BW not allowing me to trade as a floating cafe in Hebden Bridge

[Pirate Jane]

Hi to all aboard,

 

I just want to start a discussion about how difficult I am finding it to get permission from British Waterways to start a tiny floating cafe/takeaway on my 55' narrow boat at Hebden Bridge. Basically for the last couple of months I have been seeking permission and last week was told that ...no I can't have a fixed mooring from which to trade from and ... no I can't have a home mooring and then pull up on the tow path at various places during the day and trade either. This basically means I cannot trade at all...ever!

 

First of all BW asked me to fill in a form with details of the business I would like to set up and they asked me to get in touch with the council about change of use of the tow path for trading purposes. The local planning department(although confused to start with) were really helpful, saying that to start with I should just trade along the tow path until I found that there was a place I needed to stop for longer and then asked me to get planning permission at that point. I thought that BW would back this up but they have said no!

 

Has anyone had the same experience as me? If so please can you let me know what you did to get permission to trade.

Any advice or info would be most appreciated.

Thank you

Jane

[fuzzyduck]

Have BW given you the grounds for refusal?

[DeanS]

Coal boats trade along the system.... I saw a book boat in Castlefield/Manchester trading arty books, ...I saw an art boat in Stratford upon Avon trading from the marina.......I've heard of people selling cheese from their boat.....so it does seem possible to trade under certain circumstances.....you probably just need to be flexible and find the loopholes?

[Pirate Jane]

Hi Fuzzy Duck

 

Thanks for your question. Am I allowed to post the email that they have sent me?

[grahoom]

Hi Fuzzy Duck

 

Thanks for your question. Am I allowed to post the email that they have sent me?

 

don't see why not.

[pearley]

There was a curry boat at Gargrave last year. Not a fixed mooring, they moved every a couple of days.

[DeanS]

There was a curry boat at Gargrave last year. Not a fixed mooring, they moved every a couple of days.

 

Probably needing to empty the loo more often than most.

[Pirate Jane]

Hi again and thanks for your interest, I really appreciate it. The replies from BW are as below but seem a little out of context because first of all I asked if I would be able to use a visitor mooring which they said no to. I then asked if I could stop at other places on the tow path (not visitors moorings) and they said no I needed a 'home mooring' so I got in touch and said I will have a 'home mooring' but I cannot trade from it as it is the other side of the canal and not on the tow path so I would have to cruise about in order to trade, BW said no again! What do you think?

 

BW says “Whilst you are looking for a permanent mooring to trade from you will be required to follow this guidance. As such you would not be able to trade from just one location i.e Hebden Bridge”.

 

BW says "Further to our telephone conversation this morning I can confirm that BW visitor moorings are not provided for extended periods of use by boaters needing to stay in the same place for work or other domestic reasons. As discussed the maximum amount of time you can stay is 14 days at any one time (or fewer if on short term visitor moorings, please check site signage), LPA guidance advises that if you trade at any one location for more than 28 days in the year, it will need planning permission

 

Hebden Bridge is a very popular visitor mooring site with limited spaces, at this time we are unable to provide one of these spaces for trading purposes. As discussed we would advise you to look at alternative locations, undertake further research on demand for your business and then contact Richard Delves and discuss if this location could be considered. Subject to BW approval and LPA planning permission, a trading mooring agreement could be entered into which would provide an official permanent location."

[Mac of Cygnet]

You may wish to contact the floating cafe at Slaithewaite which has been doing just this for several years: Moonraker

[fuzzyduck]

OK, so they're not saying you can't trade, but that you can only trade from the Hebden bridge vistors moorings for a max of 28 days a year.

 

Are there no other touristy trap type places say 10 miles away, that you can hop between (I don't know the Habden bridge area at all)

[dor]

BW says “Whilst you are looking for a permanent mooring to trade from you will be required to follow this guidance. As such you would not be able to trade from just one location i.e Hebden Bridge”.

 

BW says "Further to our telephone conversation this morning I can confirm that BW visitor moorings are not provided for extended periods of use by boaters needing to stay in the same place for work or other domestic reasons. As discussed the maximum amount of time you can stay is 14 days at any one time (or fewer if on short term visitor moorings, please check site signage), LPA guidance advises that if you trade at any one location for more than 28 days in the year, it will need planning permission

 

Hebden Bridge is a very popular visitor mooring site with limited spaces, at this time we are unable to provide one of these spaces for trading purposes. As discussed we would advise you to look at alternative locations, undertake further research on demand for your business and then contact Richard Delves and discuss if this location could be considered. Subject to BW approval and LPA planning permission, a trading mooring agreement could be entered into which would provide an official permanent location."

 

 

BW's response seems quite reasonable to me.

[deletedaccount]

There's a permanent floating cafe at bradford on avon bathampton wharf. Maybe contact them and see what they did?

Edited January 9, 2012 by deletedaccount

[Rebotco]

There's a permanent floating cafe at bradford on avon wharf. Maybe contact them and see what they did?

 

Can't recall seeing that. But there is one at Bathampton about 10 miles away outside "The George".

 

Brian

[mayalld]

Hi again and thanks for your interest, I really appreciate it. The replies from BW are as below but seem a little out of context because first of all I asked if I would be able to use a visitor mooring which they said no to. I then asked if I could stop at other places on the tow path (not visitors moorings) and they said no I needed a 'home mooring' so I got in touch and said I will have a 'home mooring' but I cannot trade from it as it is the other side of the canal and not on the tow path so I would have to cruise about in order to trade, BW said no again! What do you think?

 

BW says "Whilst you are looking for a permanent mooring to trade from you will be required to follow this guidance. As such you would not be able to trade from just one location i.e Hebden Bridge".

 

BW says "Further to our telephone conversation this morning I can confirm that BW visitor moorings are not provided for extended periods of use by boaters needing to stay in the same place for work or other domestic reasons. As discussed the maximum amount of time you can stay is 14 days at any one time (or fewer if on short term visitor moorings, please check site signage), LPA guidance advises that if you trade at any one location for more than 28 days in the year, it will need planning permission

 

Hebden Bridge is a very popular visitor mooring site with limited spaces, at this time we are unable to provide one of these spaces for trading purposes. As discussed we would advise you to look at alternative locations, undertake further research on demand for your business and then contact Richard Delves and discuss if this location could be considered. Subject to BW approval and LPA planning permission, a trading mooring agreement could be entered into which would provide an official permanent location."

 

OK, so what they are saying is that even if you moor on a permanent mooring, and move over onto the towpath to trade, you will be, to all intents and purposes, taking a visitor mooring out of use, because on each day that you trade, you are likely to be on that mooring beyond the time where boaters will be wanting to tie up for the evening.

 

It isn't relevant that it may be a different spot, or that it might be on the casual rather than formal moorings. The end result is that there will be a net reduction of 1 mooring in a congested location.

 

BW can't go round allowing a business to reduce the available mooring space without a very good reason.

 

So, they are offering you three options;

 

1) Trade from a number of different locations (including Hebden Bridge, but only for limited periods of time, and for a maximum of 28 days a year.

2) Trade from another location where there is less pressure on visitor moorings, and where they might grant you a towpath trading mooring.

3) Prove to them that you have a well researched business plan, which shows that there is real demand for your business in that locality, and that the overall leisure benefit that will result from a narrowboat cafe outweighs the loss of a visitor mooring.

 

Sorry, but "I fancy running a cafe, and thought that here would be good" isn't going to get BW to allow you to block a VM permanently.

 

Mac has mentioned Moonraker, but that is something of a special case, as when the cafe was first moored there, the canal was closed, with the locks at either end of the short pound it moors in still filled with rubble and capped with concrete, so its place is probably rather "grandfathers rights"

[Pirate Jane]

Dor - Please can you explain what you mean, perhaps I am missing the point? I am not wanting to take away a valuable visitor mooring, in fact did not ask for that in the first place. I initially asked BW if they had any moorings I could use to trade from and when they said no I asked if I had a home mooring then could I simply cruise along the hebden Bridge area on the Rochdale canal and trade at various places during the day.

 

Fuzzy Duck - I am a local person and would like to have a local business selling local produce so a 10 mile stretch wouldn't work for me. Also I would like to trade all year round (not just during tourist season) Here is what the local planning office said :

 

LPA -Having looked into this, it seems to me that if the enquirer is intending to cruise up and down the canal, stopping randomly for relatively short lengths of time to sell items, our view is likely to be that this would not amount to a change of use of the land and so would not need planning permission. If the enquirer wants confirmation from us about this, she will need to submit a Do I Need enquiry or an LDC (S192) application with the appropriate fee.

 

 

 

I have checked with BWB and they advise that the enquirer would still need a licence from them to operate in this way (and would need to explain this in the business plan that she would need to submit to BWB as part of her licence application). Their understanding of the position regarding planning permission is also as above.

 

 

 

It may be that she might start operating in this way, but over time may start stopping off at particular locations on a regular basis and/or for longer durations at each stop, and if this starts happening she may reach the point where we consider that a change of use of the land has occurred and so would need planning permission at that stage. (This situation is similar to, for example, ice-cream vans stopping randomly in the street to sell ice-creams/drinks etc (which doesn’t require pp), but if they stop regularly at a particular location for long periods (such as a roadside lay-by) then a change of use of the land would occur).

 

Hi Pirate Jane

 

From reading the email you've posted from BW, it sounds like it's a simple case of they don't have an available mooring as yet. I also wonder if you've given them enough information as they've asked you to carry on researching to see if there's a demand for your business. This is strange advice considering BW aren't business advisors, however it doesn't appear that they have said an outright no, they have asked you to do more work and it sounds like they are asking you to be patient in case a mooring becomes available.

How long have you been researching and thinking up the idea of a floating cafe? Is there another similiar business already operating in that area?

[Graham Davis]

Isn't there a floating cafe at Braunston?

 

One point to Pirate Jane:

Surely if you are moored on one of the visitors moorings you are stopping a potential customer mooring there?

[RLWP]

Jane, have you looked into what this means for your boat license and insurance?

 

Richard

[greywolf]

In Gas street basin they were trying to sell trading births but i do not know if it ever got off the ground.There is a boat selling coffee etc there already.

[mayalld]

Dor - Please can you explain what you mean, perhaps I am missing the point? I am not wanting to take away a valuable visitor mooring, in fact did not ask for that in the first place. I initially asked BW if they had any moorings I could use to trade from and when they said no I asked if I had a home mooring then could I simply cruise along the hebden Bridge area on the Rochdale canal and trade at various places during the day.

 

Fuzzy Duck - I am a local person and would like to have a local business selling local produce so a 10 mile stretch wouldn't work for me. Also I would like to trade all year round (not just during tourist season) Here is what the local planning office said :

 

 

 

You might not want to take away a valuable visitor mooring, but the actual effect of you trading from the towpath each day will inevitably be that as people start to moor up in time for their evening meal, you would still be in situ, blocking the mooring.

 

In all probablity, you would see a situation, where you packed up each evening, moving over to your permanent mooring after some people had passed through without finding a mooring, and that the empty spot would remain unoccupied for the night.

 

Your wish to run a particular business doesn't trump the need to make moorings available for visitors to Hebden Bridge, and it really falls to you to PROVE that your business will bring benefits to the locality, and enhance the leisure potential of the canal.

 

Have you shared your business plan with them? Does it show that your business will bring more visitors to the canal? If you expect to attract more people to the canal, how will they arrive, and if by car, where will they park?

[Pirate Jane]

Heh thanks to you all for reading my post and coming up with ideas and info

 

So many replies so here is a bit more info:

I have got a business plan and submitted it to BW. (Prior to this I have already had a business which was a success so realise that I have to put in the ground work) I have discussed the idea with the council, waterscape, tourist board. I have talked to people who have a boat hire business in the area (Bronte Boats)and they are supportive I have written to everyone who is also doing this kind of thing and some have replied to offer help. I also am a member of the boat club in our local area and have many friends who live on boats in the area. Everyone is very keen for my business to happen. This isn't just a random idea, I have been wanting to do it for a long time and have a lot of support for it. As well as providing drinks and snacks to tourists in the summer ( thus encouraging people to use the canal walk )I am wanting to provide a "dish of the day" at affordable prices for the boating community all year round. The visitor moorings are for 24 hours only so I would not be using them and if I was mooring up anywhere at all I would always be gone by the time they needed to moor up for the night. I don't want to inconvenience anyone, I want to pay my trading license as well as my mooring fees and also rates as soon as the council approved the change of use of the tow path. Finally for 9 months a year the visitors moorings are not well used, in fact people live there for months at a time! (Not saying I blame them as there are not enough visitors coming here to use them.) Please keep your comments coming, I really appreciate it.

 

You might not want to take away a valuable visitor mooring, but the actual effect of you trading from the towpath each day will inevitably be that as people start to moor up in time for their evening meal, you would still be in situ, blocking the mooring.

 

In all probablity, you would see a situation, where you packed up each evening, moving over to your permanent mooring after some people had passed through without finding a mooring, and that the empty spot would remain unoccupied for the night.

 

Your wish to run a particular business doesn't trump the need to make moorings available for visitors to Hebden Bridge, and it really falls to you to PROVE that your business will bring benefits to the locality, and enhance the leisure potential of the canal.

 

Have you shared your business plan with them? Does it show that your business will bring more visitors to the canal? If you expect to attract more people to the canal, how will they arrive, and if by car, where will they park?

[Chris Pink]

Can't recall seeing that. But there is one at Bathampton about 10 miles away outside "The George".

 

Brian

 

It is alleged, though certainly not by me, that this was allowed through a corrupt practice.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Chris Pink

[Pirate Jane]

Hi Mayalid

Your points are all valid. Yes I am going to have to get a petition off the ground to prove that my business will bring benefits to the locality and that local people would like it to happen. Cheers for sensible points yet staying positive, I am not going to give up just yet! I am just about to move onto a mooring near Hebden so will be in a better position to see how things are working down there and get lots of people to like the idea!

[fuzzyduck]

I think there's an important question to be asked here..

 

Will you be serving delicious bacon butties?

[matty40s]

Heh thanks to you all for reading my post and coming up with ideas and info

 

So many replies so here is a bit more info:

I have got a business plan and submitted it to BW. (Prior to this I have already had a business which was a success so realise that I have to put in the ground work) I have discussed the idea with the council, waterscape, tourist board. I have talked to people who have a boat hire business in the area (Bronte Boats)and they are supportive I have written to everyone who is also doing this kind of thing and some have replied to offer help. I also am a member of the boat club in our local area and have many friends who live on boats in the area. Everyone is very keen for my business to happen. This isn't just a random idea, I have been wanting to do it for a long time and have a lot of support for it. As well as providing drinks and snacks to tourists in the summer ( thus encouraging people to use the canal walk )I am wanting to provide a "dish of the day" at affordable prices for the boating community all year round. The visitor moorings are for 24 hours only so I would not be using them and if I was mooring up anywhere at all I would always be gone by the time they needed to moor up for the night. I don't want to inconvenience anyone, I want to pay my trading license as well as my mooring fees and also rates as soon as the council approved the change of use of the tow path. Finally for 9 months a year the visitors moorings are not well used, in fact people live there for months at a time! (Not saying I blame them as there are not enough visitors coming here to use them.) Please keep your comments coming, I really appreciate it.

 

well done, looks like you have covered the bases there.

 

Perhaps they are worried that you will become a Continuous Cooker......

[dor]

Dor - Please can you explain what you mean, perhaps I am missing the point

 

I think Dave M has covered what my thinking was.

 

Bear in mind that you will have a lot more bureaucracy to deal with; trading license, insurance, hygiene regs, H&S and lots more.