Leisure Mooring and living on board

[jimbo747]

Hi,

 

I'm sure this question has been asked before, and I'm equally sure somebody has answered it, but i am beggared if i can find it now i want to.

 

If it is not possible to find a residential mooring in an area, is getting a leisure mooring - say in a marina - but then spending 3-4 nights a week actually on the cut workable?

Twisting the rules a little i know.

 

Jimbo

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Most places will turn a blind eye to permanent liveaboards as long as you don't make a mess. 4 nights a week is not considered liveabord. bwb do not bother but councils like to charge tax

Edited January 20, 2012 by The Bagdad Boatman (waits)

[Starcoaster]

I think it would depend on the marina- some have a rule on how many nights a week you can stay on it.

But don't forget that it depends what kind of leisure mooring too- BW marina's (if you are in one of them) 'grade' leisure moorings and permitted usage depends on the grade- for instance a Grade 1 leisure mooring means you can spend unlimited time on it as long as you can provide a land address for contact (I am paraphrasing somewhat but that is the gist) and so would likely suit you fine without the need to move the boat any more than you wanted to at all.

I think only BW marinas are graded like this- otherwise it's down to the individual marina's policies. Some are a lot more lenient on how 'residential' you are than others, on the quiet of course!

 

A summary of the BW mooring grade terms-

 

http://www.bwml.co.uk/uploads/pdfs/BWML_Mooring_Types_Summary_Document.pdf

Edited January 20, 2012 by Starcoaster

[mrsmelly]

Hi,

 

I'm sure this question has been asked before, and I'm equally sure somebody has answered it, but i am beggared if i can find it now i want to.

 

If it is not possible to find a residential mooring in an area, is getting a leisure mooring - say in a marina - but then spending 3-4 nights a week actually on the cut workable?

Twisting the rules a little i know.

 

Jimbo

 

Just drop the totaly unecessary word " Residential " I have never been asked when taking a mooring how I use my boat. Dont stick your head above the parapet and it will not get shot off.

[sue1]

Hi,

 

I'm sure this question has been asked before, and I'm equally sure somebody has answered it, but i am beggared if i can find it now i want to.

 

If it is not possible to find a residential mooring in an area, is getting a leisure mooring - say in a marina - but then spending 3-4 nights a week actually on the cut workable?

Twisting the rules a little i know.

 

Jimbo

I1m glad someone asked this question, because this one is on my list as well, why are residatial mooring so hard to find, i`m surpised bw has not created any more

susan

[mrsmelly]

I1m glad someone asked this question, because this one is on my list as well, why are residatial mooring so hard to find, i`m surpised bw has not created any more

susan

 

Bw have created sveral recently, opposition is often from local nimby types. It doesnt matter anyway they are simply not needed.

[matty40s]

Hi,

 

I'm sure this question has been asked before, and I'm equally sure somebody has answered it, but i am beggared if i can find it now i want to.

 

If it is not possible to find a residential mooring in an area, is getting a leisure mooring - say in a marina - but then spending 3-4 nights a week actually on the cut workable?

Twisting the rules a little i know.

 

Jimbo

 

Jimbo, to answer your question......as others may have missed....but I will be more polite than Pentargon was on another thread...., it is probably OK, and within the rules.

A leisure mooring should be more unoccupied by the boat owner than occupied, i.e. your scenario of going out on the cut for 4 nights would meet that requirement.

 

Billing Aquadrome have a similar policy, only 11 months a year allowed, they shut officially for January. However, the boaters there make sure they get a minimum few(4) weeks out on the Nene, or up to the GU at some part of the year, and do not have to vacate the site in January.

Obviously there are some who leave for much longer cruises, holidays and breaks, but by doing the basic minimum, there are some that stay within the moorings agreements without worrying.

[Leni]

 

A leisure mooring should be more unoccupied by the boat owner than occupied,

 

Thanks to Jimbo for asking a question which has been bothering me, and to all those who have answered.

 

May I ask where one can find the a copy of the 'rules' which have been referred to? Particularly with regard to the length of time one may stay on a live-aboard at what is classed as a non-residential mooring?

 

My boat is currently at a fully paid up BW Winter Mooring. Is this considered to be a 'Leisure Mooring'? I have searched the 'Winter Mooring Agreement Terms and Conditions' and can see no indication in it of how long I am allowed to live on the boat. The paperwork does talk about 'Site Rules', but I have not seen these or been given a copy of them. Is it likely that the answer to my question would be in them? How do I find out what they are?

 

Thank you.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Leni

[mayalld]

I1m glad someone asked this question, because this one is on my list as well, why are residatial mooring so hard to find, i`m surpised bw has not created any more

susan

 

Because it isn't within their powers to do so.

 

Residential moorings need planning permission, and BW can't give that.

[alan_fincher]

Thanks to Jimbo for asking a question which has been bothering me, and to all those who have answered.

 

May I ask where one can find the a copy of the 'rules' which have been referred to? Particularly with regard to the length of time one may stay on a live-aboard at what is classed as a non-residential mooring?

 

My boat is currently at a fully paid up BW Winter Mooring. Is this considered to be a 'Leisure Mooring'? I have searched the 'Winter Mooring Agreement Terms and Conditions' and can see no indication in it of how long I am allowed to live on the boat. The paperwork does talk about 'Site Rules', but I have not seen these or been given a copy of them. Is it likely that the answer to my question would be in them? How do I find out what they are?

 

Thank you.

In your case I would say there are no worries at all, and you don't need to bother about "rules" in this area.

 

A major purpose, (perhaps almost the sole purpose?),of BW creating "winter moorings" is to recognise that some people normally on the move at other times of the year would prefer not to have to in the winter, and are happy to pay BW quite a substantial charge for a bit of towpath with (often) limited facilities.

 

I think it is more of less a "given" that the vast majority of those doing this are full time live-aboard, and that there is no restriction on being on board permanently.

 

The only people likely to cause grief might be NIMBY local residents, if you make excessive smoke or noise, but behave yourself, and BW will certainly leave you alone.

 

Do remember that normal cruising rules, (note not mooring rules) such as not running engines or generators between 20:00 and 08:00 still apply.

[Leni]

In your case I would say there are no worries at all, and you don't need to bother about "rules" in this area.

 

Thank you very much, Alan. That's a relief to know. (BTW, I see you are in Hertfordshire. I think we are in the same area as you, and yes, the charge is substantial and the facilities indeed limited!)

 

However, in answer to Susan's question about the limited availability of residential moorings, I found this: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/newsroom/all-press-releases/display/id/3177

 

And noted at the bottom of the article a link to this: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/British_Waterways_guidelines_for_residential_mooring_sites_May_2011.pdf

 

Looks very interesting reading, although I haven't ploughed my way through all of it yet!

 

Thanks again to all.

[dor]

Most marinas don't have any liveaboards But they do have several boats where the owners "spend a lot of time on their boats".

 

Residential use is a planning issue and most councils will not give it for more than maybe one boat for a caretaker. As has been said, avoid using the words liveaboard or residential and you should be ok in most marinas and BW online moorings. Bear in mind though that this will mean that you can't use the marina as a postal address.

[sue1]

Thank you very much, Alan. That's a relief to know. (BTW, I see you are in Hertfordshire. I think we are in the same area as you, and yes, the charge is substantial and the facilities indeed limited!)

 

However, in answer to Susan's question about the limited availability of residential moorings, I found this: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/newsroom/all-press-releases/display/id/3177

 

And noted at the bottom of the article a link to this: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/British_Waterways_guidelines_for_residential_mooring_sites_May_2011.pdf

 

Looks very interesting reading, although I haven't ploughed my way through all of it yet!

 

Thanks again to all.

Thanks for that link, just started to read it myself

Susan

[Athy]

Do remember that normal cruising rules, (note not mooring rules) such as not running engines or generators between 20:00 and 08:00 still apply.

 

Shurely shome mishtake here? Vice versa I think, Alan. I don't think there is a rule which says that if you start moving before eight in the morning you must pole or bow-haul your boat until it's time to start the engine.

[jelunga]

No , I think he is correct. Engines and generators not to be run between 2000 and 0800, except for the purpose of navigation.

 

I think it would depend on the marina- some have a rule on how many nights a week you can stay on it.

But don't forget that it depends what kind of leisure mooring too- BW marina's (if you are in one of them) 'grade' leisure moorings and permitted usage depends on the grade- for instance a Grade 1 leisure mooring means you can spend unlimited time on it as long as you can provide a land address for contact (I am paraphrasing somewhat but that is the gist) and so would likely suit you fine without the need to move the boat any more than you wanted to at all.

I think only BW marinas are graded like this- otherwise it's down to the individual marina's policies. Some are a lot more lenient on how 'residential' you are than others, on the quiet of course!

 

A summary of the BW mooring grade terms-

 

http://www.bwml.co.uk/uploads/pdfs/BWML_Mooring_Types_Summary_Document.pdf

Grade 1 leisures provide a mail box service like what we have.

[Athy]

No , I think he is correct. Engines and generators not to be run between 2000 and 0800, except for the purpose of navigation.

That's exactly what I said. If you're not navigating, you're most likely to be moored. So these are mooring, not cruising, rules.

[alan_fincher]

Shurely shome mishtake here? Vice versa I think, Alan. I don't think there is a rule which says that if you start moving before eight in the morning you must pole or bow-haul your boat until it's time to start the engine.

 

Oh for goodness sake !

 

What I mean is that it is BW bye-laws so applies to all boats, and has nothing to do with any mooring conditions. It is implicitly a condition of having a licence to have a boat on the waterways and to navigate it, not of any other mooring arrangement you may have signed up to.

 

You are wrong about not being able to start your engine up and move off at any time you like. There is no regulation that stops me doing that at 3:00 a.m. even if moored in the middle of a line of boats where all are enjoying their slumbers, (in just the same way that nothing says you cannot navigate right through the night anyway).

 

Obviously for the sake of peace and harmony with their fellow boaters most will restrict their behaviours to what they consider reasonable, but nobody has a right to expect not to hear a boat engine running in the night - just not to hear one running whilst the boat involved is tied up and is going nowhere.

 

Incidentally one of the changes I have observed when comparing boating in the 1970s to boating in the 21st century, is just how much earlier in the day many people get going. Back in the 70s, anyone starting up much before 9:00 tended to do so very cautiously, because it seemed to be generally accepted that you didn't. These days at some popular locations, many boats may have gone past you long before 8:00 a.m.

[Athy]

.

 

You are wrong about not being able to start your engine up and move off at any time you like. There is no regulation that stops me doing that at 3:00 a.m. even if moored in the middle of a line of boats where all are enjoying their slumbers, (in just the same way that nothing says you cannot navigate right through the night anyway).

 

No, I was right, because that's exactly what I said.

I am surprised that many years ago people used to set off later in the morning; we often read that in the days of working boats the crews were up and away at sparrow's fart (an Orstraylian expression meaning "very early"), so it would have been logical for early pleasure boaters to do likewise, as this was the normal practice of the professional crews.

[carlt]

Residential moorings need planning permission, and BW can't give that.

Do they?

 

Could you show me the piece of legislation that says this.

 

I have yet to see any meaningful discussion about this case: Clicky that seems to imply that mooring a liveaboard boat against a piece of land does not constitute a change of use of that land, therefore residential planning permission is not required.

[Leni]

Do they?

 

Could you show me the piece of legislation that says this.

 

I have yet to see any meaningful discussion about this case: Clicky that seems to imply that mooring a liveaboard boat against a piece of land does not constitute a change of use of that land, therefore residential planning permission is not required.

In this link, which I attached to my post above in answer to Susan's question, there is reference to Local Planning Authorities considering planning applications for residential mooring sites, which would seem to indicate that planning permission is required.

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/British_Waterways_guidelines_for_residential_mooring_sites_May_2011.pdf

 

The link you post seems to me to be about Houseboats. As far as I am aware they are a different matter, aren't they? They are called 'boats' but have no way of moving from where they are situated on land at the side of a waterway, not boats which are moored on the waterway but can be moved from place to place. Don't different rules apply to them?

Edited January 22, 2012 by Leni

[GUMPY]

Do they?

 

Could you show me the piece of legislation that says this.

 

I have yet to see any meaningful discussion about this case: Clicky that seems to imply that mooring a liveaboard boat against a piece of land does not constitute a change of use of that land, therefore residential planning permission is not required.

 

Interesting CT hadnt seen that

If the second one goes the same way the implications are huge

Hopefully the council will loose the second appeal

[JDR]

A lot of marinas that allow "full and regular access" to boats (ie: defacto allowing liveaboards)do not have planning permission for residential use. I remember paying for 6 months mooring at a small boatyard and signing a declaration that I was not living aboard shortly before being asked if I wanted a mailbox. The problem occurs if the local council decides to become interested.

 

There was a case recently in Bedford where BWML were forced to apply for residential planning permission for berths at Priory Marina, even though BWML had leased the site from the council for many years. Residential moorers were also affected at Huntingdon

and a number of other yards and marinas on the Gt. Ouse. The end result was that boats on the same pontoons with exactly the ssame facilities were charged a lot more for the exactly the same service (or had to move on to pastures new where permission wasn't granted).

 

I suspect that whether a local authority decides to take an interest involves a balanced calculation between the potential council tax that would be collected versus the cost of the obligation to house people affected.

 

In my experience the best approach is not to raise the subject directly, talk to local boaters to find out the situation and never on pain of death use the words Liveaboard or Residential. Normally an owner of private moorings will make it explicitly clear if they don't want liveaboards on site. A designated residential mooring is a very rare thing.

Edited January 22, 2012 by JDR

[David Mack]

Interesting CT hadnt seen that

If the second one goes the same way the implications are huge

Hopefully the council will loose the second appeal

 

They did! Clicky

 

David