What is a safe number of passengers?

[GinJer]

I want to take some work colleagues 45 minutes down the canal for a short trip and back again in our new boat, no locks. For an average 40 foot narrow- boat what would you think is a maximum reasonable number of adults? can overloading a boat make it unstable enough to sink!

[Leo No2]

I want to take some work colleagues 45 minutes down the canal for a short trip and back again in our new boat, no locks. For an average 40 foot narrow- boat what would you think is a maximum reasonable number of adults? can overloading a boat make it unstable enough to sink!

 

There may be a CE plate which shows the maximum no of passengers - mine at 60' is limited to 8. I believe CE plates are a fairly recent addition but not sure when they came in.

[bottle]

Look on your CE plate, usually oval in shape and brass coloured sometimes black with brass highlights.

 

My 60' says 6 x 75 Kgs. When underway.

 

You could put more on-board but insurance may well be invalidated if you exceed the design number.

 

Edit: Kathryn beat me.

Edited September 4, 2012 by bottle

[Ray]

My understanding is that the number of people on a boat must not exceed twelve without the skipper holding the relevant category of Boatmaster's Licence and the boat being effectively treated as a trip boat and meeting all the relevant legislation relating thereto.

 

The maximum number may be even lower for other reasons, as has already been indicated.

[Leo No2]

Look on your CE plate, usually oval in shape and brass coloured sometimes black with brass highlights.

 

My 60' says 6 x 75 Kgs. When underway.

 

You could put more on-board but insurance may well be invalidated if you exceed the design number.

 

Edit: Kathryn beat me.

 

Keith

 

 

It's interesting that two boats of the same length should be different (mine's a trad) - I was limited to 5 on the Queen's Diamond Jubilee for some reason.

[bottle]

Yes I noticed that, mine to is a trad, it may well be because I have a 7Kw diesel generator on board, unless you have to.

[Tam & Di]

Keith

 

 

It's interesting that two boats of the same length should be different (mine's a trad) - I was limited to 5 on the Queen's Diamond Jubilee for some reason.

 

On the tidal Thames?

 

It depends too where you put them - up on the roof and you will have a very unstable boat (and might have trouble seeing, even without the odd glass or two )

[Leo No2]

On the tidal Thames?

 

It depends too where you put them - up on the roof and you will have a very unstable boat (and might have trouble seeing, even without the odd glass or two )

 

Hi Tam

 

Well it was not really tidal at the time (with the barrier closed) but there was no argument about numbers - it was max 5 / min 2 or don't participate. We did it with 3.

 

Keith - No I don't have a diesel generator - that's probably why then.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Leo No2

[OldGoat]

Hi Tam

 

Well it was not really tidal at the time (with the barrier closed) but there was no argument about numbers - it was max 5 / min 2 or don't participate. We did it with 3.

 

Keith - No I don't have a diesel generator - that's probably why then.

 

 

The organisers were extra careful about safety and "overcrowding", some cruisers and Little Ship boats were grumbling on the ybw forum about bein restricted to three. It was probably about having to rescue numbers if any one boat got into trouble.

 

Remember like the Olympics, nobody had any real experience in running such an event before.

[Grace and Favour]

OP - I would suggest that you do it with as few peeps as practical . . (max 4 or 5 including crew)

 

Just consider, for a moment, what would happen to the boat's attitude if all 4 or 5 stood on the same gunwale simultaneously - -

 

I suggest that it would be best if you offer your work colleagues 'personal' trips, rather than fit an 'office-load' in all at once

 

Most important - - enjoy!

[Guest wanted]

We have had 11 on our fifty footer (cruiser stern) we went up two locks to the Fox in Hanwell on Charlotte's Birthday. I know the route and locks well and it isn't far but the feeling of responsibility was almost too much. Almost.... We got through the locks pretty quick and even though they were all singing shanties it was good fun.

 

 

What would happen to your job prospects if you sink?

[Dr Bradley]

ever seen how many they put on those little day hire boats, must be a dozen in 25ft. Does that mean 2 doazen in 50 feet?

[magpie patrick]

The number on the CE plate is what I will call the Bulgarian Visa Question. I call it that because 20 odd years ago I was in Istanbul and wanted a visa to go to Bulgaria, I asked for a one week visa, I got a one week visa. It was only later that I realised of I'd asked for a 3 month visa I'd have got one.

 

Thus identical boats (other than the number of berths) can end up with different limitations, because they give you what you ask for, and nothing more.

 

Even if you have no limits on a CE plate, please don't go over twelve passengers. That is the limit set to not need all the official paperwork, go over telve, and you are into boatmster and MCA approval territory.

[alan_fincher]

OP - I would suggest that you do it with as few peeps as practical . . (max 4 or 5 including crew)

 

Just consider, for a moment, what would happen to the boat's attitude if all 4 or 5 stood on the same gunwale simultaneously - -

But as has been said, day boats of no more than 30 foot or so are freely allowed to carry up to 12 people, and regularly do. (More quite often, once they are around the corner and the boatyard can't see the extra bodies being added!....)

 

They must surely be less stable than the average 40 or 50 foot leisure narrow boat, but I have never heard of one overturning because half the crew all reembarked on the same side at the same time.

 

Yes, half a dozen people on the same gunwale can introduce a strong list, and therefore the possibility of slipping off as a result, but I think few narrowboats would risk anything more serious happening as a consequence.

 

Neither of my boats are new enough to carry any kind of makers plate or certification, and when I have looked, I have found nothing specifically about it in the insurance.

 

We certainly had a dozen on 40 foot Sickle at the last Braunston show, and being round chined that can produce some quite dramatic tilting if not evenly distributed. But I'd certainly have no fears about actual stability, although things may fall off shelves and out of cupboards!

 

Even if you have no limits on a CE plate, please don't go over twelve passengers. That is the limit set to not need all the official paperwork, go over telve, and you are into boatmster and MCA approval territory.

But the twelve does not include crew, I think - it is just pure passengers. Being slightly tongue in cheek, but if you are armed with a windlass, I think you can be counted as crew.

 

We certainly had approaching 20 in Koukouvagia's "Owl" at one banter - though that was static only - no attempt to actually boat it. Still hard to see how a boat that can easily carry 20 tonnes would have too much trouble carrying 20 people, though.

[howardang]

The MCA Inland Waters Small Passenger Boat Code clearly lays out the minimum stability criteria which applies to small vessel on non-tidal inland waters. It is relatively easy to carry out the simplified inclining experiment which is detailed in the code - it takes less than an hour - and would give a clear indication of maximum number of passengers (up to a max of 12) plus crew which could be carried.

 

This code is used for trip boats both for fare paying and for charity boats on inland waterways for a maximum of 12 passengers, not private vessels, but the code makes it clear that the passenger numbers should be reduced if the minimu stability criteria cannot be met. In my opinion, you would be in a sticky situation as a private owner in the event of a capsize,for example, where the boat can be proved to be overloaded, using these guidelines. I think you would be in an even stickier position if you charged your "passengers" a fare.

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/final_brochure-2.pdf

 

Cheers,

 

Howard

[alan_fincher]

In my opinion, you would be in a sticky situation as a private owner in the event of a capsize,for example, where the boat can be proved to be overloaded, using these guidelines.

I'm not trying to play down safety considerations, but when do we reckon the last time aws that an otherwise in good order (steel) leisure narrow boat sank on a canal due solely to too many people on board ?

 

I think you would really have to work at it, unless the boat was of an inherently unstable design.

 

Even a dozen adults I think will typically weigh less than a ton (or tonne). That isn't a huge amount versus the sheer amount of low down mass in a typical steel narrow boat, even if loaded on very unevenly.

 

So whats the evidence for too many people ever actually "rolling" one ?

[howardang]

I'm not trying to play down safety considerations, but when do we reckon the last time aws that an otherwise in good order (steel) leisure narrow boat sank on a canal due solely to too many people on board ?

 

I think you would really have to work at it, unless the boat was of an inherently unstable design.

 

Even a dozen adults I think will typically weigh less than a ton (or tonne). That isn't a huge amount versus the sheer amount of low down mass in a typical steel narrow boat, even if loaded on very unevenly.

 

So whats the evidence for too many people ever actually "rolling" one ?

That isn't the point. The point is that the MCA have got stability criteria in place which act as a guideline for answering the question about stability raised in this thread earlier. These remove an element of guesswork.

 

Self evidently, minimum downflooding angles and indivual boat design can make a large difference in deciding how a boat will remain safe at large angles of heel and I am sure we have all seen from time to time a perfectly normal boat heeling dramatically when more than one or two people are on the roof. Small day boats are a case in point.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[Leo No2]

I think the other issue to consider is that at a lock with say 8 to 12 people on board it is the management of those people (probably but not necessarily novices). I can see a cilling being a probability or a gate being lifted unless there is just one person in charge, everyone has been well briefed and the person in charge can concentrate on the process in hand.

[Pykebird]

I "helped" when a friendhad to do a heel test on his hire boats, required by the MCA. Although we only us bags of coal and all 3 boats were tied to the side, the results were quite scary!

In fact one day boat was down sized to only carrying 10 passengers instead of 12 after this test, to be within the safety margin.

From what I understand, there is very little balast in a day boat, hence no one is "supposed" to sit on the roof or front. But even when I have done handovers and got peple to sign to say they understand and agree its amazing what you see them get up a mile up the canal!

Obviously a larger boat will be slightly different, but make sure people are not hanging off the sides or stand in the way of whoever is steering!If at all worried, do several trips and stay safe, Have fun

[alan_fincher]

That isn't the point. The point is that the MCA have got stability criteria in place which act as a guideline for answering the question about stability raised in this thread earlier. These remove an element of guesswork.

 

Self evidently, minimum downflooding angles and indivual boat design can make a large difference in deciding how a boat will remain safe at large angles of heel and I am sure we have all seen from time to time a perfectly normal boat heeling dramatically when more than one or two people are on the roof. Small day boats are a case in point.

Well there is kind of a point there, isn't there.....

 

Whilst a high degree of tilt can be alarming, there are not exactly a heap of documented cases where it has resulted in a tragedy, I think.

 

(Note I'm talking steel narrow boats, clearly there have been far greater dangers and mishaps with gross overloading of (say) small GRP cruisers.).

 

If it really is inherently dangerous to have 12 people on a short steel narrow boat, then why is it freely allowed for most day boats to carry that number, and why has some further restriction not been put in place.

 

Note I am not condoning the outlandish behaviours of many day boaters - I don't actually like seeing them come towards me with a load of drunks actually trying to see how much they can make them roll, or whether they can tip someone off who is standing on the roof. But the reality is, even treated thus, they don't sink, even if a large group of people appears to be doing their best to try and make it happen.

 

The point about managing people on board is, in a way, the more relevant one to me. I'd have no qualms about loading large numbers of experienced boaters on our boats, and nothing untoward being likely to happen. But when we have (say) taken 4 friends out for a "taster" that have had no previous experience, I can honestly say that is the absolute maximum number I would wish to be keeping an eye on, if they are going to have a go at lock work. In fact 4 completely inexperienced is hard work, even if accompanied by two very experienced owners.

[bizzard]

I think the other issue to consider is that at a lock with say 8 to 12 people on board it is the management of those people (probably but not necessarily novices). I can see a cilling being a probability or a gate being lifted unless there is just one person in charge, everyone has been well briefed and the person in charge can concentrate on the process in hand.

Agree. Its absolutely fatal to have half a dozen self appointed Captains on a boat.

[bizzard]

You could easily get 20 ton of people on a narrow boat if they were corpses laid flat and stacked neatly.

I've had 18 to 21 on my boat on a few occasions and towing an old working flat with another 20 odd sitting in deck chairs out on picnics and to pubs.

I do not allow anyone on the roof though,i'm strict about that, no matter how much they complain about it, mentions of being like a Northern line tube train in the rush hour in the cabin,''keep the centre of gravity low''. I recommend the fitting down the centre of your boats ceiling a row of those lovely old underground train flexible dangling hanging straps for folk to hang onto. They always fascinated me as a kid.

We often sailed 15'10'' Wayfarer sailing dinghies four up and sometimes six in light winds.

[Leo No2]

I have helped with stability tests on a trip boat (Surrey and Hampshire Canal Society boat John Pinkerton). 67' x 8'6"

 

To start with we were allowed to get soldiers from the nearby Pirbright Guards Depot (50 - max number of passengers) to run from one side to the other. That was allowed for a number of years (and great fun it was) but the last one was done with 'wheelie bins' filled with water - such hard work on a very cold winter's day - each time the test was undertaken the boat healed approximately 1.5 to 2 inches down on one side. Yes a narrow (6'10") boat would heal more but I think it bears out that the management of the people on board is far more important than the stability (once it has been proved the boat is stable of course) provided you don't exceed the maximum number of people the boat is 'authorised' to carry.

[KenK]

I have helped with stability tests on a trip boat (Surrey and Hampshire Canal Society boat John Pinkerton). 67' x 8'6"

 

To start with we were allowed to get soldiers from the nearby Pirbright Guards Depot (50 - max number of passengers) to run from one side to the other. That was allowed for a number of years (and great fun it was) but the last one was done with 'wheelie bins' filled with water - such hard work on a very cold winter's day - each time the test was undertaken the boat healed approximately 1.5 to 2 inches down on one side. Yes a narrow (6'10") boat would heal more but I think it bears out that the management of the people on board is far more important than the stability (once it has been proved the boat is stable of course) provided you don't exceed the maximum number of people the boat is 'authorised' to carry.

 

We have done the heel test for our only narrow trip boat, with the wheelie bins and it's suprising how little it does heel, the extra weight puts her lower in the water which I guess makes the difference.

MCA rules only apply to vessels carrying fare paying passengers, not to private boats.

 

Ken

[Tam & Di]

We have done the heel test for our only narrow trip boat, with the wheelie bins and it's suprising how little it does heel, the extra weight puts her lower in the water which I guess makes the difference.

MCA rules only apply to vessels carrying fare paying passengers, not to private boats.

 

Ken

 

I've not got the reference to hand, but I think you will find that any vessel carrying more than 12 passengers is defined as a passenger boat and must therefore comply. Payment or non-payment is not a consideration.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Tam & Di