Volunteers

[Guest]

Isn't there a key difference here though Dave -

 

The volunteers you refer to appear to have just turned up to work boats through to raise to money for an all be it worthy cause. If they sank your boat in the lock who would your re-dress be to - the canal society - probably not.

 

If a BW volunteer lockie (under the auspices of and trained by BW) sinks your boat you have cause to go back to BW for re-dress.

 

The key thing is the official 'status' of the lockies concerned.

 

Just to add though - if I witnessed a volunteer locky of any type about to do something patently stupid that was likely to put me, my boat or crew at risk I would intervene......

Edited May 14, 2012 by MJG

[mayalld]

No wonder some of us sometimes have trouble getting through to BW on important matters when the line is being tied up with such petty phone calls.

 

It was a letter, so wouldn't have tied the phone lines up, and as a result the society was warned that on future occasions they must ensure that boaters were ASKED whether they wanted assistance.

[carlt]

It was a letter, so wouldn't have tied the phone lines up, and as a result the society was warned that on future occasions they must ensure that boaters were ASKED whether they wanted assistance.

Sill not BW volunteers though, Dave, so your example lacks any relevance.

 

If they sank your boat in the lock who would your re-dress be to - the canal society - probably not.

 

One wonders what would have happened if the 15 year old child in charge had sank the boat in the lock?

[Guest]

One wonders what would have happened if the 15 year old child in charge had sank the boat in the lock?

 

Well I would think it would fall back to the adult supervising the trip wouldn't it? and whatever official capacity they were there in which to my mind would ultimately put it back to the Scouting Association in Dave's example....

[carlt]

Well I would think it would fall back to the adult supervising the trip wouldn't it? and whatever official capacity they were there in which to my mind would ultimately put it back to the Scouting Association in Dave's example....

Exactly.

 

My point being that Dave should applaud this new initiative because, unlike the fundraising volunteer in his example, the C&RT volunteers will have had training, a clear understanding of their responsibilities and a national organisation backing them, in the event of an incident....just like a scout leader, hopefully (though I don't know the extent of their training as it is not as well publicised as C&RT's)

[alan_fincher]

Are the volunteers doing anything useful? We managed to work locks for years without them

 

Its all very nice having volunteer lock keepers but do we need them, we can do the locks, but who is going to repair the infrastructure and do the dredging we need volunteers?

 

In that case why don't they do something useful?

 

Saves me getting off the boat but I still can't see the point. Most holiday makers want to work locks.

From what I have observed, although maybe some of these volunteer lock keepers may actually sometimes wind paddles or push gates to speed things along, that is not what I think their primary role is intended to be.

 

I think the intention is far more to try and ensure smooth and efficient operation of the locks, particularly where there are known water shortage problems, which means trying to sort out the often difficult tasks of "one up, one down" or (for broad locks, mostly) sharing.

 

Certainly that is what we have observed at the GU lock flights where there are already limited opening hours because of the drought - I don't think there in an intention that you stay on the boat, and they work the locks, (though I can't speak for everywhere).

 

OK, at places like The Bratch, Foxton, Watford, etc, some of the keeper do do a bit of "hands on", but these are notorious bottle necks at busy times, and I think they are just trying to achieve a better throughput than if we are all left alone.

 

Whilst Sue is confident she could tackle any flight or staircase on her own, you only have to see some of the crews we have met in the Birmingham area muddling their way through their first locks. maybe a day or more after they were sent off from (say) Alvechurch, without a clue. Whilst some of the volunteer lock keepers may not be stunning when they start, (and we have certainly witnessed that), hopefully many will quickly get good enough that they add value, (and of course many already do!).

 

[i haven't laboured through Dave's thoughts on this topic, I'm afraid - he always seems to encounter problems that most of us never do, and I do wonder if this stems from a more confrontational style of boating than most of us normally adopt. Sorry Dave, but you do seem to make a rod for your own back sometimes!.

[cereal tiller]

Isn't there a key difference here though Dave -

 

The volunteers you refer to appear to have just turned up to work boats through to raise to money for an all be it worthy cause. If they sank your boat in the lock who would your re-dress be to - the canal society - probably not.

 

If a BW volunteer lockie (under the auspices of and trained by BW) sinks your boat you have cause to go back to BW for re-dress.

 

The key thing is the official 'status' of the lockies concerned.

 

Just to add though - if I witnessed a volunteer locky of any type about to do something patently stupid that was likely to put me, my boat or crew at risk I would intervene......

Not quite clear as to why people are turning up to work boats through locks 'for a worthy cause',if those members of a canal society are raising funds,why are they operating locks?

 

Is this the same ethos as fund raisers offering to pack your shopping at the supermarket,in the knowledge that the shopper will feel obliged to make a donation?

[Guest]

Is this the same ethos as fund raisers offering to pack your shopping at the supermarket,in the knowledge that the shopper will feel obliged to make a donation?

 

That is my understanding yes - though I personally have never encountered such a group doing this so can't say with any degree of certainty.

 

I have encountered a windlass wielding 'volunteer locky' a number of times at Dallow Lock on the T&M who was always absolutely plastered no matter what time of the day it was, he used to scare the hell out me teetering about on the gates and on the lock edge!!!

 

- not sure what motivated him as he never asked or pestered for money, he just seemed to enjoy himself.

[alan_fincher]

Not quite clear as to why people are turning up to work boats through locks 'for a worthy cause',if those members of a canal society are raising funds,why are they operating locks?

 

Is this the same ethos as fund raisers offering to pack your shopping at the supermarket,in the knowledge that the shopper will feel obliged to make a donation?

Yes, I think it is.

 

I have to admit that when the local IWA branch worked us up Stoke Hammond Three Locks as part of their fund-raising, whilst I was happy to have handed them a fiver, I would have made it a tenner if they had stayed out of it, and let us work the locks ourselves!

 

Must have taken well over twice as long as it ever normally takes us for those three locks!

[Doorman]

I really do not understand the problem some people have with volunteers (provided they are not putting someone out of work) I would have been more than happy for a volunteer to lock me up Wigan Flight last week. If you do not want a volunteer to lock you through then just politely explain to them you would rather do it yourself. The more people we manage to take an interest in the Canal System the more chance we have of surviving as a charity.

On Saturday when I was going through Blackburn a gentleman on the towpath asked if he could open one of the gates naturally I said no problem, he then told me it was his dream to one day own a boat, it was a good reminder for me on how lucky I am to own a boat. He continued to help through the next few locks and was later helped by 2 young lads they all said they had a great few hours working the locks. Come on people we desperately need non boaters to take an interest in the canals PLEASE ENCOURAGE not DISCOURAGE.

 

Totally agree with your sentiment.

 

My initial thoughts were similar to some mentioned on here, regarding regular BW/Cart staff losing their jobs with the advent of volunteers. If that were to happen, then it would be morally wrong and simple exploitation of people's enthusiasm to get involved with the canals.

 

Let's give this idea a chance to work and then make our judgements. It will take time for the volunteers to become experienced, the same as it does for boaters to learn the ropes. It doesn't happen overnight. Once these people have learnt the mechanics of lock keeping and are able to impart their knowledge to others, surely this will make for a safer waterway network.

 

Whilst ensuring that the beer doesn't go off at The Shroppie Fly, we witness all manner of misdemeanors committed not only by hire boaters, but private boaters negotiating the locks too! If they're humble enough to accept a bit of well meaning advice from a volunteer, then that's got to be a positive thing.

 

Also, as previously mentioned, their task is not isolated to operating locks, it encompasses keeping the canal side tidy and in our locality, introducing boaters to the available services in the village. It's more like community service without first committing a crime!

 

Mike

 

ETA If they can teach boaters from all quarters to slow down past moored boats, then their work will not be in vain. We are currently being battered by the (now usual) array of ignoramuses whizzing past our boat and yes, we are moored up properly!

Edited May 14, 2012 by Doorman

[mayalld]

So do you have that written on a badge that you wear or are you happy for each individual parent to look into your personal life to assure them of your fitness to volunteer?

 

Many would say that putting a 15 year old in charge of a boat full of kids without the appropriate training is irresponsible, especially when you allow that child to then argue with an adult trying to carry out a task.

 

I can see the thread now, that you would start, if some kid had tried to tell you what to do.

 

Once again you set yourself above others and arrogantly state that you are more fit to volunteer than others are, despite the Scout movement's somewhat dodgy reputation for recruiting suitable volunteers.

 

I think that you will find that, whilst not 100% perfect, the Scout Association has an excellent record on recruiting suitable volunteers. There are, it has to be said a number of organisations around that offer a similar programme of activities to the Scout Association, and may even call themselves Scouts, that are not actually part of the Scout Association, and which tend to attract undesireables (often the very people that the Scout Association has turned away).

 

Yes, I am very happy for each individual parent to look into my personal life, and assure themselves of my fitness to be in charge of their child. Some choose not to do so, others will actually want to.

 

Part of what we do in Scouting is teach young people about responsibility, and young people learn about responsibility by being given responsibility. I don't consider giving a 15 year old charge of a boat (the other kids were all ashore) with one leader (me) able to observe from the shore and another leader immediately available to take over if necessary in any way irresponsible.

 

The child on the tiller did NOT argue with an adult trying to carry out a task. Rather he didn't give the nod to the lad who was by the paddles waiting for that nod. Mrs Bossy then decided to wade in to issue her instructions. Neither did the child by the paddle argue with her. He simply waited for the nod from the person he knew should give the nod, and Mrs Bossy started to operate the lock without any confirmation from anybody that it was OK to do so.

 

The thread if some kid had tried to tell me what to do? You want that thread?

 

OK, here goes;

 

It was on Heartbreak Hill, last year.

 

As always, I try to strike a balance between staying away from the lock whilst another boat is in there, and being slagged off for not helping, and wading in forcing my assistance on people. I will come and stand close to the paddles available to assist if wanted, but not with windlass in hand to impose that assistance.

 

We arrived at the lock (one of the singles), to find it against us with both ends closed. I could see a boat just leaving the lock below, so I opened the gates for him to enter, and when he was in the lock I closed the gates again. His own lock crew hadn't arrived from the lock below by this time, so I asked whether he wanted me to help, or whether he would rather wait for his own crew.

 

The steerer asked if I would wind the paddles up slowly, so I went to the top paddles and opened them to his signal. The lock crew arrived, and in idle converstaion, I remarked that his lad handled the boat well. Dad agreed. Son was 11 years old.

 

I have no problems with taking instructions from a child where it is appropriate.

[carlt]

There is a stark difference between chugging lock volunteers and official C&RT volunteers.

 

A chugger taking charge of a lock would amount to someone doing a charity car washing event trying to tell mhow to drive correctly.

 

A trained C&RT volunteer, with the responsibility to ensure the safe and smooth running of the lock, would be more akin to a special constable.

 

I think that you will find that, whilst not 100% perfect, the Scout Association has an excellent record on recruiting suitable volunteers.<snip the irrelevant>

 

That may be the opinion of a Scout leader but you don't expect to have the monopoly on generalising, after reading a few horror stories, surely?

 

As I said, Dave, your example of an officious chugger is irrelevant, when discussing trained volunteers with the authority of C&RT behind them.

Edited May 14, 2012 by carlt

[cereal tiller]

Neither do I, why assume that all volunteers are idiots, do you assume all hireboaters are idiots too? The only volunteer lock keeper I know lives aboard a trading boat and has plenty of boating experience.

 

Don't go on the Thames Dave, you don't have any choice about being locked through by volunteers, they won't let you do it!

There is a choice LM,i had a differing opinion as to how my boat lines should be deployed in a thames lock.

 

The full time EA lockeeper went into his hut and we worked the lock ourselves.

 

On another occasion, a volunteer instructed my son to use a bow, rather than a quarter, line,the volunteer claimed that he had more experience.

 

My son,who has lived on a boat since he was 6 months old, informed him that the skipper(me) was in charge of the vessel.

[mayalld]

There is a stark difference between chugging lock volunteers and official C&RT volunteers.

 

A chugger taking charge of a lock would amount to someone doing a charity car washing event trying to tell mhow to drive correctly.

 

A trained C&RT volunteer, with the responsibility to ensure the safe and smooth running of the lock, would be more akin to a special constable.

 

Thank you for your tacit acceptance that the people I encountered had no business interfering!

 

My concern with volunteer lock keepers at locations that have never had full time lockies is this;

 

Clearly, where there is a need for a lockie, there already is one (and that may in future be a trained volunteer). However what appears to be happening is that at locations that have never had a need for lockies, volunteers are being let loose without any clear indication of what they are there to do, or whether they are fully trained.

 

It rather looks like "we want somebody to litter pick and mow the grass, but we would never get volunteers for that job, so we will let the litter pickers play with the toys to keep them sweet"

 

That may be the opinion of a Scout leader but you don't expect to have the monopoly on generalising, after reading a few horror stories, surely?

 

Indeed not. I will naturally point out that most of the horror stories don't relate to Scout Association leaders.

 

As I said, Dave, your example of an officious chugger is irrelevant, when discussing trained volunteers with the authority of C&RT behind them.

 

It may not be a perfect comparison, but neither is it entirely irrelevant.

 

How many of the new volunteers will be fully trained in order to meet an operational need for lockies, and how many will be litter pickers allowed to operate the locks as a treat.

[carlt]

Thank you for your tacit acceptance that the people I encountered had no business interfering!

As I wasn't there and I have only one untrained volunteer's word against another I cannot accept either's story.

 

If what you say is true then I still believe that an untrained scout leader allowing an untrained child to take charge of a boat and other children could be seen as irresponsible.

 

 

 

Clearly, where there is a need for a lockie, there already is one (and that may in future be a trained volunteer). However what appears to be happening is that at locations that have never had a need for lockies, volunteers are being let loose without any clear indication of what they are there to do, or whether they are fully trained.

 

It rather looks like "we want somebody to litter pick and mow the grass, but we would never get volunteers for that job, so we will let the litter pickers play with the toys to keep them sweet"

I think that, as the only observation you have made was about a completely irrelevant incident, you are unqualified to make that accusation.

 

It is just your opinion with no supporting evidence and, as you have done your best to convince us of the incompetency of volunteers, you have, as a volunteer, done the credibility of your opinion no good whatsoever.

 

 

How many of the new volunteers will be fully trained in order to meet an operational need for lockies, and how many will be litter pickers allowed to operate the locks as a treat.

I don't know...neither do you but, in my experience, volunteers working for such organisations tend to be trained for the tasks that they are asked to do and your assumption to the contrary is no less of a conspiracy theory than AlanH's contributions, of which you are so critical.

Edited May 14, 2012 by carlt

[sueb]

Quite so. Some inexperienced boaters are glad of the help.. We encountered a group of Belgians on a Rose narrow boat from Stretton today at Hilmorton. It was the first lock they had encountered. Initially they tried to fill the lock using the gate paddles at the wrong end and were pretty much clueless. My wife offered some advice and guidance and they were very grateful to receive it.

 

 

Not so, of course you can ask volenteers to work a rota. I can think of lots of examples with volenteer teams were that is done. I am a volenteer signalman on a heritage railway it wouldn't be much good for the service if we or the loco crews or any of the other operational roles just turned up when we felt like it.

There have been volunteers at Hilmorton when we have been there. Both wearing life jackets and dojng nothing except working the locks.

[carlt]

There have been volunteers at Hilmorton when we have been there. Both wearing life jackets and dojng nothing except working the locks.

No bad thing as I have encountered many boaters confused because of the double locks there.

[mayalld]

As I wasn't there and I have only one untrained volunteer's word against another I cannot accept either's story.

 

If what you say is true then I still believe that an untrained scout leader allowing an untrained child to take charge of a boat and other children could be seen as irresponsible.

 

You repeatedly say "untrained".

 

I was not untrained.

 

I had completed all the general mandatory Scout Leader training, and in order to gain authorisation to take scouts away on a boat had completed the mandatory training that was specified for that activity (Certificate in Community Boat Management).

[jenlyn]

I am grateful for any help at locks, mind you, it's a pain being informed by the member of public helping you that you are pushing on the wrong side of the gate, when you have spent 10 mins giving them the benefit of your vast boating skills :-$

[RLWP]

I am grateful for any help at locks, mind you, it's a pain being informed by the member of public helping you that you are pushing on the wrong side of the gate, when you have spent 10 mins giving them the benefit of your vast boating skills :-$

 

 

Been there, done that

 

Richard

[Laurie Booth]

 

Been there, done that

 

Richard

I thought I was the only one to have done that

[chazzy]

 

Been there, done that

 

Richard

 

 

and me

[Rebotco]

As a boater, where I would find volunteers most valuable, would be at swing and lift bridges, rather than locks.

Hardly any training would be necessary and very little risk attached. Nor would there be much issue as to who is "in charge".

In my usual cruising area though, I do tend to encounter many more bridges than locks.

[matty40s]

The lockies at Watford used to do a sterling job, pleasant, helpful, kept the locks and surrounds looking beautiful and only assisted you if you wanted them to.

They also used to sell milk/bread/eggs and ice creams. This was stopped due to food hygiene regulations!!

 

Last year however, it was volunteer locky time when I was heading North. I entered the bottom of the staircase flight and gave the thumbs up to my crew to start the fill. The locky was shouting and waving and wouldn't let them open the paddles.

I couldb't hear what he was saying as the Gardner was chugging along nicely. He was waving and pointing to the front of the boat. Eventually he walked back to my end and said I had to move back as the water from the leaky lock gate was coming over the front end (I have a full cratch cover so it was only going off the gas locker and then over the sides). He then realised that I couldn't go back any more, being 70ft, so I waved my crew on to carry on with the paddles.

[Doorman]

and me

 

And there I was, thinking that I was the only plonker to do such a thing!