underused canals?

[kevinl]

Quote from Sunday's Daily Mail

 

"The company has also suggested that the pipeline may not connect to reservoirs but link instead to England’s underused canal network."

 

United Utilities plan to transfer water from the north to the south by building a pipeline next to the proposed high speed train line and using "the underused canal network" to transfer water. Anybody know where the underused bit is and more seriously what would be the effect of canals having flowing water? How would it work with locks? Is this really a seriously viable proposition or just some know-nothing doing some blue sky, think outside the envelope bulls**tting?

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106547/Rail-pipe-bring-water-South--2-6billion-plan-build-alongside-HS2-route.html#ixzz1nb8Cn1n5

[OldGoldy]

Quote from Sunday's Daily Mail

 

"The company has also suggested that the pipeline may not connect to reservoirs but link instead to England’s underused canal network."

 

United Utilities plan to transfer water from the north to the south by building a pipeline next to the proposed high speed train line and using "the underused canal network" to transfer water. Anybody know where the underused bit is and more seriously what would be the effect of canals having flowing water? How would it work with locks? Is this really a seriously viable proposition or just some know-nothing doing some blue sky, think outside the envelope bulls**tting?

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106547/Rail-pipe-bring-water-South--2-6billion-plan-build-alongside-HS2-route.html#ixzz1nb8Cn1n5

 

Not a new idea:-

 

"Waterways framework may lead to increased water transferring

 

26 February 1999, source edie newsroom

 

The UK Government has proposed an increase in the amount of water transferred using British Waterways' 2000 mile network of canals and waterways as part of a new framework for the network announced on 18 February 1999. Announcing the package of measures, UK Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott said that the national transfer of water on a wider scale than present is technically and environmentally feasible in many parts of British Waterways' network"

 

13 years to the day! When you have no new news to report, dig up something old and possibly controversial and watch the response.

[RLWP]

And again...

 

The problem with this brilliant idea is that there is not enough head of water to get the required flow. If you raised the top of the North Stratford by two metres, you may be getting nearer what you want

 

Richard

[Guest wanted]

Can someone give me a shout when they start as I may need to tie a couple of extra ropes on....

[magpie patrick]

Quote from Sunday's Daily Mail

 

"The company has also suggested that the pipeline may not connect to reservoirs but link instead to England’s underused canal network."

 

United Utilities plan to transfer water from the north to the south by building a pipeline next to the proposed high speed train line and using "the underused canal network" to transfer water. Anybody know where the underused bit is and more seriously what would be the effect of canals having flowing water? How would it work with locks? Is this really a seriously viable proposition or just some know-nothing doing some blue sky, think outside the envelope bulls**tting?

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106547/Rail-pipe-bring-water-South--2-6billion-plan-build-alongside-HS2-route.html#ixzz1nb8Cn1n5

 

It is not a new idea and there are several common sense reasons why it could work. The "underused" refers, I think, to the use for water transfer not to the use by boats.

 

The biggest factors in favour of using the canals is that they are already there and modifying them for dual purpose navigation and water transfer could be done for a fraction of the cost of large pipes (and beleive me, they would be large) and that it is much easier to push water down an open channel than through a pipe because there is so much less friction. The downside is that losses are greater and there are some environmental issues as water from the north passes would pass through all sorts of different aquatic environments on it's way south presumably carrying features of every eco-system along with it.

 

As for flow, when I've worked on these things no one has been suggesting Llangollen type flows and even there one can hardly say the Llangollen is unpopular because of this issue! In the end as well, money talks, A funding shortfall for the waterways of, what £50 million per annum would be chicken feed compared to the cost of managing a national water grid of pipes.

 

When was the last time the Llangollen had restrictions due to water shortage?

 

And again...

 

The problem with this brilliant idea is that there is not enough head of water to get the required flow. If you raised the top of the North Stratford by two metres, you may be getting nearer what you want

 

Richard

 

Long pound give the biggest problems but the head is nowhere near that Richard! If the stop locks at Kings Norton and Gas Street were reinstated so the head could be broken up it would help, and for really long levels extra stop locks has been mooted

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Long pound give the biggest problems but the head is nowhere near that Richard! If the stop locks at Kings Norton and Gas Street were reinstated so the head could be broken up it would help, and for really long levels extra stop locks has been mooted

 

So Severn-Trent got their calculations wrong?

 

Richard

[magpie patrick]

So Severn-Trent got their calculations wrong?

 

Richard

 

Probably, by about the same margin as Thames Water got theirs wrong when it suited them

[Chris Pink]

Not a new idea at all at all;

 

http://www.canalmuseum.org.uk/history/1950/index1950.htm

 

1942 saw the most ambitious waterway proposal ever in the UK. J F Pownall's proposed Grand Contour Canal was to be a lock-free ship canal on the 310ft (95 m) contour connecting most parts of England, and linked to the main river systems by boat lifts. The surface width of the canal was to be 100ft (30.8 m) and its depth 17ft (5.2 m). In addition to shipping, it was proposed to use it for water transfer. Sadly the proposal came to nothing.

[by'eck]

Grand Contour Canal springs to mind.

 

ETA - just beaten by Chris

Edited February 27, 2012 by richardhula

[Rebotco]

Contour Canal - But where would they get the extra water from to fill it up in the first place?

 

Say 2000 miles x 30ft x 17ft deep - about 500 MILLION cu.ft. They'd have to empty Scotland to find that!

[Chris Pink]

There's no shortage of water.

 

This is Britain after all. The problem is keeping hold of it.

[Rebotco]

There's no shortage of water.

 

This is Britain after all. The problem is keeping hold of it.

 

A bigger problem is getting it where it is needed.

[Chertsey]

And presumably getting it from the Lake District to Birmingham? The downhill bit is surely easy compared to that.

[Chris Pink]

A bigger problem is getting it where it is needed.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Contour_Canal

[Pluto]

Surely it would make more sense to move people out of the south east to the north. The whole infrastructure of the SE region is already under more pressure from the increasing population than is realistic, and they only way to improve quality of life for the poor b••••rs who live there is to reduce the population. There are a number of ways this could be achieved.

 

That said, I did give BW a copy of the Settle Canal plan of 1772 when the idea of water transport was last raised. The canal would have tapped into the Ribble watershed, and almost all the canal was at the same level as the L&LC summit. Not only could water have been moved southwards, but water shortages on the L&LC would have been avoided as it would have lengthened the summit by twelve miles, and the canal would open up a new area to tourism.

[journeyperson]

Surely it would make more sense to move people out of the south east to the north. The whole infrastructure of the SE region is already under more pressure from the increasing population than is realistic, and they only way to improve quality of life for the poor b••••rs who live there is to reduce the population. There are a number of ways this could be achieved.

 

That said, I did give BW a copy of the Settle Canal plan of 1772 when the idea of water transport was last raised. The canal would have tapped into the Ribble watershed, and almost all the canal was at the same level as the L&LC summit. Not only could water have been moved southwards, but water shortages on the L&LC would have been avoided as it would have lengthened the summit by twelve miles, and the canal would open up a new area to tourism.

 

Well I can't really agree with you there, we don't want the green belt cluttering up with new towns to house them all. By all means develop ways of transferring some of our water, but it should be metered .

[Grace and Favour]

Surely it would make more sense to move people out of the south east to the north. The whole infrastructure of the SE region is already under more pressure from the increasing population than is realistic, and they only way to improve quality of life for the poor b••••rs who live there is to reduce the population.

 

Nooo - - - leave the poor b****rs where they are . .

 

They wouldn't like the North - all those mushy peas, pease puddin' , faggots, pies and tripe, whippets, clogs, working men's clubs and dependence upon Lidl, Aldi and Poundstretcher, beer with head on it, distinct shortage of l*ger, and much wetter colder weather.

Honestly - it wouldn't be right for them!

[Rebotco]

Nooo - - - leave the poor b****rs where they are . .

 

They wouldn't like the North - all those mushy peas, pease puddin' , faggots, pies and tripe, whippets, clogs, working men's clubs and dependence upon Lidl, Aldi and Poundstretcher, beer with head on it, distinct shortage of l*ger, and much wetter colder weather.

Honestly - it wouldn't be right for them!

 

Well, you've convinced me!

[furnessvale]

And presumably getting it from the Lake District to Birmingham? The downhill bit is surely easy compared to that.

 

No need to go that far. It's rained all winter up the Peak and it's downhill all the way to Tamworth from here. A few strategic backpumps and you'd be on Tring summit before you knew what had hit you. Too late for this summer but once set up we could send a steady flow most winters instead of putting it over the spillways.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[matty40s]

No need to go that far. It's rained all winter up the Peak and it's downhill all the way to Tamworth from here. A few strategic backpumps and you'd be on Tring summit before you knew what had hit you. Too late for this summer but once set up we could send a steady flow most winters instead of putting it over the spillways.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

There has been water pouring over into the Trent from the Erewash bottom lock for weeks, in fact, since I first came on this stretch on the 10th December.

Theres surplus water not far from where its needed, I am sure it does not need a David Cameron announcement of a £47BN investment in a major infrastucture pipeline by the ConDem's.

You only need to get it from the Soar in Leicester to the top of the Leicester Summit, then it's downhill all the way to Milton Keynes and the Ouse valley.Get the pumps working from there and Tring Summit is next up.

[furnessvale]

I am sure it does not need a David Cameron announcement of a £47BN investment in a major infrastucture pipeline by the ConDem's.

 

It sometimes seems that everything we do in the UK has to have so many extra bells and whistles fitted.

 

The new High Speed Railway is a case in question. The French build a new line out in the country but, on approaching Paris, revert to the old line and finish up in the original terminal. We insist on a new tunnel from miles outside London to a new massive underground station at Euston. The cost of this extension runs into £billions which would have paid for the new line to reach Scotland, and probably Wales as well, before again reverting to the old line approaching Glasgow and Cardiff.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[CV32]

and now the biggest supplier wants to run a pipe next to the hs2 white elephant to pipe the water from the north to the south .... more crazy idea's !! it will be over budget, late and will no doubt cost us all more than it should.

[Morat]

I have no knowledge of the engineering required, but IF the canals can be made vital again without destroying their original purpose of carrying boats - surely that would be a good thing in the long run for funding?

[furnessvale]

I have no knowledge of the engineering required, but IF the canals can be made vital again without destroying their original purpose of carrying boats - surely that would be a good thing in the long run for funding?

 

I fully agree with you. I am a supporter of canals being used for water transfer. While the water is being transferred I will be able to boat along without water shortages or low pounds etc. They may even do some dredging to increase the water capacity. Still vastly cheaper than £2.6bn pipelines.

 

Bring it on!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Doorman]

And again...

 

The problem with this brilliant idea is that there is not enough head of water to get the required flow. If you raised the top of the North Stratford by two metres, you may be getting nearer what you want

 

Richard

 

I think the other problem is, that the likes of Boris Johnson who look at an atlas or map, see the compass bearing north, then believe that water will flow naturally from north to south, as if there was an imaginary head of water similar to the first and ground floor of a house!

 

If that notion sounds incredulous, then consider the many other half wit ideas that these academics have dreamed up in the past!