CRT proposing to change Islington Visitor Moorings to residential moorings

[KevMc]

When I go for a cruise I am too busy enjoying the scenery, wildlife and good conversation to be bothered counting how many boats I pass don't have a licence, or noting just where they are moored so I can check up next time I am passing....

 

... maybe I should pay more attention as I go around cos obviously I am missing one of the most important aspects of boating

[carlt]

... maybe I should pay more attention as I go around cos obviously I am missing one of the most important aspects of boating

I owe you a greenie as I appear to have run out.

 

There must be for to boating than seething about what other boats are "getting away with".

[Higgs]

Imagine I'm on a visitor mooring. It's full. A friend of mine comes past and says that they would love to stay there but there's no room. I say "hang on a mo - I was going to move shortly anyway - you can have my spot". Anything wrong with that?

 

The once in a blue moon scenario would be lucky for your friend, as it would be lucky for me. I don't think coincidences should be frowned upon. Difficult to imagine more than one friend having the same good luck more than once.

 

'My spot' ? Just a turn of phrase?

Edited August 21, 2012 by Higgs

[Cosmic]

The once in a blue moon senaria would be lucky for your friend, as it would be lucky for me. I don't think coincidences should be frowned upon. Difficult to imagine more than one friend having the same good luck more than once.

 

'My spot' ? Just a turn of phrase?

The point I'm making here is that the only difference between the two examples is whether it was arranged in advance or not. This one you say is just lucky, the first one you said was indefensible.

 

I agree it's unlikely to happen regularly purely by chance. If a small group of people hog the best spots by doing this then, as I said, it's selfish and harms everybody. But the problem is how to stop it without penalising people who are just lucky occasionally.

 

(and by "my spot", I just meant "the place where I'm moored", not claiming squatter's rights )

[Higgs]

But the problem is how to stop it without penalising people who are just lucky occasionally.

 

(and by "my spot", I just meant "the place where I'm moored", not claiming squatter's rights )

 

Can't defend C&RT. If they can't do the job, they're letting the vast majority down. If the people that should be in control can't control - we will be continually going on, until the cows come home. And round and round in circles.

 

I think those that can read and understand basic good manners will not have any problems. Those that can't understand will just drag standards down and be continually practising their regardless behaviour. Until good practice is regulated by the authorities, a certain amount of friction will exist within the boating community. Leisurely freedoms threatened.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Higgs

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

I presume you mean that a) the moorings are permanently occupied by people who stay more than 14 days at a time and b: this is not reasonable in the circumstances. What evidence do you have of this? I suspect that you have none (particularly in relation to the second criterion), in which case your use of the term "continuous moorer" is simply an expression of unjustified prejudice against CCers. However, if you do have evidence of that, would it not be reasonable of the CaRT to enforce the law so that the moorings could be used by genuine visitors rather than making moorings residential so that they can't?

No I don't and I didn't suggest they stayed more than 14 days.

I have no prejudice against continual cruisers , far from it.

The point I made was staying 14 days, moving on and staying 14 days but only move around 3 different mornings. That not continus cruising it's continus mooring without a home mooring.

 

Imagine I'm on a visitor mooring. It's full. A friend of mine comes past and says that they would love to stay there but there's no room. I say "hang on a mo - I was going to move shortly anyway - you can have my spot". Anything wrong with that?

 

 

No, but ringing up and saying I will be leaving at 10 am next Monday is different.

[Cosmic]

No I don't and I didn't suggest they stayed more than 14 days.

I have no prejudice against continual cruisers , far from it.

The point I made was staying 14 days, moving on and staying 14 days but only move around 3 different mornings. That not continus cruising it's continus mooring without a home mooring.

How do you know they did?

No, but ringing up and saying I will be leaving at 10 am next Monday is different.

How do you know they didn't?

[ditchcrawler]

How do you know they did?

 

How do you know they didn't?

I can play this game.

How do you know they don't.?

[Cosmic]

I can play this game.

How do you know they don't.?

No.

 

In the first case, the point I'm making is that it's rude to use a derogatory term like continuous moorer (or CM), particularly in relation to a whole group of people, unless you know that it is accurate - hence the first question.

 

In the second, I was demonstrating that it's impossible to tell the difference between two people whose cruising patterns happen to coincide occasionally and two who have deliberately arranged it to happen, which means it's impossible to legislate against it happening now and then, even if you think it's wrong (hence the second question). (I was also distinguishing between this happening once in a while and it happening all the time).

 

And to you too

[jenlyn]

Via London Boaters-

 

''It appears that CRT have plans - not yet published - to convert the Angel visitor moorings to residential moorings.

It doesn't look like planning permission has yet been applied for.

 

This is apparently a response to the ongoing complaints of (a v small number) of residents of Noel Road about noise / smoke etc.

Obviously residential moorings at this location will also bring in the £££ for CRT.

 

Friends of Regent's canal are writing to the leader of Islington Council to make objections at these plans - they want to see these kept as visitor moorings. This is useful as they are quite influential on local planning issues.''

 

My opinion - I'm all for more residential moorings, but this is a visitor mooring and in central London there are barely any. I think it needs to remain as it is. If this happens, what next? Will central London consist of £10k p.a moorings and nowhere for visitors to moor?

 

What do we think?

It seems Damian of the CRT boaters Facebook page joined this forum today, perhaps he could come up with some answers.

[ditchcrawler]

No.

 

In the first case, the point I'm making is that it's rude to use a derogatory term like continuous moorer (or CM), particularly in relation to a whole group of people, unless you know that it is accurate - hence the first question.

 

 

And to you too

But I don't think I did. I have no problem with CC's who follow the CCguidlines. They are different people who go from mooring to mooring in a small area

My comment about CM 's stand because it was aimed at CM's and not CC's just as if I made a comment about boaters who moor on locklandings, it would be aimed at those that do it, not all boaters.

You seam to think I am aiming it at CC's and I am not.

[PiRSqwared]

It seems Damian of the CRT boaters Facebook page joined this forum today, perhaps he could come up with some answers.

Perhaps he could get the Lee dredged before considering hairbrained mooring proposals. Got grounded about 10 feet away from the bank between Stonebridge and Tottenham today. Earlier today I came across a stranded sail boat below Enfield lock at a bend. Literally half the channel on the outside of the bend is unnavigable due to silting. The stranded boat was on the inside of the bend btw.

Edited August 21, 2012 by PiRSqwared

[Higgs]

In the second, I was demonstrating that it's impossible to tell the difference between two people whose cruising patterns happen to coincide occasionally and two who have deliberately arranged it to happen, which means it's impossible to legislate against it happening now and then, even if you think it's wrong (hence the second question). (I was also distinguishing between this happening once in a while and it happening all the time).

 

Staffing problems would probably preclude the use of subtle solutions, trying to work out who is or isn't taking the P. More likely the speed bump solution, that restricts all, in problem areas.

[Maffi]

The reason I described that interpretation as daft is that it implies that I should give up a space that I know is wanted by my friend, before they arrive, specifically to prevent them from having it.

 

You don't seem to understand the system. You moor at a specific place for a fixed amount of time. When that time has elapsed you move that's the end of it. Your connection to it has finished.

 

It then belongs to the next person to arrive with a properly licensed boat, who stays for the fixed period of time or less as the case maybe, then he moves and someone else moves into the space. The whole object is that anybody can use the space not just those who you chose.

 

Colluding to prevent free use of visitors moorings by all boaters is tantamount to theft and just in case you didn't hear that or for that matter any of Londons other 'continuous cruisers'. I said THEFT. Manipulating a public facility for your own use is no different to MPs fiddling expenses or people fiddling taxes or people coming to your boat and stealing your property. Whether you look at it legally or morally it is wrong.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Maffi

[Cosmic]

But I don't think I did. I have no problem with CC's who follow the CCguidlines. They are different people who go from mooring to mooring in a small area

My comment about CM 's stand because it was aimed at CM's and not CC's just as if I made a comment about boaters who moor on locklandings, it would be aimed at those that do it, not all boaters.

You seam to think I am aiming it at CC's and I am not.

If there are people doing this (I think I've said that it sometimes seems that there are but I don't know) then that's selfish and harms everyone. But if it happens in a place like Islington, then that's down to a failure of CaRT to enforce it's own rules. What I object to is people labelling CCers as CMers when what they mean is simply "this mooring is very busy - it's not fair!"

[ditchcrawler]

If there are people doing this (I think I've said that it sometimes seems that there are but I don't know) then that's selfish and harms everyone. But if it happens in a place like Islington, then that's down to a failure of CaRT to enforce it's own rules. What I object to is people labelling CCers as CMers when what they mean is simply "this mooring is very busy - it's not fair!"

And I repeat for the last time, because you don't want to hear it. I AM NOT, I have nothing against CC's I do object to CM's just like I don't object to boaters but I do object to those that moor on lock moorings who happen to be boaters.

 

I object to drink drivers and those who drive without insurance but I do not blame the police who fail,to catch them all.

[Lady Muck]

Perhaps he could get the Lee dredged before considering hairbrained mooring proposals. Got grounded about 10 feet away from the bank between Stonebridge and Tottenham today. Earlier today I came across a stranded sail boat below Enfield lock at a bend. Literally half the channel on the outside of the bend is unnavigable due to silting. The stranded boat was on the inside of the bend btw.

Both Stonebridge and the pound above Enfield dewater if anyone leaves a gate open. Stonebridge is at least a foot down at the moment.

[Cosmic]

And I repeat for the last time, because you don't want to hear it. I AM NOT, I have nothing against CC's I do object to CM's just like I don't object to boaters but I do object to those that moor on lock moorings who happen to be boaters.

I heard you the first time I'm sure you don't have anything against CCers, but there are people who will see other people using terms like CM to refer to us and think it's okay. (BTW, I think Onionbargee posted here about how people do manage to get moorings there, so I'm still not sure there's any organised collusion going on, even if it looks that way).

 

Perhaps he could get the Lee dredged before considering hairbrained mooring proposals. Got grounded about 10 feet away from the bank between Stonebridge and Tottenham today. Earlier today I came across a stranded sail boat below Enfield lock at a bend. Literally half the channel on the outside of the bend is unnavigable due to silting. The stranded boat was on the inside of the bend btw.

It amazes me that this doesn't happen more often. There's a big sandbank that takes up about half the width of the river, just by the pipe bridge. There used to be a plastic milk crate sticking out of the water last year. At least that used to serve as a warning.

[14skipper]

Hmm visions of "floating cones " to reserve my "parking spot" till l get back

 

14skipper

[fudd]

If I'm about to leave a busy mooring and I know that someone else is about to arrive, it would seem rude to move away so that the space is likely to be taken by the time they arrive. However, if a group of people "keep in touch with each other" as you say, so that they can permanently reserve spaces at all the best moorings, then that is selfish and harms everyone else.

 

 

Surely the spaces should be on a first come first serve basis. What you suggest is completely unfair. You are absolutely condoning that particular behaviour.

[sueb]

Visitor moorings should be for visitors not liveaboards, which would stop me using them

[mayalld]

Visitor moorings should be for visitors not liveaboards, which would stop me using them

 

Visitor moorings should be for visitors, not (semi-) permanent residents, and not handed on from one occupier to the next.

 

It is irrelevant whether the visitor lives on the boat or not.

 

It is irrelevant whether the visitor has a home mooring or not.

[KevMc]

Visitor moorings should be for visitors, not (semi-) permanent residents, and not handed on from one occupier to the next.

 

It is irrelevant whether the visitor lives on the boat or not.

 

It is irrelevant whether the visitor has a home mooring or not.

 

Perhaps if there was a fixed time when ALL vistor moorings had to be unoccupied (a bit like those one hour no parking zones used to stop commuters parking near stations) - say from 10 until 2 every Wednesday - then passing places on would be harder. It might mean a bit of congestion around the London canals on those days but could it work ?

[mayalld]

I heard you the first time I'm sure you don't have anything against CCers, but there are people who will see other people using terms like CM to refer to us and think it's okay.

 

The problem is that you claim that people use terms like CMer to refer to you.

 

Let me be VERY clear on this point;

 

I do not EVER use the term CMer to refer to CCers in general.

 

I refer to people who licence their boats as CCers and engage in bona fide navigation as "CCers".

 

I refer to people who licence their boats as CCers and do not engage in bona fide navigation as "CMers"

 

If it is your belief that when I talk about CMers, I am talking about you then either you haven't understood my meaning or you aren't engaged in bona fide navigation and the label fits.

[Leonie]

You will not be preventing a friend from having a visitors mooring. But, prior arrangement to reserve the mooring will deprive passing boats the chance to moor there, because they were not a friend.

 

Reserving visitors moorings is not a defendable position.

 

I'd have to agree. Frankly, visitor moorings are and should be taken on a first come, first served basis.

 

Imagine I'm on a visitor mooring. It's full. A friend of mine comes past and says that they would love to stay there but there's no room. I say "hang on a mo - I was going to move shortly anyway - you can have my spot". Anything wrong with that?

 

 

I don't understand this. I'm not saying it's wrong, just it doesn't seem to add up. Inside the exclusion zone, there are no boats except those that are paying for a mooring. Outside the zone, the "14 day rule" has been suspended for most people. So where are people getting this evidence from?

 

No, but that's very different than waiting for your friend to arrive in order that a stranger can't have the mooring in preference to him/her.