Tring Summit closure

[LEO]

I've just been and done some dog walking at various locations, so can give an update on the situation as it appears right now.........

.

 

 

Thanks Alan, good update. I think BW will learn from this problem - Forget stop planks, back up a tipper truck and block the canal with soil.

 

Lock the gates nearby and serve notice on boaters (CC's) to move within a time frame, when the lock will be available.

 

Proceed with repairs/investigation.

 

This would have happened had it been a breach/tunnel collapse, why not now?.

 

I think we are looking at a long closure.

 

Leo.

 

PS Thanks for your details of boats moored on the 'lagoon' - one of those you counted has been moored on 14 day moorings since August 2011.

[alan_fincher]

Or have I missed a point somewhere?

No, I don't think so.

 

Normally I don't think you would sheet over stop planks.

 

Usually they swell to seal to each other, plus, as people have said, perhaps ash is dropped town to aid the process.

 

The vertical grooves in the bricks here, (just the bits you can see), are in tatters, so if that carries on below the waterline, I would have thought it could be very hard to seal the planks adequately, even at the edges.

 

Plus we can only guess what the bottom plank is bedding down into, or onto, (or not, of course!), but as local BW men suggest no planks may have been in at this location in 40 years or more, I think we can assume it may not be in the best possible condition.

 

I can't believe the sheet is making a jot of difference, as water can go freely round the edges of it, and with no level difference nothing is in any way holding it against the planks.

 

I'm wondering just how long they plan to leave it in the hope it will suddenly start doing something. If nothing has happened after (I think) a week, I can't really see it is likely to suddenly do so now. (Presumably another 60 mega-litres has been used up whilst trying ??).

[LEO]

Adding some current photos......

But Northchurch lock (49) is not only unlocked but being used.

 

 

 

For some reason there is much excess water over the gates at Northchurch. Should be helping keep levels up in Berkhamsted, at least !

 

 

Good Pics Alan,

 

Was the pump in the pumphouse (background of picture) running?.

 

This is the 'sister' pump to the one at Cowroast, pumphouse built in 1946. - not sure how they got the materials to build it as all buuilding materials were in short supply and licenced at that time.

 

Mike.

[alan_fincher]

PS Thanks for your details of boats moored on the 'lagoon' - one of those you counted has been moored on 14 day moorings since August 2011.

Yes, but that is a different issue, of course!

 

Right now I wouldn't care that much if the entire length was moored with boats that had been there a year, if it were actually usable for through navigation.

 

It does seem a bit churlish of BW to generally not do a great deal to enforce the length of time people stay at various popular locations on the summit, (or at least that would seem to be the evidence), then to start trying to collect winter mooring fees off those they have now "locked in".

 

Even if every boat currently there were an overstayer, this is one particular time it makes not a jot of difference if they are, or are not, does it, as absolutely nobody else is likely to want to moor where they are until this all reaches some kind of satisfactory conclusion.

 

Obviously different staff are involved, but would be nice if BW could concentrate on stop losing water, as only if they do, do any of us get to go boating through there this year.

 

If they want to start having greater initiatives towards "overstayers", it might be more tactful to do so on the bits of the canal that can still be navigated, and where it is useful to actually free some spots for others who might want to moor there.

 

Anyway, back to water saving, when do you chaps next get the opportunity to ask Jeff Whyatt, "OK, what happens now ?", please ?

 

Do you think it would help if he were bombarded by mails from other concerned local boaters ?

 

Was the pump in the pumphouse (background of picture) running?.

No - no sign of any action at the Northchurch pump.

 

Does anyone have any idea what can be dumping all the water into that pound that my pictures show gushing over the bottom gates ?

[carlt]

Proceed with repairs/investigation.

 

This would have happened had it been a breach/tunnel collapse, why not now?.

 

I think we are looking at a long closure.

 

I believe I have already compared this to the Blisworth tunnel closure that took 5 years to reopen.

 

If the water table has dropped, BW dropping the levels will merely dry out the exposed canal sides, introducing leaks and creating problems when (if) they raise the levels again.

 

I believe there is a serious risk of "until further notice" becoming "indefinitely".

 

The correct course of action would be to drain the pound completely and make the channel watertight. But I doubt this will happen.

[KevMc]

The correct course of action would be to drain the pound completely and make the channel watertight. But I doubt this will happen.

 

Or we could ask all the householders in the area to turn on their garden hoses and replenish the water table that they are partially responsible for lowering

[BEngo]

Good Pics Alan,

 

This is the 'sister' pump to the one at Cowroast, pumphouse built in 1946. - not sure how they got the materials to build it as all buuilding materials were in short supply and licenced at that time.

 

Mike.

 

It thought this might be in action, so causing the pound to be full , particularly as the outflow picture Alan posted looks remarkably like the outflow from the Cowroast backpump rather than the ground pump, the outflow from which I thought was underwater.

 

 

Both the Northchurch pump and the Cowroast pump were built in response to the severe shortages of water that happened during the war- so the building materials licences would have have been obtained when the canals were under Governement Control and when the end of the war in the far east was not then thought widely to be close, or because water transport used less scarce fuel than the alternatives and faciliated the transport of coal- the industrial lifeblood fuel of the time.

 

The Cowroast pump has since been renewed, but the Northchurch pump is still in original condition I think. It was when I was last in there with Ian T.

 

N

[alan_fincher]

It thought this might be in action, so causing the pound to be full , particularly as the outflow picture Alan posted looks remarkably like the outflow from the Cowroast backpump rather than the ground pump, the outflow from which I thought was underwater.

Sorry, my misconception then, possibly ?

 

So that, you think, is just a back pump around that one lock ?

 

Surely they would not be doing that if the next pound is already 9" down with boats skewed over in it......

 

...........Oh, I don't know though!................

 

I'm sure nothing was running at Northchurch pumphouse.

[BEngo]

 

Surely they would not be doing that if the next pound is already 9" down with boats skewed over in it......

 

...........Oh, I don't know though!................

 

I'm sure nothing was running at Northchurch pumphouse.

 

 

We are dealing with BW here!

 

 

The hand of Sally Ash must be somewhere in all of this- its the sort of thing she excels at.

 

N

[alan_fincher]

The hand of Sally Ash must be somewhere in all of this- its the sort of thing she excels at.

From dealings I have had with Jeff Whyatt on three different matters now, I don't think we need the added complication of Sally Ash's involvement in operational matters to! (I've had to deal with her giving what proved to be wrong answers about the CaRT council elections, and that will do for now!).

 

Sorry, Whyatt is good with the talk, but I'm afraid doesn't tend to understand what he is dealing with when it actually involves canal structure or how they operate. (My personal view, that I suspect others disagree with....).

 

Worrying times.....

[sheriff]

From dealings I have had with Jeff Whyatt on three different matters now, I don't think we need the added complication of Sally Ash's involvement in operational matters to! (I've had to deal with her giving what proved to be wrong answers about the CaRT council elections, and that will do for now!).

 

Sorry, Whyatt is good with the talk, but I'm afraid doesn't tend to understand what he is dealing with when it actually involves canal structure or how they operate. (My personal view, that I suspect others disagree with....).

 

Worrying times.....

worrying times......if this does turn into a very long closure and the summit devoid of water......to make the summit water tight...then hundreds of volunteers could help with the donkey work...I would volunteer...

 

apart from the info on here most of us are left in the dark really as how the situation is in reality......that graph says it all..I reckon theres enginners etc amongst us who have knowledge to investigate this and provide a solution... BW would fly the flag for the effort....and what will the big hire boat oufit do at linslade...restriction should of been applied last year

[BlueStringPudding]

Lisa, again please don't shoot the messenger but........

 

 

 

BW would, I'm sure argue that this stoppage has come as an emergency measure, taken to (they claim!) preserve water stocks.

 

It is not yet two weeks since the decision was taken, let alone three weeks, so giving that amount of notice without delaying the stoppage would not have been possible.

 

This was not in the public domain until Jim (Koukouvagia) made it so on Saturday 7th, when BW had not yet, I believe, formally announced.

 

You posted in this thread the same day on the topic, so could not have known any sooner about the stoppage, although I agree it seems that the announcement of the slot to allow moving out each weekend may not havew been best communicated.

 

 

 

Sorry, I missed the bit in your post where you said "I am not on the boat after tonight", so didn't see that moving it yourself on Saturday was not a possibility.

 

I guess that in any discussions with BW they might reasonably ask you, "OK, when were you going to move the boat, had this whole incident not happened, then ?". From the way you are describing things, (assuming you can’t easily do weekday moves), it rather sounds like last weekend might have been your only opportunity in the first place, if you had not going to end up being there over 14 days anyway. As you have said, (I think!) that a moving out slot was offered last weekend as well, I think you have to be prepared for them to ask “if you knew you couldn’t do it this weekend, why didn’t you last weekend ?”

 

Probably not what you want to hear, but I don’t think they will think you have a cast iron case, if I’m understanding things correctly.

 

I'm not sure if it is any way relevant or not, but so people commenting can see the fullest picture, can you please clarify whether the length of tow-path you are currently moored on is actually marked as reserved as BW winter moorings ?

 

Alan, I am indeed going to shoot the messenger so please don your bullet proof veswt

 

This week's opportunity to move through Cow Roast Lock was NOT communicated to boaters unitl yesterday. I'm sure you've read last week's BW letter to ensure you have all the facts before commenting. If not please do. The letter left on boats last week said that the canal would be closed from Wed 11th Jan, opened for the morning only on the Saturday 14th Jan, then long term closure after that. It made it quite clear that was the stoppage closed down - no more boat traffic at all. I was not at my boat from 7am Thursday 12th till about 9pm Sunday 15th (about 200 miles away) so was not in a position to make that tiny window of opportunity with such short notice to move. In fact BW's inital communications implied that there would be boats caught in that pound - no indication at all that there would be a charge levied. Similarly another boater I know was in Dunstable with his elderly mother all weekend. I texted him when I;d heard about the stoppage but he was not in a position to leave her at such short notice either. Now he and I are two of the ten or so boats stuck in teh pound.

 

The lock at Cow Roast has not been padlocked every day since Wednesday 14th January so I and the other boaters stuck here have not been able to move on, whether I or they were to take a weekday off work or not.

 

By Sunday I was resigned to the fact that I would be stuck in the pound till the stoppage ended at the end Feb/March. And like all stoppages the 14 day rule does not and cannot apply. Other boaters here stranded had accepted that too.

 

BW have now given less than 2 days notice of another 2 hour window to move the boat. This is not reasonable notice.

 

On top of that they are in essence fining those who do not or cannot move (I have seen some of the boats moored have had no-one aboard since finding out they were to be stranded for two-three months in a stoppage - they will also be invoiced despite not knowing). They like the rest of us are being fined Winter Mooring fees in a place where there are no Winter Moorings.

 

Everything about this is IMHO subversive and done in order to take as much money from boaters as possible by ensuring the majority don't have enough notice or haven't seen the notice at all.

 

My issue and has been from the beginning, is that if they had thought this through last week they could have advertised both slots that teh lock would be open, to ensure all boaters had a chance to move out of the restriction. They did not because they didn't think of it. The second slot, byt their own admittence, was in order to give everyone another chance. However because they had already prepared everyone to be stuck, no one is ready to take advantage of this second opportunity. They gave one and a half days notice of something which contradicted there previous note only days beforehand.

Edited January 20, 2012 by BlueStringPudding

[matty40s]

My take, and I know the area quite well.

 

BW should coffer the bridge, install a pump from the summit to the lagoon to lower to the required level straight away.

 

The pound below Cowroast has been leaking since 2010, BW fixed Cowroast lock, and then had to attend(if boaters didn't do it themselves)daily to allow water down to right stranded boats. How the lady in Lollapalooza stayed there for so long amazed me, she was at 30 degrees most days.

 

I would say the pound below lock 47(dudswell bottom)needs the water table monitoring as it seems that the water from the summit is keeping this filled, to capacity(or over)again much of this pound is unpuddled.

 

The last point is that BW are trying to get a couple of thousand pounds out of a few peeps by unfair and (I see) unenforceable patrol notices, when they have probably already lost 150MgL of water by their own inability to stop a problem happening.

If they don't find a solution quickly, they risk a long term stoppage which could lose tham massive revenue from licences, moorings(at their new marina), hire boat revenues, etc, etc (hey boot)

shambles isn't the word, and the last thing they should be doing is quibbling about a few unfortunate boaters, and other ones they should have dealt with a long time ago.

[alan_fincher]

Alan, I am indeed going to shoot the messenger so please don your bullet proof veswt

Lisa,

 

If you look at post 329, you will see I have said very clearly that I think it is out of order for them to exploit this situation now, when they have done very little to enforce overstaying there in the past.

 

If they needed the space to safely accommodate those who have paid for winter moorings, I might feel differently, but clearly there is oodles of space, so you are not denying anybody a slot.

 

I also accept you now can't move at the appointed time, so wish you luck with getting this sorted.

 

The lock at Cow Roast has not been padlocked every day since Wednesday 14th January so I and the other boaters stuck here have not been able to move on, whether I or they were to take a weekday off work or not.

 

I assume you mean "has been padlocked every day", though !

 

My issue and has been from the beginning, is that if they had thought this through last week they could have advertised both slots that teh lock would be open, to ensure all boaters had a chance to move out of the restriction. They did not because they didn't think of it.

 

My take is actually slightly different.......

 

When they closed things with such haste, I think at least senior management believed they had a plan to isolate the "leaky bit", and lower the level. I don't think they actually talked to enough people on the ground about whether this would work.

 

I actually think they have a canal where they are probably still putting nearly as much water in as they were 2 weeks ago, have not achieved what they expected, and that at the moment the only reason nobody can navigate from Bulbourne through to Dudswell is planks at New Ground and padlocks on gates and paddles.

 

I'm happy to be shown any evidence that says that since those measure were taken they have saved any more than a bit of lockage water, but if they have, I can't personally yet see how. I think it could have been left unlocked throughout, but with stiff warnings posted only to go out, not in.

Edited January 20, 2012 by alan_fincher

[matty40s]

looking at the outflow from northchurch lock, they obviously aren't linking seepage to overrunning water.

 

Northchurch was peeing over the gate when I went up in mid May, but I had to walk 1/2 a mile when going up dodswell top to fill the pound from the summit as I knew with my depth at the back, I would struggle. (10am ish).

 

and I agree, they didn't talk to anyone on the ground who knows the area.

[scrumpylurcher]

 

 

Sorry, Whyatt is good with the talk, but I'm afraid doesn't tend to understand what he is dealing with when it actually involves canal structure or how they operate. (My personal view, that I suspect others disagree with....).

 

Worrying times.....

Dealings I have had with Mr Whyatt over the last couple of years have not inspired me with any confidence, unfortunatly most of which originates from MK is suspect, it rarely coincides with what you see happening on the ground or gather from conversations with those operatives actually trying to carry out these instructions, so, I tend to agree with your opinion Alan

[GeoffS]

BSP. Haven't you been in the Cowroast area for at the least the last year without a permanent mooring? Why is it such an issue now that you are asked to either move or pay for a mooring?

[matty40s]

BSP. Haven't you been in the Cowroast area for at the least the last year without a permanent mooring? Why is it such an issue now that you are asked to either move or pay for a mooring?

Geoff, if BSP has been fulfilling her CC requirements and BW have been satisfied, what is it to you, who may only have see a snapshot.

I cruised in the are for a while, Cheddington,Marsworth, Tring St, Cowroast, below Cowroast,Berko, by Waitrose,Top side lock, sewer lock, winckwell, boxmoor and back up again.

I loved the area, which is why I went down, back up and down again, then moved on.

There are people who have stayed in the same pound for years, why pick on BSP, who has moved around as the guidelines require?????

[Ange]

a greenie from me Matty

[BlueStringPudding]

BSP,

 

as you will be well aware, I am something of a stickler for CCers doing just that, and regard the "as is reasonable in the circumstances" fairly narrowly, to encompass unforseen personal circumstances and short notice stoppages.

 

I have never regarded "well I need to be in an area for 4 weeks for something predictable" or " well there is a planned stoppage that I've contrived to be blocked by" as fitting the bill.

 

However, in this case I find myself unexpectedly on the side of the doves, with other forum members distinctly more hawkish.

 

Provided you can honestly say that you moved onto the summit without being aware of the impending closure, and provided you could not easily have left the summit between the closure being announced and it being implemented, you are currently trapped through no fault of your own.

 

BW are within their rights to say "well you must move on or pay", but NOT to impose such a restrictive time window.

 

I would suggest that you respond explaining that you are not able to move on that date, and that you do not wish to remain there. You should then explain that in the absence of this stoppage, you would have continued your journey on [DATE], and again on [DATE], listing all the dates on which you are able to move between now and March, and offering to move off the summit level on any of these dates if they will facilitate it, but making it clear that whilst you are fully able to maintain a cruising pattern that involves moving at least once a fortnight, and have agreed to do so, you are not able to move at a few days notice, and that if you are unable to move as expected on a particular day, you are not able simply to move on the next day.

 

NABO would probably help if you are a member. If you would like me to help with drafting a letter, let me know (and you DON'T have to join my fan club).

 

You have a fanclub!? consider me joined.

 

Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated. I have emailed British Waterways saying much as you have suggested. Interestingly the email address Philip Brogan has put on his letter to all of the boats up here, doesn't work! The Waterways server bounces it back. And I've typed it in three separate times to be sure there's no typo. So much for his request for boaters to contact him as soon as possible. Neither has he answered the phone. He's not making this easy. You'd have thought that knowing that he's only given everyone less than two days to respond, he'd be watching all communication channels closely and ensuring they work properly.

 

I have since forwarded my message to the enquiries.hq@ and the enquiries.southeast@ email addresses and asked them to forward it on to him or whomever can help.

I have also sent a separate email to Jeff Whyatt explaining the situation.

[BlueStringPudding]

BSP. Haven't you been in the Cowroast area for at the least the last year without a permanent mooring? Why is it such an issue now that you are asked to either move or pay for a mooring?

 

Next time I'm doing Marsworth Flight, or walking five miles a day when commuting from Pitstone, or having to chat up local gongoozlers to help me with the swing bridge over the lock in Fenny (never yet managed to open it on my own), I'll be sure to request your help, Geoff.

With the greatest respect I have never even met you but you've commented on this website that you've seen me in the pub. Of course you have, I know people in the area and I am working on a series of painting commissions for a boat in Cow Roast, you'll have probably seen me in the pub with the chap who has commissioned me. Cow Roast is on my bus route as well as my cruising circuit this year. I was supposed to be in the Leighton Buzzard area this winter (I'm still pointing north!) just can't go anywhere now.

I've cruised three counties just this winter and seven in the last year. But you wouldn't know that because you don't travel with me. In the last 15 months I've cruised eight or nine different waterways from the northwest and Wales through Birmingham to the southeast right across the country. All of which is entirely irrelevant to the point of this thread about the Tring Summit stoppage and the fact that any opportunity to leave was communicated in much too short a timeframe to be feasible for many.

Edited January 21, 2012 by BlueStringPudding

[BlueStringPudding]

Geoff, if BSP has been fulfilling her CC requirements and BW have been satisfied, what is it to you, who may only have see a snapshot.

I cruised in the are for a while, Cheddington,Marsworth, Tring St, Cowroast, below Cowroast,Berko, by Waitrose,Top side lock, sewer lock, winckwell, boxmoor and back up again.

I loved the area, which is why I went down, back up and down again, then moved on.

There are people who have stayed in the same pound for years, why pick on BSP, who has moved around as the guidelines require?????

 

Thanks Matty. Last time I got a ticket was when the arse fell out of my gearbox in Chester basin two years ago! There was a postal strike and it took ages for the part to be sent up from a chandlery in Southampton. When we got the ticket we invited the Waterways officer to take a look at the gearbox. Apparently she was quite impressed by the mess it was in and let us stay! Some of that oil is still sloshing about under the engine now.

[GeoffS]

Geoff, if BSP has been fulfilling her CC requirements and BW have been satisfied, what is it to you, who may only have see a snapshot.

I cruised in the are for a while, Cheddington,Marsworth, Tring St, Cowroast, below Cowroast,Berko, by Waitrose,Top side lock, sewer lock, winckwell, boxmoor and back up again.

I loved the area, which is why I went down, back up and down again, then moved on.

There are people who have stayed in the same pound for years, why pick on BSP, who has moved around as the guidelines require?????

 

All of which is entirely irrelevant to the point of this thread about the Tring Summit stoppage and the fact that any opportunity to leave was communicated in much too short a timeframe to be feasible for many.

 

Sorry I wasn't trying to pick on anyone, I just asked a genuine question of someone who was commenting on here about the arrangements being made to leave the closed section.

[Ray]

I'm still not totally convinced that BW have got things right (unless I misunderstand how some of these things work, which is always possible and highly probable).

 

I presume their means of metering lock usage relies on a device that measures how often water reaches a specific level in the chamber. Surely, this won't measure any leakage that flows straight through the chamber when the lock is (effectively) empty. Whilst I didn't use the Marsworth flight too much in 2011, I did for the 20 plus previous years. From memory few of the chambers in the flight held their water for any significant time period although I do recognise that some have been re-gated recently. Lock 39 certainly leaks heavily and seems to have defied all attempts by BW to at least resolve the problems with the top gates - I'm not aware of any attempt to stop water flowing around the top offside gate, water that can clearly be seen flowing into the chamber around the heel post when you're descending in the lock and the level has dropped.

 

Are they still pumping from Tringford? If not, has the water now found its own level because it doesn't seem to have dropped that much over the last few days judging by all the pictures that have been posted on here and from what I believe I read, pumping from the borehole has only just resumed.

 

Whilst the water level isn't ideal I've seen it at least this bad on a fairly frequent basis in years gone by and have cruised the summit many times with a laden trip boat, at no more than tickover because of the limited depth.

 

Perhaps the summit problem isn't quite as bad as is made out. I'd suggest that the limited amount of locally stored water appears to be far more of a problem that I can't see a means of resolving unless we have an extensive period of wet weather. Is all this nonsense about the summit intended to take our eye off the fact that poor water level monitoring in the reservoirs has meant that they are far far lower now than they should be because they didn't impose restrictions when they should have done so to save face after saying that they wouldn't need to?

[tree]

Next time I'm doing Marsworth Flight, or walking five miles a day when commuting from Pitstone, or having to chat up local gongoozlers to help me with the swing bridge over the lock in Fenny (never yet managed to open it on my own), I'll be sure to request your help, Geoff.

With the greatest respect I have never even met you but you've commented on this website that you've seen me in the pub. Of course you have, I know people in the area and I am working on a series of painting commissions for a boat in Cow Roast, you'll have probably seen me in the pub with the chap who has commissioned me. Cow Roast is on my bus route as well as my cruising circuit this year. I was supposed to be in the Leighton Buzzard area this winter (I'm still pointing north!) just can't go anywhere now.

I've cruised three counties just this winter and seven in the last year. But you wouldn't know that because you don't travel with me. In the last 15 months I've cruised eight or nine different waterways from the northwest and Wales through Birmingham to the southeast right across the country. All of which is entirely irrelevant to the point of this thread about the Tring Summit stoppage and the fact that any opportunity to leave was communicated in much too short a timeframe to be feasible for many.

Have as many greenies as you want from me :)Although I am sure that the only people, that you have to give an account of your travels to are BWB