I have bilge water am I sinking ??

[MtB]

Hello, I am quite new to the narrow boating world. I have had my 27ft springer narrowboat for about 3 months and have moved it all the way from Ely to Cambridge. About 2 weeks ago I found the toilet room carpet was drenched and this was when I discovered the hatch to the bilges in the floor. Since then I have been pumping out water with a hand pump I would say its now filling up faster I think I have emptied it 5-6 times. I'm quite scared as I've out all my money into this boat.

 

Kirsty,

 

The first thing to say is don't be too scared. A boat actually sinking is VERY rare, and of those, most cases are caused by the users doing something utterly stupid, like hanging the boat up on lock gates or taking it out in rough conditions for which a narrowboat is not designed.

 

All boats take on water one way or another. What we have to do is make sure a method exists of ejecting the water as fast as it is entering, and the boat will not sink. You have a method of pumping the water out (your hand pump) periodically so the boat is not at risk of sinking while you are on it.

 

Now, given the water is making the carpet in the interior of the boat wet, we can rule out the stern gland leakage others have focused on. Springers have a waterproof bulkhead isolating the engine bay. The water MUST be entering the cabin bilge (the space under the cabin floor) from a source forward of the engine bay.

 

The volume of water in the bilge is high, so we are looking for quite a large source of water and I think it is unlikely to be rainwater. Rainwater takes months to accumulate. As the boat has just been surveyed it is vanishingly unlikely to be a perforated hull, although still possible if the surveyor only did a 'drive-by' survey and grabbed the money. The chances of this being a leak from a domestic water pipe are extremely HIGH, particularly as you commented the water tank empties quickly. The standard of plumbing in old Springers can be simply AWFUL in my experience! My money is on a leak in the outlet pipe from the tank on the bow, before the pump, and each time you re-fill the tank a few gallons of water leak out and collect in the cabin bilge.

 

To test this, can you live for a day or two on bottled water? I suggest running the taps until the tank runs dry then pump out the remaining water from the cabin bilge. Now use the boat for a day or two and monitor the water in the cabin bilge. If it stops rising, you've probably found the problem. Now revert to filling the tank and using it normally and see if the cabin bilge water problem returns. If it does, you've cracked it. A plumbing leak.

 

Try the experiment and let us know the result.

 

Hope that helps,

Mike

 

P.S.

 

When I was moving her the bottom did scrape over some hard stones which worried me a bit but it all seemed fine.

 

This is of no consequence. Steel boat hulls are VERY tough and bumping over underwater obstacles is commonplace. Happens to me probably every day I use the boat.

 

Mind you, my bilge is full of water too... (No it isn't, ONLY JOKING!!!!)

[alan_fincher]

Now, given the water is making the carpet in the interior of the boat wet, we can rule out the stern gland leakage others have focused on. Springers have a waterproof bulkhead isolating the engine bay. The water MUST be entering the cabin bilge (the space under the cabin floor) from a source forward of the engine bay.

Sorry Mike, this simply is not always correct.

 

early springers were wet bilged, so water in any part of the hull could travel anywhere else, and that included rainwater in the front well deck going right under the cabin bilge to the engine bilge. (Not that there were separate bilges - they were all one and the same).

 

Later Springers, like the one I guess you are most familiar with, were different, and some early ones may well have been modified to more like later practice.

 

But unless we know what Kirsty has, you cannot assume it is not water from the back, travelling forwards.

[Teadaemon]

We have Rockwool, and no waterproof membrane. Ours is 1990s, not 1970s, but as far as I'm aware, it continued to be quite normal.

 

We don't get a jot of detectable water in the cabin bilge, (unless I manage to break some plumbing), and I would be staggered if the quantities of water being talked about has come from condensation.

 

With the quantities of water being described, and a bit of help from some nearby more experienced boaters, it surely can't be too hard to find the source. Someone will help you look, if you ask nicely, I feel sure.

 

I agree there is little point in most of us speculating, without looking at it.

 

True, having now got more data on the amount of water present I'm discounting condensation as a potential cause in this case (though in certain circumstances it can lead to a lot more water in the bilges than you might think, certainly a bucket or so a day would not be unheard of).

[MtB]

Sorry Mike, this simply is not always correct.

 

early springers were wet bilged, so water in any part of the hull could travel anywhere else, and that included rainwater in the front well deck going right under the cabin bilge to the engine bilge. (Not that there were separate bilges - they were all one and the same).

 

Later Springers, like the one I guess you are most familiar with, were different, and some early ones may well have been modified to more like later practice.

 

But unless we know what Kirsty has, you cannot assume it is not water from the back, travelling forwards.

 

Good point, I stand corrected. I had overlooked the possibility of it being a 'wet bilge' boat.

 

Kirsty, ignore what I said, could still be the stern gland!

 

Mike

[Chris Pink]

 

The volume of water in the bilge is high, so we are looking for quite a large source of water and I think it is unlikely to be rainwater. Rainwater takes months to accumulate. As the boat has just been surveyed it is vanishingly unlikely to be a perforated hull, although still possible if the surveyor only did a 'drive-by' survey and grabbed the money. The chances of this being a leak from a domestic water pipe are extremely HIGH, particularly as you commented the water tank empties quickly. The standard of plumbing in old Springers can be simply AWFUL in my experience! My money is on a leak in the outlet pipe from the tank on the bow, before the pump, and each time you re-fill the tank a few gallons of water leak out and collect in the cabin bilge.

 

 

 

I'm going to join in the speculation now.

 

This statement about rainwater is simply not true. With an open cruiser stern, and a lot of Springers have a wooden fore-deck, rainwater can accumulate at an astonishing rate. After all, the expression 2 inches of rain, not uncommon in the last few months, means exactly that.

 

To summarise (I can feel a Mayall-esque list coming on);

 

The water is one or more of (in no particular order);

 

1. rainwater
   
2. fresh water from the water tank
   
3. stern gland leakage
   
4. a hole in the hull
   
5. a problem with the engine cooling system
   

 

The thing that concerns me most and is the most difficult to diagnose without seeing it is your statement that the bilge pumps out while the engine is running.

 

What type of engine cooling do you have? Picture of your engine please (that always turns the boys on)

 

It may well be that your cooling system is one that involves drawing water in from the canal and pumping it out again and thus unconnected to your wet carpet problem

[John V]

Good point, I stand corrected. I had overlooked the possibility of it being a 'wet bilge' boat.

 

Kirsty, ignore what I said, could still be the stern gland!

 

Mike

 

sometimes they were unintentionally wet bilged, seen one that was definitely seamed on a Friday afternoon!

[alan_fincher]

To summarise (I can feel a Mayall-esque list coming on);

Some of us are, I feel sure, starting to get quite concerned about you Chris!

 

But seriously, Kirsty, this is all good advice, like Chris' last post.

 

Try and enlist someone to look.

 

Unless you can lift boards, or open cupboards, and actively see water appearing from somewhere it should not, you really shouldn't be afraid to ask someone with more experience.

 

You'll hopefully be amazed how much boaters prepared to help each other on the cut, sometimes, for no other reasons than helping a fellow boater.

[bizzard]

If you live on a steel boat in the winter and do a lot of showering, boiling kettles for tea, boiling water for washing clothes, simmering stews all day long ect ect causing water vapour its surprising how much condensation ends up in the bilge.

It could even be tears in there if your prone to crying a lot,''is the water salty?''.

[Caprifool]

Finding fellow boaters IRL is probably the way to go. However on a forum, I find the speculations interesting. They tell me everything it might or might not be according to several individuals experience and situations (And perhaps inexperience) And for example expressions like "measure trice, cut twice" will remind me when and if.......I ever get to change my own.

[Nine of Hearts]

And for example expressions like "measure trice, cut twice" will remind me when and if.......I ever get to change my own.

 

Completely off topic, but I imagine "measure thrice, cut twice" is an encouragement to be even more careful than the more conventional "measure twice, cut once". However, it doesn't make sense, and misunderstands the original which means, if you measure twice, you need only cut once. Cutting more twice is less careful than cutting once, and I presume means that you just confused yourself with the third measurement and f***ed it up.

[Caprifool]

Being a textile person myself, I got exactly what she meant.

[Starcoaster]

Without the back cover on, my Springer's engine bilge will fill with water to the point the auto bilge pump kicks in within a couple of days if the rain is heavy. I'm sure MB knows this, having played the 'am I sinking' game with me about six times now...

Cruiser stern, wooden deck boards, no drainage channels. Genius.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Starcoaster

[boathunter]

Measure twice then have a cup of tea.

[Guest]

Without the back cover on, my Springer's engine bilge will fill with water to the point the auto bilge pump kicks in within a couple of days if the rain is heavy. I'm sure MB knows this, having played the 'am I sinking' game with me about six times now...

Cruiser stern, wooden deck boards, no drainage channels. Genius.

 

Even with channels it can be an issue if you don't keep them scrupulously clean.

 

Our stern/bilge can get rainwater in even with them if the boat is left for any significant period and it rains.

[David Mack]

Yes I have been turning the stern gland (gold thing which you turn the tap on and it releases grease into something... Right? Like an old fashioned silver icing pump) actually ready some of your posts I'm not completely sure that this is the stern gland!

 

Kirsty,

 

If you look down at the back end of the hull you should see something like this (although it may not be as clean and tidy as this one):

 

 

The stern tube is the brass assembly at the right hand side, where the prop shaft from the engine passes through to the outside of the boat,and the stern gland is the bit on the left hand end of it, where the seal is which keeps water out.

 

What you are turning is the greaser, which in the photo is attached to the hull above the stern tube - yours may be elsewhere. There should be a plastic or metal tube connecting the two so that when you screw the greaser down grease is forced into the stern tube (but the tube appears to be missing in this photo).

 

When the engine is off there should be no water dripping from the stern tube. If there is give the greaser half a turn - it may help if you can also turn the prop shaft a little to distribute the grease around inside the stern gland. This should stop the drip.

 

Have a look again with the engine running and in gear. You may find more water comes in then. So at the end of a day's boating, turn the greaser to stop more coming in overnight or while you are away from the boat.

 

If there is lots of water coming through even after turning the greaser, then the stern gland may need adjusting or repacking.

 

(Edited in response to a couple of subsequent comments)

Edited October 26, 2012 by David Mack

[purple_pineapple]

slight OT, but just wanted to thank David Mack for that clear and concise explanation of why I had been carefully giving the stern gland half a turn each night! Having only ever hired boats, I knew to do this, but never knew why I was doing it! Obviously, I could have researched it, but that wasn't a priority when enjoying a week of relaxation! and then i'd forget....

[Gazboatman]

Sorry Mike, this simply is not always correct.

 

early springers were wet bilged, so water in any part of the hull could travel anywhere else, and that included rainwater in the front well deck going right under the cabin bilge to the engine bilge. (Not that there were separate bilges - they were all one and the same).

 

Later Springers, like the one I guess you are most familiar with, were different, and some early ones may well have been modified to more like later practice.

 

But unless we know what Kirsty has, you cannot assume it is not water from the back, travelling forwards.

Yes, my Springer has one continuous bilge from bow to stern.

 

Kirsty,

 

If you look down at the back end of the hull you should see something like this (although it may not be as clean and tidy as this one):

 

 

 

 

Wow! I wish that's what I seen when I lifted the boards at the back end of the hull.

[Starcoaster]

Me too!

[George94]

Kirsty,

 

If you look down at the back end of the hull you should see something like this (although it may not be as clean and tidy as this one):

 

 

The stern tube is the brass assembly at the right hand side, where the prop shaft from the engine passes through to the outside of the boat,and the stern gland is the bit on the left hand end of it, where the seal is which keeps water out.

 

What you are turning is the greaser, which in the photo is attached to the hull above the stern tube - yours may be elsewhere. There should be a plastic tube connecting the two so that when you screw the greaser down grease is forced into the stern tube.

 

When the engine is off there should be no water dripping from the stern tube. If there is give the greaser half a turn - it may help if you can also turn the prop shaft a little to distribute the grease around inside the stern gland. This should stop the drip.

 

Have a look again with the engine running and in gear. You may find more water comes in then. So at the end of a day's boating, turn the greaser to stop more coming in overnight or while you are away from the boat.

 

If there is lots of water coming through even after turning the greaser, then the stern gland may indeed need repacking.

 

Or tightening.

 

I am surprised your grease tube is plastic. I have only ever seen metal ones, usually copper. But I have seen many more sailing yachts and barges than I have narrow-boats.

[Guest]

Ours is plastic (NB)

[alan_fincher]

A transparent plastic tube between greaser and stern gear is pretty normal I would say.

 

Obviously in David Mack's example it has yet to be installed!

[blodger]

Kirsty,

 

If you look down at the back end of the hull you should see something like this (although it may not be as clean and tidy as this one):

 

 

The stern tube is the brass assembly at the right hand side, where the prop shaft from the engine passes through to the outside of the boat,and the stern gland is the bit on the left hand end of it, where the seal is which keeps water out.

 

What you are turning is the greaser, which in the photo is attached to the hull above the stern tube - yours may be elsewhere. There should be a plastic tube connecting the two so that when you screw the greaser down grease is forced into the stern tube.

 

When the engine is off there should be no water dripping from the stern tube. If there is give the greaser half a turn - it may help if you can also turn the prop shaft a little to distribute the grease around inside the stern gland. This should stop the drip.

 

Have a look again with the engine running and in gear. You may find more water comes in then. So at the end of a day's boating, turn the greaser to stop more coming in overnight or while you are away from the boat.

 

If there is lots of water coming through even after turning the greaser, then the stern gland may indeed need repacking.

That engine & engine room must be hidden in a butty to be that clean

[Guest]

Obviously in David Mack's example it has yet to be installed

 

Glad you said that - I thought my eyesight had finally gone for good.

[Keeping Up]

The stern tube is the brass assembly at the right hand side, where the prop shaft from the engine passes through to the outside of the boat,and the stern gland is the bit on the left hand end of it, where the seal is which keeps water out.

 

What you are turning is the greaser, which in the photo is attached to the hull above the stern tube - yours may be elsewhere. There should be a plastic tube connecting the two so that when you screw the greaser down grease is forced into the stern tube.

 

When the engine is off there should be no water dripping from the stern tube. If there is give the greaser half a turn - it may help if you can also turn the prop shaft a little to distribute the grease around inside the stern gland. This should stop the drip.

 

Have a look again with the engine running and in gear. You may find more water comes in then. So at the end of a day's boating, turn the greaser to stop more coming in overnight or while you are away from the boat.

 

If there is lots of water coming through even after turning the greaser, then the stern gland may indeed need repacking.

 

The tube connecting our greaser to the stern tube is copper. Personally I have seen more metal ones than plastic.

 

The last line of David's excellent response above should perhaps include, before the suggestion of repacking the stern gland, that first it may simply need adjusting.

 

Edited to add: although my money is still on the possibility that the water is coming from the fresh-water tank, or perhaps from the pipe between the tank and the pump.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Keeping Up

[RLWP]

Ours is plastic. You can see air bubbles being forced down it when it has been refilled

 

Richard