a wide bean intending to take it to France and retire eventually we will also be living aboard full time when we do get it. I also have had boats since I was a child we have a family boat and my sister also lives full time on a boat hence always been my dream to live aboard "

Yes I am but also a her :-)

[GSer]

Now i know there will be some subtlties that i've missed but the very mention of WilMa can lead to a thread being closed but other individuals can be seemingly ripped apart in a thread with no mod action?

 

Is it a proof of guilt thing?

[MtB]

Now i know there will be some subtlties that i've missed but the very mention of WilMa can lead to a thread being closed but other individuals can be seemingly ripped apart in a thread with no mod action?

 

Is it a proof of guilt thing?

 

None of this makes any sense to me. Can you explain please?

 

Thanks.

 

MtB

[ditchcrawler]

Yes I am but also a her :-)

Sorry, I did see you state that earlier and still typed "he"

[alan_fincher]

Now i know there will be some subtlties that i've missed but the very mention of WilMa can lead to a thread being closed but other individuals can be seemingly ripped apart in a thread with no mod action?

 

Is it a proof of guilt thing?

 

None of this makes any sense to me. Can you explain please?

I may be being dense, but can't immediately think what WilMa is.

 

But I think Gser is questioning how much has been said about Anthony M, with no moderator intervention ?

 

I hope that is because no more has been said about him than is already on public record - I have certainly largely stuck to quoting what has happened in the past, and can't see a problem with doing that.

 

If a moderator thought too much was being said, I would have expected some intervention before now.

 

EDITED: For typing mistakes - still haven't "solved" WilMa, though!

Edited December 27, 2012 by alan_fincher

[LoneWolf]

it's a place where you may or may not go to look at a large selection of boats for sale

 

 

i think

[alan_fincher]

it's a place where you may or may not go to look at a large selection of boats for sale

 

 

i think

You'll get this thread closed!

[PaddingtonBear]

Looks like a minimum of £200,000 to me. and sorry if I have offended you OP

[Ally]

I fear that until the inland boat building/fitting industry can get its house in order then anyone without CONSIDERABLE and detailed knowledge of the industry would be best advised to assume the worst. How can an ordinary person get accurate financial information on a company - especially if they are a sole trader or partnership? Don't say company's house because all too often the accounts available there are either out of date or, shall we say, somewhat optimistic.

 

I even have doubts as to exactly how effective the BMA/CBA would be in a dispute with a builder being a subscription based trade association.

 

Because of the sums involved it is very much caveat emptor but without detailed trade knowledge (e.g. over due accounts from trade suppliers etc. and "the grape vine") the best ordinary people can do is to buy secondhand and if they must have a new boat follow the advice I gave early in this thread. The bottom line is that the public can not trust the trade as a whole so it is about time the trade did more to protect them from the dodgy operators. It is clear that consumer protection legislation can not because of what looks to me like a negligent lack of enforcement.

 

When did you last hear about a successful prosecution for the use of logos on stationary and websites when not members?

 

I am very comfortable with problems being pointed out to potential purchasers.

I for one would be quite happy to show a customer our up to date accounts. Do people ever actually ask I wonder? We've never been asked.

[TTtrad]

Edited December 28, 2012 by TTtrad

[MtB]

Let's see if the OP(LOL) actually gets on the water living the dream, she has alot to learn after two year's of research, living the dream like alot who read this forum "cuckoo" Please OP end this thread and start a BLOG on my building my new boat and new way of life,living the dream, hey what doe's your husband think of this situation, lol

 

Been drinking again TTtrad?

 

lol!

 

MtB

[Gatesofrome]

Been drinking again TTtrad?

 

lol!

 

MtB

I just think he lacks social skills personally and makes assumptions, perhaps it is the beer that brings it out,

Edited December 28, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[Gatesofrome]

To go back to gatesfrome's original request for comment.

 

You have found one of the best quality and biggest hull builders, they only ask £500 up front so there is virtually no risk. At that point you have a shell complete, handed over and paid for in full that you own. I would insure it at that point. That leaves a fitter, and I think that AM has a good reputation as a fitter but a poor historical one as a business man. Having said that should he be chosen to fit the boat as long as a stage payment is agreed and contract drawn up with ownership of the part fitted boat retained by the owner at all times and money handed over only after visiting the boat to be happy that the work has been carried out then I think risk is minimised should AM have a problem in finishing it. Worst case AM does not finish the boat but you have only paid for what has been completed you then have to take the boat to another fitter for completion. Not desirable I know but there should not be a loss of money only the inconvenience and worry and some additional cost to move the boat. You could consider using a surveyor to project manage the fit out as he will verify that each stage has been completed before any more money is handed over, this will add some cost of course.

Thanks you for your response this seems to be logical in comparison to some. I have to say I was expecting stage payments as well but it seems in this case there are not.

 

Thank you to all the people that have been great on here and not resort to being personal, rude and aggressive . When I went on here I did think that this would be a good place to start finding out how to protect myself when starting a new build, seems I should have thought about trolls who just go in these type of sites as they have nothing better to do with their time than offend people. If you are a troll get a life. Sorry this last paragraph will not go to a new response box and not aimed at the person above, trolls know who they are!

Edited December 28, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[BruceinSanity]

Thanks you for your response this seems to be logical in comparison to some. I have to say I was expecting stage payments as well but it seems in this case there are not.

 

 

Not asking for stage payments is really odd; I mean small house builders do as I know from personal experience, and why not, as long as you have independent advice from a surveyor.

 

Whichever builder you go to, if you do get into stage payments, try to make sure that the invoices to the builder for stuff you are paying for, like the engine or the galley fittings, show that they were supplied for your boat and include serial numbers, so that if things do go bad, you have clear title to them.

[ditchcrawler]

Not asking for stage payments is really odd; I mean small house builders do as I know from personal experience, and why not, as long as you have independent advice from a surveyor.

 

Whichever builder you go to, if you do get into stage payments, try to make sure that the invoices to the builder for stuff you are paying for, like the engine or the galley fittings, show that they were supplied for your boat and include serial numbers, so that if things do go bad, you have clear title to them.

Is there any mileage in paying by credit card so that the card company also carry the risk. This could be a complete no runner and just a thought.

I don't quite see where stage payments and invoices with the engine number on etc helps if the engine is not the builders to sell, ie. he has not paid the supplier for it.

[Biggles]

Isn't that only up to £30k

[Gatesofrome]

Had not thought of paying with a credit card, may be possible with stage payments, due to this not being that way, well it appears to be not, still waiting for the contract to arrive! . I did not know that new houses were done with stage payments, shows how long it has been since I sold a house. Thank you all for the great advise I certainly will make sure I get all the serial numbers that is a great tip. I was going to get the receipts so I can follow up suppliers if anything went wrong.

 

Not asking for stage payments is really odd; I mean small house builders do as I know from personal experience, and why not, as long as you have independent advice from a surveyor.

 

Whichever builder you go to, if you do get into stage payments, try to make sure that the invoices to the builder for stuff you are paying for, like the engine or the galley fittings, show that they were supplied for your boat and include serial numbers, so that if things do go bad, you have clear title to them.

I do like your strap line, should have taken that advise years ago :-)

[Graham Davis]

Having the ID numbers of items is not proof they are yours, it only proves they "may" have been intended for your boat. Even having a receipt stating "paid" cannot be trusted, as you don't know whether a paymebt to cover that item has been bounced/rejected after it was written.

[DeanS]

Really the only way to be sure that the thousands of pounds you are planning on spending, is translated into a good experience, and not a bad one...is to USE A SUPPLIER/SUPPLIERS WHO HAVE A GOOD TRACK RECORD AND LOTS OF GOOD REFERRALS.

[Gatesofrome]

Having the ID numbers of items is not proof they are yours, it only proves they "may" have been intended for your boat. Even having a receipt stating "paid" cannot be trusted, as you don't know whether a paymebt to cover that item has been bounced/rejected after it was written.

Interesting I will watch out for that. I was more thinking if the products supplied were falty like pumps or toilets , on the subject of toilets please do not respond any one, if there is one subject that comes up every time I talk to a boater it is what the best toilet to have is and no one aggress in the live aboard world :-)

Edited December 28, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[Up-Side-Down]

In 148 posts I believe that there have only been two references (from Tony and Tam & Di) to the fundamental question that should be asked before embarking a project like this - way before deciding on a builder and/or fitter. And that is 'what am I going to use this boat for in the course of my ownership?'

 

The OP has declared an interest in crossing the Channel and cruising extensively in France. In RCD terms this, IMO, equates to Category B. Tam & Di make a point about the suitability (unsuitability) of many new-build craft designed in the UK for Continental cruising and refer the OP to the Barge Association as part of the basic research process required before commissioning a new vessel.

 

WT build beautiful narrowboats which I have regarded with great envy for many years! The overall shape, and especially the cabin and hull sheer, of their wide-beam boats also appear very appealing in the pictures I have seen. However, is the OP absolutely clear which RCD category the finished craft will meet (and appear on the registration plate - linked to by Tony) and whether it is the best possible boat for their intended continental cruising, which differs widely (and in so many ways) from boating the UK inland waterways?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Up-Side-Down

[Biggles]

In 148 posts I believe that there have only been two references (from Tony and Tam & Di) to the fundamental question that should be asked before embarking a project like this - way before deciding on a builder and/or fitter. And that is 'what am I going to use this boat for in the course of my ownership?'

 

The OP has declared an interest in crossing the Channel and cruising extensively in France. In RCD terms this, IMO, equates to Category B. Tam & Di make a point about the suitability (unsuitability) of many new-build craft designed in the UK for Continental cruising and refer the OP to the Barge Association as part of the basic research process required before commissioning a new vessel.

 

WT build beautiful narrowboats which I have regarded with great envy for many years! The overall shape, and especially the cabin and hull sheer, of their wide-beam boats also appear very appealing in the pictures I have seen. However, is the OP absolutely clear which RCD category the finished craft will meet (and appear on the registration plate - linked to by Tony) and whether it is the best possible boat for their intended continental cruising, which differs widely (and in so many ways) from boating the UK inland waterways?

 

I too have a WB which we intend to take not cruise to France. I did PM Tam as to why a WB was not suitable for France. So far no reply but as its Christmas I'm not surprised. I'm going to start a new thread as I know of at least one other with this question.