How Many Ways Can A Boat Sink?

[Tuscan]

Yes I agree it could be worth it, it could also be worth renting a covered dry dock to store her over winter just in case ... I am sorry my remark is somewhat flippant.

 

We are costing up making the hold bilge pump into an auto one at the moment. We will do whatever the team consider good value for money things to ensure we are not faced with the same scenario again. We could go on and on but a line has to be drawn and there will always be different people who have different ideas about how necessary a piece of equipment is on a boat (for example when we got involved earlier this year we could not comprehend there being NO electric bilge pump at all on an old boat. She had been run that way for 2 years though.

We prefer not to spend any money that is unnecessary as by spending it on Python we are nt spending money on restoring a canal. It is a fine line to tread to safeguard, maintain and protect Python as a piece of our boating heritage without it costing more than can be justified when her role within The Chesterfield Canal Trust is as a publicity vehicle for their cause. All of the crew love the old lass to bits but she is much more than just a boys toy and she has to earn (or we have to fundraise) every penny that is spent on her.

 

 

 

 

If Python is the principle way of taking the fundraising for the Chesterfield to a wider audience , which I think it is, then the trust should spend what it needs (within obvious sensible limits) to sort the problem out and to ensure Python remains intact as it isin fact a good revenue source. If this is perhaps not the case but more of an excuse for he volunteers to play with an old boat around the summer shows then maybe she be sold and better use made of the funds.

 

What's the total now?

[cheshire~rose]

If Python is the principle way of taking the fundraising for the Chesterfield to a wider audience , which I think it is, then the trust should spend what it needs (within obvious sensible limits) to sort the problem out and to ensure Python remains intact as it isin fact a good revenue source. If this is perhaps not the case but more of an excuse for he volunteers to play with an old boat around the summer shows then maybe she be sold and better use made of the funds.

 

What's the total now?

 

It is the definition of sensible when being discussed by a group of individuals which is always going to be a greay area.

 

A pessimist will feel that we should stop at nothing short of the dry dock suggestion and an optimist will want to spend as little money as possible. The correct line is somewhere between the two. Who wants to draw that line in the sand - fall short and be proved wrong the next time she takes a dip or go for the heavy duty belt and braces and have to explain your reasoning to the treasurer.

 

It will all come out in the wash (hopefully not in canal water) and that is one reason why this discussion is proving so valuable. I can sit here and type away knowing the rest of the team are probably lurking and reading as I type. (Yes David K - that means you too) It is always useful to know what other peple would do faced with the same dilemma and it can be very helpful in ensuring any money that is spent is not spent on things which end up a white elephant

 

(Total? - I have no idea - I will ask for an update again - or perhaps you can add your quaestion to the original thread? Common sense tells me the total has been reached but it has not been confirmed to me - I will try and follow it up this week - I have been preoccupied with a sinking boat!)

[Laurence Hogg]

Cheshire , just read your OP again, what does this mean? " The new bilge pump emptied through a drain on the weed hatch so from then on it was impossible to know when or how often the pump was running when we were on the move. We continued to monitor the situation and the pump kept the water down while moving and did not operate at all when static"

 

How can you have a drain in a sealed weedhatch?

 

If a pipe has been connected to the plate then prop pressure will be greater than any bilge pump and flood through the pump.

 

Also you noted that the stern gear was "repacked", presumably this is the original 2" Yarwoods stern gear? If so has the right type of packing been used as modern stuff will not be up to the job of the old graphite soaked compressed cotton.

A 2" stern gear can leak dramitcly underway but stop with the pressure of the greaser when still or very slow.

 

As for expert eyes looking at her, beware, we all can be blind sometimes. Our Tucana was looked over by several sets of acclaimed expert eyes, on arrival at the yard for refit it was discovered that the bottom we all thought was good was not and now she is in for 45ft of new plates!

[cheshire~rose]

Cheshire , just read your OP again, what does this mean? " The new bilge pump emptied through a drain on the weed hatch so from then on it was impossible to know when or how often the pump was running when we were on the move. We continued to monitor the situation and the pump kept the water down while moving and did not operate at all when static"

 

How can you have a drain in a sealed weedhatch?

 

If a pipe has been connected to the plate then prop pressure will be greater than any bilge pump and flood through the pump.

 

Also you noted that the stern gear was "repacked", presumably this is the original 2" Yarwoods stern gear? If so has the right type of packing been used as modern stuff will not be up to the job of the old graphite soaked compressed cotton.

A 2" stern gear can leak dramitcly underway but stop with the pressure of the greaser when still or very slow.

 

As for expert eyes looking at her, beware, we all can be blind sometimes. Our Tucana was looked over by several sets of acclaimed expert eyes, on arrival at the yard for refit it was discovered that the bottom we all thought was good was not and now she is in for 45ft of new plates!

I explained my error in describing the drain through the weed hatch in post 12:

 

"Sorry I have probably sent everyone off on a red herring there. In fact there is an inpsection hatch in the rear counter as you find on may old boats. This has a gutter under it that collects the rainwater and this then drains into the weedhatch. It is this drain that the bilge pump drains through. The lowest point on that which is open is about an inch below the counter and so for it to syphon back the counter would need to be alost below water first and by that time the engine exhaust would be under. "

 

I do not remember the dimension quoted for the repacking of the stern gear now but I do remember Paul Barber telling me that many boatyards will try and get away with repacking with the modern stuff when these old boats have some larger stuff what he said seems to tie in with what you are suggesting and I feel certain that it has the proper packing.

 

I did say in my post, we are all human and these old boats can be experts at keeping secrets from us all so no one os suggesting that there may not be something that has been missed - even Paul himself said he could not be 100% certain it is the nature of old boats. What I was trying to suggest was that the people who were doing their bit for Python's bottom were not just random boatyard operatives but people who have a long history of working with old boats and have eyes tuned in to the clues. It does make a difference

[Laurence Hogg]

Cheshire, the only way to solve this is to lift it out or dry dock it. My moneys on a fractured plate.

[cheshire~rose]

Cheshire, the only way to solve this is to lift it out or dry dock it. My moneys on a fractured plate.

 

I am sorry Laurence, while I understand that having her out of the water gives a better opportunity to spot what might have caused the problem I am wondering which problem it is that you suggest could be a fractured plate? The original problem, her taking on water when motoring but not static or the second problem of her sinking overnight while static (or do you feel the two are potentially the same issue?)

The fact that she was only out of the water 2 weeks ago and the problem that was causing her to take on water while motoring was apparently corrected and at that time anything that was spotted that might be a potential problem was righted. Since then she has not taken on a single drop of water anywhere, except for on one occasion when she did so spectacularly.

 

If there is a fractured plate somewhere which was not spotted when she was out of the water (I admit this is completely possible by the way) then why has it not continued to leak once she has been righted.

[smileypete]

We are costing up making the hold bilge pump into an auto one at the moment. We will do whatever the team consider good value for money things to ensure we are not faced with the same scenario again. We could go on and on but a line has to be drawn and there will always be different people who have different ideas about how necessary a piece of equipment is on a boat (for example when we got involved earlier this year we could not comprehend there being NO electric bilge pump at all on an old boat. She had been run that way for 2 years though.

I'd have thought an automatic pump is essential for a boat with water ingress issues.

 

The aforementioned float switch costs £20, plus £5ish for some small hole galvanised 'mouse mesh' to make a cage that goes round or under the pump and switch to protect from debris.

 

If you can find an old quartz car clock, that can be used as a cheap way of timing an automatic bilge pump, maybe have a warning light that goes on too.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 1, 2012 by smileypete

[cheshire~rose]

I'd have thought an automatic pump is essential for a boat with water ingress issues.

 

The aforementioned float switch costs £20, plus £5ish for some small hole galvanised 'mouse mesh' to make a cage that goes round or under the pump and switch to protect from debris.

 

If you can find an old quartz car clock, that can be used as a cheap way of timing an automatic bilge pump, maybe have a warning light that goes on too.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Thanks Pete

Agreed, an auto bilge pump is considered essential which is why they were looking at the prices this weekend so we can get it sorted out/ It was the idea of having two bilge pumps in the engine room which may be seen as belt and braces but might equally be seen as additional expense that is not really necessary

[bizzard]

I'd have thought an automatic pump is essential for a boat with water ingress issues.

 

The aforementioned float switch costs £20, plus £5ish for some small hole galvanised 'mouse mesh' to make a cage that goes round or under the pump and switch to protect from debris.

 

If you can find an old quartz car clock, that can be used as a cheap way of timing an automatic bilge pump, maybe have a warning light that goes on too.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

More reliable might be a proper clockwork wind up alarm clock Pete. One bell could be substituted with electrical contacts wired to a relay which then energizes the binge pump. Once the alarm is set and it goes off at the the set time one bell would still ring to attract attention. Its just remembering to keep it wound up.

[Laurence Hogg]

I am sorry Laurence, while I understand that having her out of the water gives a better opportunity to spot what might have caused the problem I am wondering which problem it is that you suggest could be a fractured plate? The original problem, her taking on water when motoring but not static or the second problem of her sinking overnight while static (or do you feel the two are potentially the same issue?)

The fact that she was only out of the water 2 weeks ago and the problem that was causing her to take on water while motoring was apparently corrected and at that time anything that was spotted that might be a potential problem was righted. Since then she has not taken on a single drop of water anywhere, except for on one occasion when she did so spectacularly.

 

If there is a fractured plate somewhere which was not spotted when she was out of the water (I admit this is completely possible by the way) then why has it not continued to leak once she has been righted.

Would not your time be better spent getting on the damn boat and finding the leak. It isnt rocket science. Winging away on here will not stop it sinking.

Time to bite the bullet, hands in pockets, money out and a crane - or sink again maybe.

Boats sink everyday, its not un heard of. You are starting to sound like a drama queen.

[cheshire~rose]

Would not your time be better spent getting on the damn boat and finding the leak. It isnt rocket science. Winging away on here will not stop it sinking.

Time to bite the bullet, hands in pockets, money out and a crane - or sink again maybe.

Boats sink everyday, its not un heard of. You are starting to sound like a drama queen.

 

I am very sorry if I come across like a drama queen. That is not my intention and I am sorry if the words I have typed have caused any offence.

 

Some of the crew have been on board doing stuff this weekend. I have not been able as I have had to be available to sort out a problem with our own boat. Whilst one or two of the crew are members of the forum they are not all as confident as me about posting stuff on here and so while I could not be up on The Chesterfield Canal with hands on looking for a potential source of a leak I felt I could help posting details of the conundrum that faced the team who are trying to make sure she stays afloat in the hope that some of the people on here that know so much more than what we do might give us a few clues of what direction we could focus our efforts in. In fact it has been most useful and there is an email communication chain between the crew who are managing this containing several of the suggestions that have been made on here. When working in a team it is usually best to harness the strengths of each of the team. Just because I am not the person in that team who is actually doing the work does that make my value to any less?

 

You may well be correct and she does need to come out of the water again to fix the fault but right now as she is doing a very good impression of being 100% watertight it is going to be much better if we first of all check off all the things we can check without taking her out of the water and then ensure she has some safeguards put in place so if the worst happens we are alerted to the problem without undue delay. No one in their right mind would be spend the money to lift a boat out that appears to be watertight without first checking off the things they can do so whle it is still in the water. After all, as you say, boats sink every day, especially old ones!

 

If she does need to come out again then it is not so easy as just hiring a crane. Firstly we would have to book passge through a lock that she does not fit through to wind her and make sure we can get volunteer crew available on the day CRT want to do it. If big money needed to be spent then that would have to be approved. It is not about me sticking my hands in my pocket. It is a charity and these things have to be cleared. The wonderful thing about having access to such a great band of knowledgable individuals on this forum is that informed decisions about how to spend charity money can be made by people who otherwise may have a limited knowledge of the subject matter.

 

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to respond to this thread. There are some really good ideas have been put forward and several of them are currently being worked on by the crew.

[alan_fincher]

I have tried to read as much of this as possible, but I always struggle to get a good idea in situations where it is virtually all textual description, and there are very few pictures.

 

If knowledgeable people on the ground have failed to identify what caused it, when they can peer at every bit of the boat, I think it is quite hard to add a lot here except pure speculation.

 

I would be interested in seeing as many pictures as can be provided, particularly of everything pertaining to weed-hatch, that lid in the rear deck, and associated drains and pumps.

 

An assumption has been made, (indeed perhaps it is definitely known!), that a weed-hatch was put there by BW when they "cut" the boat. Now, I'm no expert, but have never until now heard of BW putting a weed-hatch into any former working boat that they shortened and converted for maintenance use. Are we sure that is its origins, because it is outside of my (albeit limited!), knowledge of such things.

 

I'm also interested in this bulkhead forward of the engine. Are you definitely saying that all the water that made it into the engine space was contained in the rear part by that bulkhead ? Something doesn't quite add up to me, if it is really true that the boat was then found with the gunwales not far from under water, as it would seem to imply to me that the back end had sunk by virtually the complete depth of the counter. I don't know how far forward that bulkhead is, (how far is it ?), but I'm surprised that if you had the complete buoyancy of the entire boat forward of the bulkhead, with no water making it in it any of that space, that the boat was actually capable of sinking as far as you describe.

 

I'm also surprised if the back-end was that far down that the engine was not sufficiently engulfed that trying to restart it would not have been sensible. Did all places water could have entered the engine manage to remain above the flood water, or did they just wing it, hoping it would not make things worse ?

 

What volume of water is it estimated was in there, and subsequently bailed out, please ?

 

Finally, I appreciate the last thing people think of doing in a situation like this is to photograph the carnage, but if that had been done, it would probably have aided our understanding.

[larkshall]

Failed skin fitting that is only below the water line when underway?

 

Knackered uxter plate?

 

Next time she's in dock fill her full of water and see where it leaks out.

 

 

That is not so bad an idea. They originally tried this when the boat was out for blacking, but I don't think there was enough water in the hull to rise water pressure enough to reveal a leak. I also think running the motor when out of water might have revealed a loose plate or rivet etc as the vibration plus water pressure might have enabled water to seep out. I would have liked the hull to have been x-rayed when out as well. (Very costly for a charity I know). I've read C Roses blog as well, and I think they tried all the obvious things so its a real quandary. From the blog, , and it is an assumption, I dont think there is much in the way of skin fittings, been aircooled, and very basic plumbing.

Edited October 1, 2012 by larkshall

[Derek R.]

Someone's going to have to kip in the engine'ole for a few nights and days with an auto switched bilge pump attached to an audible alarm. If they're lucky they might catch the Faeries at it.

 

She's an ex-Josher, but I presume she's all steel nowadays?

[Tiggers]

Would not your time be better spent getting on the damn boat and finding the leak. It isnt rocket science. Winging away on here will not stop it sinking.

Time to bite the bullet, hands in pockets, money out and a crane - or sink again maybe.

Boats sink everyday, its not un heard of. You are starting to sound like a drama queen.

 

I dont think your tone is entirely necessary, particularly as Cheshire Rose along with a lot of other people have obviously been trying to figure this out, I personally think sometimes asking other their opinion and help can prove successful, especially if you have come to a dead end.

[Athy]

wired to a relay which then energizes the binge pump.

I think you've found a gap in the market: such binge pumps would sell well and would be useful the morning after a particularly convivial banter, when people are most in need of being energised.

[larkshall]

I think you've found a gap in the market: such binge pumps would sell well and would be useful the morning after a particularly convivial banter, when people are most in need of being energised.

 

 

Connect the bilge pump sensor to a birdscarer, should wake the dead in confined spaces.

[BargeeSpud]

Have you got any deck access hatches?

 

Only reason I ask is because in the early days with my 1st boat, she filled up here engine room to halfway up the block due to heavy rain & blocked drainage holes for the weed hatch access cover on the stern counter. Thank goodness for the steel bulkhead that contained the water in the engine room only! My ignorance at the time could have cost me dearly, a lucky escape.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Spuds

[RLWP]

How do I sink thee? Let me count the ways.

I sink thee to the depth and breadth and height...

 

Richard

Edited October 2, 2012 by RLWP

[BargeeSpud]

How do I sink thee? Let me count the ways.

I sink thee to the depth and breadth and height...

 

Richard

I'd sink you when you're.......

 

I'd better leave it there I think.

[larkshall]

How do I sink thee? Let me count the ways.

I sink thee to the depth and breadth and height...

 

Richard

 

 

Richard , go back to the day job, or how about that website of yours?

[RLWP]

Elizabeth Lee-Browning .303, innit

[larkshall]

Elizabeth Lee-Browning .303, innit

 

See the website still has only a holding page...nag...nag...nag

[Athy]

Elizabeth Lee-Browning .303

Was she petite and tedious? A small bore .303 in fact?

[RLWP]

See the website still has only a holding page...nag...nag...nag

 

Yes, my website designers and I are having creative discussions

 

Richard

 

How do I sink thee? Let me count the ways.

I sink thee to the depth and breadth and height

my arm can reach, when feeling out of sight

for the ends of Bearings and ideal Grease.

...

 

Richard