What is a safe number of passengers?

[KenK]

I've not got the reference to hand, but I think you will find that any vessel carrying more than 12 passengers is defined as a passenger boat and must therefore comply. Payment or non-payment is not a consideration.

 

We asked this question to the MCA earlier this year when moving one of the trip boats from Devises to Newbury, as we were considered to be crew because we were not paying for passage the limit didn't apply nor did we need a Boatmaster.

 

Ken

[Tam & Di]

We asked this question to the MCA earlier this year when moving one of the trip boats from Devises to Newbury, as we were considered to be crew because we were not paying for passage the limit didn't apply nor did we need a Boatmaster.

 

Ken

 

But that is only applicable to a vessel carrying UP TO 12 passengers. Once over that I am fairly sure it is irrelevant whether or not they pay. On canals and upper reached of rivers such as the Thames the vessel has to comply with Category D requirements - i.e. where the wave height is (I believe) <1.5m.

 

I think that even in your case they might have been rather generous - there is something about a boat which has been approved as a passenger vessel when is moved from one location to another as required by the operator, but I can't remember it all exactly.

 

I don't know that the OP is considering that many though.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Tam & Di

[mayalld]

But the twelve does not include crew, I think - it is just pure passengers. Being slightly tongue in cheek, but if you are armed with a windlass, I think you can be counted as crew.

 

It is indeed 12 plus crew.

 

Some years ago, I took a party out on the "Spirit of Youth" (ex Trafford), which was fitted wih 16 bunks.

 

The owners had sought guidance from the MCA, and the advice that they had received was as follows;

 

1) In order to be designated as "crew", that person must actually be participating in the navigation of the vessel.

2) In any case, they would regard it as unreasonable for more than three crew members to 12 passengers to be claimed.

 

This sets a upper limit of 15 people without a boatmaster.

[KenK]

But that is only applicable to a vessel carrying UP TO 12 passengers. Once over that I am fairly sure it is irrelevant whether or not they pay. On canals and upper reached of rivers such as the Thames the vessel has to comply with Category D requirements - i.e. where the wave height is (I believe) <1.5m.

 

I think that even in your case they might have been rather generous - there is something about a boat which has been approved as a passenger vessel when is moved from one location to another as required by the operator, but I can't remember it all exactly.

 

I don't know that the OP is considering that many though.

 

Apparently it was to do with the definition of a passenger because we would all be taking turns to operate (play) we could all be a crew, one day we had twenty two on board. I always find the MCA very reluctant to offer an opinion when it comes to Canal boats, they understand the big stuff no problem, I always get the impression we are beneath them.

 

Ken

[Pentargon]

Having read the thread? from top to bottom I find OPs question is not answered after 28 posts. Nothing new there. So I'll try to do it. http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/final_brochure-2.pdf refers but does not apply to boats defined in Annex2 as "pleasure vessels". Since OP owns his boat and all intended passengers are 'friends' (and he is not charging them), there is NO LIMIT AT LAW. Pentargon is 36' long and has been 'gauged' with twelve men standing on both gunnels and on the aft deck. However, common sense tells me there is no way those twelve could have stayed on for a trip as they would not have room to move. I've been on a commercial 'day boat' which [had] almost no interior and carried 14 on an excellent day out. If OP were hiring such a day boat it would be a 'pleasure vessel' as soon as he took charge but I understand clearly he is using his own boat. I'd suggest any more than 6 or 7 would be pushing the bounds of comfort and safety.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Pentargon

[colin stone]

There is a rule of thumb for stability of vessels.

 

5.2.3 Angle of heel due to passenger crowding

For every ship of Classes II and II(A), a calculation shall be made showing the angle of heel which would occur with two thirds of the passengers distributed on one side of the ship and one third on the other side. For the purpose of this calculation the ship should be assumed to be in the worst anticipated service condition. The passengers should each be represented by a weight of 75 kg and should be assumed to be congregated at 4 persons per m2 on the uppermost deck or decks to which they have access, and at an assumed centre of gravity of 760 mm above the deck. The resulting angle of heel should not exceed 7 degrees. A statement of the result of this calculation is to be included in stability information book, i.e. the ‘Special Notes on Stability’ reference Appendix 7 of these Instructions.

 

 

Adding people/75kg sacks on each side of the boat as above, the heel should not exceed 7 degrees. So hang a plumb line from the mast and for the length of the plumb line work out the horizontal distance for 7 degree angle. Place marker. Load boat and when plumb bob reaches mark, that is it. If you think they will all be on one side, then don't do the 1/3 2/3 split.

[nb Innisfree]

Instead couldn't you add sacks/people on one side only until 7 deg is reached then treble the number to get the same result?

[howardang]

There is a rule of thumb for stability of vessels.

 

5.2.3 Angle of heel due to passenger crowding

For every ship of Classes II and II(A), a calculation shall be made showing the angle of heel which would occur with two thirds of the passengers distributed on one side of the ship and one third on the other side. For the purpose of this calculation the ship should be assumed to be in the worst anticipated service condition. The passengers should each be represented by a weight of 75 kg and should be assumed to be congregated at 4 persons per m2 on the uppermost deck or decks to which they have access, and at an assumed centre of gravity of 760 mm above the deck. The resulting angle of heel should not exceed 7 degrees. A statement of the result of this calculation is to be included in stability information book, i.e. the ‘Special Notes on Stability’ reference Appendix 7 of these Instructions.

 

 

Adding people/75kg sacks on each side of the boat as above, the heel should not exceed 7 degrees. So hang a plumb line from the mast and for the length of the plumb line work out the horizontal distance for 7 degree angle. Place marker. Load boat and when plumb bob reaches mark, that is it. If you think they will all be on one side, then don't do the 1/3 2/3 split.

And if you look at the appropriate section of the code which I mentioned in this thread, what you have mentioned is described in detail there.

 

Howard

[Keeping Up]

On a narrow boat, 7 degrees is a ridiculously small amount of heel; some narrow boats will heel that much in a strong wind. On the other hand the clause about the "uppermost deck or decks to which they have access" is interesting, for if they are denied access to the gunwales and roof (by verbal instruction perhaps?) then the only consideration is the angle of heel when they are on the floor which, being below the roll centre of the boat, should allow for a very large number of passengers.

 

Mine seemed quite stable with 24 people in the lounge - admittedly we were moored but we weren't on the mud - and there was no way that one-third of them could have moved to one side anyway.

[bizzard]

On a narrow boat, 7 degrees is a ridiculously small amount of heel; some narrow boats will heel that much in a strong wind. On the other hand the clause about the "uppermost deck or decks to which they have access" is interesting, for if they are denied access to the gunwales and roof (by verbal instruction perhaps?) then the only consideration is the angle of heel when they are on the floor which, being below the roll centre of the boat, should allow for a very large number of passengers.

 

Mine seemed quite stable with 24 people in the lounge - admittedly we were moored but we weren't on the mud - and there was no way that one-third of them could have moved to one side anyway.

Precisely 20 tons of corpses. My boat is perfectly stable with 20 or so people onboard, inside and none fooling about on the roof.

[bizzard]

On an ex P&O 30' clinker lifeboat which i once owned there was an original engraved plate saying ''Designed to save 86 lives''. In the sea!!!

[ditchcrawler]

On a narrow boat, 7 degrees is a ridiculously small amount of heel; some narrow boats will heel that much in a strong wind. On the other hand the clause about the "uppermost deck or decks to which they have access" is interesting, for if they are denied access to the gunwales and roof (by verbal instruction perhaps?) then the only consideration is the angle of heel when they are on the floor which, being below the roll centre of the boat, should allow for a very large number of passengers.

 

Mine seemed quite stable with 24 people in the lounge - admittedly we were moored but we weren't on the mud - and there was no way that one-third of them could have moved to one side anyway.

It didn't feel rediculously small to me when we got roped in to help check a new day boat that Fox''s had just launched, sitting in the cabin watching the iPod clnometer as more people filed into the cabin after being weighed on the dock side. I was very pleased to make my excuses and leave I can tell you.

[Arthur Marshall]

I've a forty footer - I think it depends on several factors. I've been worried about the balance when I had two very overweight people insisting on sitting on the same side of the boat and they got insulted when asked to balance each other out, and I've had seven or eight normal sized people on an office trip comfortably! Depends too on cabin size compared to where they can sit or stand on the gunnels.

[luctor et emergo]

The answer is 42

[Ange]

The only time the question has arisen for us is when we crossed the Ribble Link. The literature from BW states that the number of passengers is limited to the number of berths which seemed ludicrous because that means we can only take two passengers on Iona, which is 57 foot. We did abide by this because we were very mindful of how insurance companies jump on anything to get out of paying a claim.

 

Being a 1990 boat there's no advisory plate. We've carried ten quite comfortably (including ourselves), though it does cause a bit of a list because all the seating's on one side of the boat!

[howardang]

On an ex P&O 30' clinker lifeboat which i once owned there was an original engraved plate saying ''Designed to save 86 lives''. In the sea!!!

Thats a bit "oranges and apples". Your lifeboat may have been only 30 ft long but the beam was much greater. Than a narrowboat. Additionally, your lifeboat had a greater freeboard and when operational had a number of internal buoyancy tanks. Finally, survivors would be crammed in close together in the bottom of the boat - almost like your earler description of a boatload of bodies.

 

One other thing. The would almost certainly be no hull penetration, which would help to prevent premature downflooding.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[bizzard]

Thats a bit "oranges and apples". Your lifeboat may have been only 30 ft long but the beam was much greater. Than a narrowboat. Additionally, your lifeboat had a greater freeboard and when operational had a number of internal buoyancy tanks. Finally, survivors would be crammed in close together in the bottom of the boat - almost like your earler description of a boatload of bodies.

 

One other thing. The would almost certainly be no hull penetration, which would help to prevent premature downflooding.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

Of course your right i was just using the lifeboat as an example, mind you with 86 people aboard its freeboard would probably be less than most narrowboats.

[mayalld]

Having read the thread? from top to bottom I find OPs question is not answered after 28 posts. Nothing new there. So I'll try to do it. http://www.dft.gov.u..._brochure-2.pdf refers but does not apply to boats defined in Annex2 as "pleasure vessels". Since OP owns his boat and all intended passengers are 'friends' (and he is not charging them), there is NO LIMIT AT LAW.

 

UTTER RUBBISH

 

The document that you reference deals with commercial operation of vessels up to 12 passengers.

 

No regulation applies to vessels carrying up to 12 passengers (this document is a code of practice for commercial vessels, but NOT statutory).

 

For all vessels with more than 12 passengers, a boatmaster is a legal requirement.

[Tam & Di]

Of course your right i was just using the lifeboat as an example, mind you with 86 people aboard its freeboard would probably be less than most narrowboats.

 

As a variant on this, on inland waters in France a liferaft is valid for twice the approved number for use at sea, with the proviso that it has cords around the edge for people to hold onto.

[KenK]

Having looked through the MCA website and not being able to find a definate answer, I phoned the MCA and asked.

 

There are no actual regulations however they say if you carry more than twelve passengers you are at risk if anything goes wrong. A Boatmaster is only required if the operation is commercial i.e. a trip boat. The main problem would be insurance, any vessel built after the CE regulations came in has a plate which states the maximum number of people allowed if you cary more than that number then the insurance probably would be invalid. Even if the vessel is older they are designed in the main to cary only a few people normally less than twelve therefore carrying twenty for example would not be sensible.

 

All the above is advice from the MCA there are no actual regulations applying to private inland waterways craft, the regulations apply to commercial vessels.

 

Ken

[bizzard]

As a variant on this, on inland waters in France a liferaft is valid for twice the approved number for use at sea, with the proviso that it has cords around the edge for people to hold onto.

Indeed and a lot of the 86 people that the lifeboat saves would also be clinging to the cords or gunnels.

[howardang]

Having looked through the MCA website and not being able to find a definate answer, I phoned the MCA and asked.

 

There are no actual regulations however they say if you carry more than twelve passengers you are at risk if anything goes wrong. A Boatmaster is only required if the operation is commercial i.e. a trip boat. The main problem would be insurance, any vessel built after the CE regulations came in has a plate which states the maximum number of people allowed if you cary more than that number then the insurance probably would be invalid. Even if the vessel is older they are designed in the main to cary only a few people normally less than twelve therefore carrying twenty for example would not be sensible.

 

All the above is advice from the MCA there are no actual regulations applying to private inland waterways craft, the regulations apply to commercial vessels.

 

Ken

That s what I said in post 15. The question was asked about hw stability can e calculated and the code was mentioned as a guideline which might help. I also suggested that if the was a serious accident I am sure that the first thing the MCA would do is to assess the stability using similar procedures so although it doesn't apply to private vessels it could be a help in making a judgement as raised by the OP.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[whitty1]

I want to take some work colleagues 45 minutes down the canal for a short trip and back again in our new boat, no locks. For an average 40 foot narrow- boat what would you think is a maximum reasonable number of adults? can overloading a boat make it unstable enough to sink!

Our 40-footer says no more than 6 people on the brass plate. We have had 7 aboard but 4 were children and 2 were keeping them inside! (plus steerer obv.)

[bizzard]

Its the front well's drain scuppers that you need to check firstly before overloading your boat as some are very close to the waterline and it would not take too much overload weight before they dip below waterline level especially if your water tanks full too, and water comes rushing in, and if you can't can't get the front door shut, the weight removed and it baled out before it flows over the step, Glug,glug! Glug!!Glug, glug glug!!! its down to Davey Jones.

[luctor et emergo]

BEWARE THE KRAKEN